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W's tax plan

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Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
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You still haven't answered the question Orbius, why does giving "rich people" some of their money cause inflation? Please, be specific. After all, the money given back to "the rich" is money that was already in circulation. It's just going back to the people that earned it.

This outta be interesting.....
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
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<< Deeko - You're 16, so you deserve a break. Assuming you earn a few thousand, you have the option of having your parents report the income on their tax return (usually a bad idea) or you reporting it on your own return (usually a much better idea). If your parents report it, they will almost certainly have to pay tax on it. If you report it separately, at least some will escape taxes, and the rest would likely get taxed at a rate not greater than 15%. However, you might also have to pay other taxes as well. >>


I used to work at McDonald's when I was 14, so I had money taken out then, and I had to fill out my own return. If you were under 18, and made under a certain amount(it was either 4 or 10,000, I forget), you either didn't pay anything or you got what was taken out back. So, I really don't feal like filling out a return this year, because I didn't have anything taxed already, and what's the purpose of me filling out the return if it's just gonna say that I owe nothing?
 

Orbius

Golden Member
Oct 13, 1999
1,037
0
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The article explains it nicely, if theres more money out there, the only way that the economy can keep up is by producing more or importing more. Given the added costs of producing in todays environment, the outcome is inflation.
 

DefRef

Diamond Member
Nov 9, 2000
4,041
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The tax cuts should be RETROACTIVE to the beginning of this year, not &quot;phased in&quot; like the liberals would like to see (if they can't kill it outright.)

No one has announced that they're gonna refuse their refunds, so I guess yer ALL greedy.

As to paying off the debt: A lot of the debt is in bonds that aren't due yet, so why pay them off before it's necessary?

Anytime you buy into the argument that some people don't deserve tax cuts because they would get a larger dollar amount than a minimum wage worker are so clueless as to the injustice of the tax code that it's futile to even try and explain it. But, for those not visually inspecting their colons, here's something to chew on.

Several years back, as part of the &quot;soak the rich&quot; policies of the last gang, they passed a surtax on luxury items costing over (I think) $40,000. The idea was to ding the peeps buying Mercedes and yachts. In fact, it became referred to as the &quot;yacht tax&quot;. If someone can afford a boat that costs more than a good house, then screw 'em! Right?

Wrong.

The tax only applied to US made boats, so the evil rich went overseas to buy their boats and the American boatyards shut down and laid off their workers. So much for punishing the rich, eh? They got their boats, saved on the taxes and working people were thrown out of their jobs. Who says that the Democrats don't care about the little guy?[/sarcasm] (I've learned from Corn's problems and will label my sarcasm.)

The Dems in their Big Lie propaganda campaign keep saying that the rich will get a Lexus from the tax cut, but convenient forget to say that they'll still be coughing up EIGHT LEXUSES (Lexi?) in Federal taxes afterwards. Now, because Tom Daschele and Little Dick Gephardt want to take away the rich people's desserts, they're stealing the meat loaf off the tables of the &quot;working class&quot;.

The need to punish success is disgusting and shameful. How is the government going to put that money to better use? The liberals don't even care, because it's enough that someone's getting their pockets picked to make them happy. Businesses not being started; employees not hired (and paying their own taxes); products not being purchased (and thus, not being made) because of the tax bite don't concern these people in the least. It's all about the Benjamins and making sure that the evil rich get soaked. Bah!

I think that this tax cut is too small and that government is too large and resent that Dubya has to play this bullchit game to try and get this much, but when the public is as ignorant to reality and deceived by the media as they are, it's the only way anything will happen.

The media is already carrying the liberal water by referring to the &quot;cuts&quot; that the Dubya budget has when it's really just reductions in the rate of increase. (4% vs. 8% more than the current level.)

Here's an example: You make $10/hr. and plan on getting a $2/hr. raise next year. You only get $1/hr. raise. Did you get an pay raise or a pay cut?

The Truth is you got a 10% increase, but the liberal media and Democrats (same thing) will call it a 50% CUT!!!

(The public hears these lies and worries that the poor will starve and they might have to feel guilty about it and call the GOP &quot;mean-spirited&quot; and oppose tax cuts, etc. Pathetic, eh?)

Back to the example: If you made you budget plans (rent, car, bills, vacation) based on your assumption that you'd get a $2 raise and only got $1, what do you do? Do you get to rob the boss for the extra money or do you scale back your plans? (Go out to restaurants less often, go to Cedar Point instead of Disneyland, get the SLS instead the SLT package, etc.)

Why do you support the government's ability to mug you whenever it gets short on cash instead of reprioritizing it's expenditures? There's tons of pork and corporate welfare and other crap that could be cut, but isn't because politicians have convinced you that we'll all die in government does less. You balance your books, make the government do so too!
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,505
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Def - Sorry to burst your bubble, but the 10-year phase-in is all part of GWB's plan. The only change he suggested was to have the first phase start this year rather than next year. You lie well though, even when you have no idea what you're talking about. After reading your blatant lie, it's hard to believe any of your spew.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Damn, where's the link to the &quot;phase in&quot; curve for the family of 4 making $50,000? I'm still waiting to see what you Dems consider a pittance, not even worth the trouble.

DefRef is quite right about the Democrat mind set. A party built on a foundation of envy. Yeah, I want to be a part of that. If I can't succeed, then nobody should! I'll drag the whole country down with me if I have to! :|
 

mundania

Senior member
Jun 17, 2000
921
0
0
I don't know about you guys, but this tax plan doesn't seem so bad right now. I don't relate to any party, but when I see the economy the way it is, putting money in people's pockets doesn't seem like such a bad idea. But it'll only help the economy if people will SPEND.

But that's only what I learned from AP econonomics. If there's someone with in depth about knowledge about how national economics works, I'd like to hear what you have to say on it. =D
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
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Here is what GWB's crew has to say on it:
  • The President's Agenda for Tax Relief

    Over the past several months, the economy has slowed dramatically. President Bush?s tax cut will give the economy a timely second wind by placing more money in the hands of consumers and entrepreneurs. President Bush also understands that, over the long run, wealth is created by hard-working, risk-taking individuals, not government programs. Countries with low taxes, limited regulation, and open trade grow faster, create more jobs, and enjoy higher standards of living than countries with bigger, more centralized governments and higher taxes. The United States has led the way in economic performance over the last century because America is a freer country. If people are given the freedom to create, they do. If people are given a stake in the outcome, they succeed.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Thanks jjm, that rocks!
  • A working married couple with three children under the age of 18 and an income of $55,000. The husband earns $35,000; the wife earns $20,000. They have itemized deductions worth $8,000.

    Federal income tax under current law: $3,454
    Federal income tax under Bush plan: $100
    Savings as a result of Bush plan: $3,354 (or 97%)
 

DefRef

Diamond Member
Nov 9, 2000
4,041
1
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Uh, jjm...WTF are you talking about?!? Why are you calling ME a liar, when it's YOU who can't read?!?!? If you go back and read ALL my words and you'll see I said:

&quot;The tax cuts should be RETROACTIVE to the beginning of this year,&quot;[/i]

Should...SHOULD...SHOULD BE!!!! Not &quot;ARE&quot;, but SHOULD!!!

Why do you sound so muffled?

Oh, your pants are still on.

Typical liberal stuff...misrepresent something out of context and try to discredit the whole based on the fabrication. (Too bad those nagging FACTS got in the way.)
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,505
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Def bold-faced lie:&quot; The tax cuts should be RETROACTIVE to the beginning of this year, not &quot;phased in&quot; like the liberals would like to see (if they can't kill it outright.)&quot;

Ornery - You wanted proof that the proposed tax cut would be phased-in , and that is what GWB's plan included all along, and I provided it. Still can't admit you did not even know the basic outline of the plan, can you?
 

C'DaleRider

Guest
Jan 13, 2000
3,048
0
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<< Several years back, as part of the &quot;soak the rich&quot; policies of the last gang, they passed a surtax on luxury items costing over (I think) $40,000. The idea was to ding the peeps buying Mercedes and yachts. In fact, it became referred to as the &quot;yacht tax&quot;. If someone can afford a boat that costs more than a good house, then screw 'em! Right? >>



DefRef........you do realize that &quot;soak the rich&quot; tax plan was introduced by George Bush, Sr, right? It was part of his &quot;Read my lips...No new taxes!&quot; pledge.


It was easy for Bush's number-crunchers to craft a plan that lived up to his campaign promises. Since Bush announced his tax cut in December 1999, the Congressional Budget Office revised its surplus projection four times. When Bush first proposed his $1.6 trillion tax cut, the CBO was projecting that the surplus, excluding Social Security revenues, was only about $200 billion over 10 years. Four forecasts later, the CBO raised this projection to $3.1 trillion, a number White House forecasters agree with. But even with this additional wiggle room, an examination of the blueprint' s fine print?and even more important, the missing print?makes clear that Bush can't keep his campaign promises and balance the books.

To calm the concern that his tax cut will crowd out other popular government programs, in his speech Bush highlighted major increases in areas like education, Medicare, and Social Security. While the Democrats propose to devote one-third of the projected surplus to spending increases, Bush matched them by devoting one-third of his address to investments in priorities. But his numbers don't match the words. Take two examples:

1) In his speech, Bush said, &quot;We increase spending next year for Social Security and Medicare, and other entitlement programs, by $81 billion.&quot; But under current law?without Bush's proposals?spending on these programs is projected to rise by $68 billion. All Bush is proposing is to add $13 billion for Medicare prescription drugs?enough to pay an average of only $250 per Medicare beneficiary for drug coverage.

2) Bush also touted his increase in nonentitlement spending, saying &quot;We've increased spending for discretionary programs by a very responsible 4 percent, above the rate of inflation.&quot; But for very technical reasons, the CBO estimates that government spending will need to increase by 4.4 percent in 2002 to pay for inflationary increases. Bush's spending will actually fall short of the amount needed for inflation.

When President Reagan submitted his first economic plan to Congress, it was filled with pages and pages of details of the programs that would be cut. Bush, however, only provides details about his proposed spending increases. The reductions are relegated to a footnote in Table S-4, &quot;The final distribution of offsets has yet to be determined.&quot; The so-called &quot;magic asterisk&quot; was a common technique for solving deficits in the bad old days. What is worrisome is that even with a projected surplus of $5.6 trillion, Bush still needs about $230 billion in &quot;magic asterisk&quot; savings.

The Bushies have recently added a new selling point to their budget: After paying for all their promises, they claim to set aside a prudent $1 trillion in a &quot;contingency fund&quot; to address unforeseen expenses. In the new budget, the $1 trillion reserve has actually shrunk to $842 billion. And even this overstates the resources set aside. This reserve would only cover about $675 billion of additional spending?with the remainder paying the higher interest bill that resulted from this spending.

Not quite the promised trillion dollars, but this substantial sum is still a great answer to any question. What if the budget forecasts are off? The reserve. Where is the money for missile defense? The reserve. How about Social Security? The reserve. And so on. The challenge comes when you have to answer all of these questions simultaneously.

If the promised?but unspecified?$230 billion in cuts are not realized, then these will have to come out of the reserve. Any increase in programs like air traffic control and education to keep pace with population growth would take another $100 billion-plus out of the reserve. In addition, the Bushies' tax reform cuts some corners to save money. For example, not changing the Alternative Minimum Tax would eventually cheat more than 25 million families out of their promised tax cuts, according to Congress' Joint Tax Committee. Restoring this tax cut and fixing other tax issues would take another $300 billion. There goes the reserve, without spending a dime on missile defense, farm payments, the more generous prescription drug benefit that Congress is clamoring for, or the retroactive tax cuts endorsed by Bush.

And this is just the small change. The big stuff comes when you examine 1) Medicare and 2) Social Security individual accounts.

In its first major legislative action this year, the House voted 407-2 to create a Medicare lockbox that would require the government to use excess Medicare payroll tax receipts to pay down the debt rather than using the money to pay for tax cuts or spending increases. According to the Office of Management and Budget's new estimates, complying with the commitment in this legislation would take a $526 billion chunk out of the reserve.

Remarkably, under legislation passed by the House, President Bush can't send his new budget blueprint to Congress because it bans the president from submitting a budget that uses the Medicare surplus for anything other than debt reduction.

If the Senate passes the lockbox?which it did with only one dissenting vote last year?then more than half of the reserve will be gone.

Social Security individual accounts pose an even bigger problem for Bush's ledger. Bush has consistently avoided specifics on the cost of his proposal, the source of its funding, or any future benefit cuts. His budget document maintains that streak. While the Bush budget is filled with prose about the benefits of individual accounts, a reader who only perused the tables would have no idea that Bush supports partially privatizing Social Security?it is simply not reflected in the numbers.

Last night Bush outlined a third way on Social Security: &quot;Without reform, this country will one day awaken to a stark choice: Either a drastic rise in payroll taxes or a radical cut in retirement benefits. There is a better way. This spring I will form a presidential commission to reform Social Security.&quot; Only a bold leader could pass off a commission as a &quot;better way.&quot;

There is nothing wrong with deferring decisions and details until later, but Bush's economists didn't leave any money for the commission to work with. Since the existing Social Security surplus is already being used to pay benefits for current and future retirees, to divert some of this surplus into individual accounts without bankrupting Social Security earlier requires either benefit cuts or tax increases.

To avoid these unpalatable options will require more money, which is the route taken by most congressional plans to partially privatize Social Security. But there is no set-aside for Social Security reform in Bush's blueprint. The commission will be forced to compete for the $6 billion reserve with all of the other costs that have been deferred and unmentioned in this budget.

Bush argues that we should do as much debt reduction as possible. Sounds responsible. But in Bush's case, this is actually an argument that the government must dissipate at least $3.5 trillion of the surplus?which he proposes to do through new spending, tax cuts, and Social Security individual accounts.

Here's why it's not responsible. Over the next decade, the projected surplus totals $5.6 trillion. Bush's economists reckon that paying back all of the debt that comes due between today and 2011 would cost about $2 trillion. They invoke Alan Greenspan to argue that paying back any more debt would require buying Treasury bonds from their holders before they come due, a potentially costly step. Since $2 trillion is the maximum amount of the surplus that can be used for debt reduction, and Bush has rejected allowing the government to use any additional surplus to buy stocks and corporate bonds, it follows that the government must spend the remaining roughly $3.5 trillion.

There are, however, several flaws in the Bush numbers. If you are willing to allow the government to use some of its surplus to buy stocks and bonds that could be sold in 20 or 30 years to pay the baby boomers' bills, then there is no limit on how much money could be set aside today. Also, by managing its finances well, the Treasury could probably manage to pay off at least $2.5 trillion of debt over the next decade. Furthermore, when the promises listed in Bush's budget numbers are combined with the additional costs discussed above, so much of the surplus is spent that the problem of paying off too much debt is deferred for at least a decade?without even spending any money on Social Security individual accounts.

The problem of paying off the debt is the only long-run challenge that is squarely addressed in Bush's budget blueprint. But it is the only long-run challenge that America can afford to delay addressing. Budget forecasts are amazingly fickle. We can wait five years to find out if there is a serious risk of paying off the debt. But other long-range needs and challenges?like adequate spending on core government functions and Social Security solvency?are predictable and, in Bush's blueprint, largely deferred.



 

C'DaleRider

Guest
Jan 13, 2000
3,048
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George W. Bush has an argument that he thinks clinches the case for his $2.1 billion tax cut, or as he calls it, his $1.6 billion tax cut. The argument is the budget surplus is &quot;the people's money.&quot; The federal government is taking in more than it needs. So it should give the extra cash back to the people who pay the taxes.

&quot;This surplus is not the government's money,&quot; he said in a characteristic line yesterday in Council Bluffs, Iowa. &quot;It's the people's money. And I believe we ought to listen to the people of America and share that money with the people who pay the bills.&quot; This is only one example of dozens of similar constructs. In his budget message to Congress, Bush said he was merely demanding a &quot;refund&quot; on behalf of taxpayers.

Democrats are having some trouble coming up with a snappy comeback to this bit of demagoguery. They don't want to argue with Bush too directly lest they lend credence to the Republican calumny that they think all money belongs to the government. Liberals are desperately afraid to offer an answer that smacks of the view that Bush claims they hold, which is that the surplus is really the government's money.

Opponents of the Bush tax cut might be able to respond more effectively if they focused on the grammatical sleight of hand implicit in his comments. The president invariably refers to the budget surplus in the first- or second-person plural possessive--it's &quot;our money&quot; or &quot;your money.&quot; But he tends to describe the deficit and other public obligations in the third-person singular or plural. Washington--or merely &quot;they&quot;--will spend all our hard-earned money if &quot;we&quot; don't stop them.

But who is this they Bush keeps talking about? It's none other than you, the people, of course. Bush is fully capable of acknowledging this on other occasions, such as when he points out that the White House is &quot;your&quot; house, not his house. But for apparent reasons, he tends not to use the first- or the second-person formulation when he's talking about the national debt or the cost of his missile defense system. He never notes that it's the people's multitrillion dollar debt or military hardware that you need to buy yourself in coming years. If he did, you might wonder whether it made sense to take back the money you're going to need to pay for that stuff.

To argue with Bush, Democrats don't need to make a case that the surplus isn't &quot;your&quot; money. They need to explain that to whatever extent you think of the surplus as your money, you should also think of the government's obligations and undertakings as yours as well. If the surplus belongs to you, so does the national debt. It's that big line of revolving credit you and a couple of hundred million other people began drawing down in the 1980s. Similarly, the most pressing demands for increases in government spending, such as increases in military salaries, or the demand for prescription drugs for the elderly, or money to pay for educational testing in every year of grade schools, are the big purchases you're planning on making in the next few years. The long-term obligations of Social Security and Medicare are your long-term liabilities.

In addition to questioning Bush's numbers, Democrats might do well to extend his rhetorically effective personalization of public finance. Of course it's your money, they could say. Unfortunately, you've already spent most of it.

 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
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I said I wanted a link to prove whether Bush's tax cut wouldn't &quot;amount to anything&quot; for you. That was for Ferocious. You chime in and say that it will be &quot;so small&quot; that... what? It's not worth the trouble, or what. I still don't see what you consider to be &quot;so small&quot;. There's no break down of the curve from one year to the next. I'm waiting for the numbers to be spelled out for that family earning $50,000 with 2 kids. I'm looking for a break down such as year:
  1. $700.00
  2. $800.00
  3. $900.00
  4. $1,000.00
  5. $1,100.00
  6. $1,200.00
  7. $1,500.00
  8. $2,000.00
  9. $2,500.00
  10. $3,000.00
I have no idea! Since you two seem to know it won't amount to much, you must have some source to prove it. Otherwise, there's $14,700.00 total over that 10 year scenario that you consider to not &quot;amount to anything till towards the end of the 10-years.&quot; What do you got?
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
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C'DaleRider, thanks for the awesome effort, but I'd like to know what you think of just plain reducing the spending? Figure out what is critical on our priority list and slash the hell out of the rest. No politician is going to dwell on that, because it would obviously cost votes. The Dems are willing to go along with a one trillion dollar cut and the GOP is at one and a half trillion. If either budget came up short, I'd rather see cuts to programs than more taxes added.

I'll go along with the &quot;our money, our bills&quot; argument. But in my personal budget, I cut spending when the money is thin. How about you?
 

shifrbv

Senior member
Feb 21, 2000
981
1
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I found these statements from Tax Planet interesting.

&quot;The Bush tax plan is like one of those mail advertisements that says, 'you have already won the big prize.' It's only when you read the fine print that you find out you would get much less than is advertised.&quot;

&quot;Governor Bush has advertised his tax plan as simple: 'If you pay income tax, you get a tax cut.' But the governor's statements disagree with the facts regarding his tax plan. The fact of the matter is millions of taxpayers will not receive any tax reduction from the Bush plan. Millions and millions more will get less than they think because Bush decided to use the fine print of the AMT to reduce the cost of the reductions promised in the big print of his proposal.&quot;

AMT &quot;Time Bomb&quot;

Even without any change in the tax law, the number of taxpayers affected by the alternative minimum tax is expected to skyrocket over the next 10 years.

That's because the exemption that is supposed to protect most Americans from being subject to the AMT isn't adjusted for inflation.

Most taxpayers were supposed to be protected from the AMT by a large exemption ($45,000 on a joint return, $33,750 for singles and heads-of-household.) But because the exemption isn't adjusted for inflation, the AMT claims more victims each year as wages rise with inflation.

As a result, the number of taxpayers affected by the AMT is expected to jump from about 1 million this year to 14.7 million in the year 2010, according to the Joint Tax Committee study.&quot;

I think it's rather funny how people are clamoring for the cut. I'll be laughing even harder when they repeal it when the government can't pay our bills. I believe Reagan had the largest tax cut in history, followed shortly by the largest tax increase in history. Ha, ha.
 

DefRef

Diamond Member
Nov 9, 2000
4,041
1
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jjm: Your voice is still muffled (and the Preperation H is wearing off.) All you've done is say I'm lying, but haven't said what the lie is, so until you explain what I'm supposedly lying about, I'll assume that you're just trying to avoid the facts for the liberal spin. Feel free to clarify what I'm &quot;lying&quot; about. Selective highlightiing is not arguing.

C'DaleRider: Daddy Bush got rooked by the DEMOCRATS. He lost his job as a result. Just desserts for someone foolish enough to believe that Democrats would ever hold up their end of the deal. It's the same thing that happened to Reagan. Taxes were cut, revenues doubled and SPENDING tripled, due to the Democrats spendthrift proclivities.

Also, where did you cut and paste your posts from?

The Democrats are going to try and force &quot;triggers&quot; to be built into any tax deal that would cancel tax cuts if the budget appears to be going into deficit. Sounds reasonable, right? Well, it's not because it'll allow the Democrats to overspend and then point to the shortfall as a reason to cancel the tax cuts. How convenient.:|

Everyone on the Left is trying to confuse the issue by hurling slanted numbers around to prop up the corrupt notion that government is the only trustworthy guardian of our money and lives.

There are two kinds of people in this argument: Those who believe those who earn the money should have say over how it's spent and those who believe that the government leviathan must be fed at all costs and in control of human behavior. Why else is there opposition to abolishing the estate taxes? The only arguments given are that rich folk should give to charity and that trust fund babies are annoying and we should work the tax codes to &quot;encourage&quot; them to doing the will of the grasping hands.

I see that the ultra-rich are being trotted out to say that they don't want the estate tax repealed. Who cares?!? If they feel that the government should hack a 55% hunk out of their fortune, then they can tell their attorneys to reword their wills to give up the buckage to Uncle Sam. It's as if they're saying, &quot;If we aren't forced to give money away, then we'll keep it for ourselves. Please save us from our greed!&quot; Bollocks!
 

DefRef

Diamond Member
Nov 9, 2000
4,041
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shifrbv: Please provide links to the comments you quoted. Are they from a forum or what. All the articles I glanced at seem balanced, where we know that you're a hard-Left liberal.
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,505
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IIIBradIII - Huh?

Ornery - Not once did I state, imply, or agree with anyone who said that the cuts were too small to matter. You asked for a link to prove they are to be phased in over time, and I provided proof. The phase-in has been part of GWB's plan from the start. You appear to have not known that. Have you read his plan, or are you one of those who relies on what others tell you that you should know?

Also, GWB has proposed cuts in other programs to pay for his priorities. One of the largest percentage cuts is from the Small Business Administration, and small businessses are howling about it.

And during the campaign GWB himself suggested that the cuts should be linked to continuing surpluses. He used it prominently in one of the debates with Gore.

Def - Look back. I cited (in bold) exactly what your lie was. The &quot;liberals&quot; are not endorsing the phase-in at all, it was built in to GWB's plan all along. Where exactly were you not lying with that statement?

C'DaleRider - Great post. Def can't comprehend that anyone has the intelligence to have actually read the full GWB proposal. I read it too and I know exactly where your points are coming from. Notice that Ornery challenged you on a tangential issue. He could not refute even one of your points on how the numbers stack up, and others will fail as well. That's because the numbers don't work.

I agree about the attempts at smoke screens being practiced by the new &quot;more open and honest&quot; administration. You find one single reference to a phase-in period on tax cuts in the main body of the text, and it is not defined. You have to dig far to discover that it will take ten years for the full plan to roll out.

People don't get it. It has to start slowly because the big surpluses are not projected to happen for three or more years. GWB can't cut too much too soon or he'll run up the debt again. His budget assumes that we'll have 3% GDP growth every year for the next ten. The 4th quarter of 2000 was an annualized 1.1% growth rate, and Greenspan stated that he thinks we are at or near zero right now. According to the CBO, each 1% reduction in growth reduces expected non-Social Security surpluses by $750 billion. Wonder how much longer the current sluggish growth rate will delay the big surpluses from happening? And how much faith does any competent business person put in to any projections more than three years out, even past one year?

Start paying down the debt as fast as possible now, do a limited tax cut today, and, if the surpluses happen, there will be plenty left for a meaningful tax cut in five years. If the money is locked in to debt reduction, it won't be available for increased spending either. If surpluses don't happen, at least the economy will be free of the drag from the debt. That's the same advice we'd give any family or business that spent years borrowing too much.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,747
6,762
126
There's a good chance that the real intent of Bush's tax plan is to cause deficit spending. With a deficit rather than a surplus, it will be easier to eliminate government programs that are untouchable now.
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,505
0
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No, I don't think he wants to cause deficits, but I also think he doesn't care if deficits are a result of giving his right-wing base a nice fat tax break.

It would be more responsible to wait several years, but he has to start on re-election now!
 

DefRef

Diamond Member
Nov 9, 2000
4,041
1
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I also meant (after your bolding) that they didn't really want any tax cuts and that they would accept a phase-in (if they had to) so that they could use triggers as a means to sabotage the whole sheebang. If I was unclear in my wording, then I apologize, but to call me a liar is a deperation tactic of someone disinterested in the truth and only looking to cheaply attempt to discredit an opponent.

My arguments are simple and consistent with my libertarian principles: It's wrong to steal from the producers to create dependencies in others. Government has usurped many roles that should and used to be provided by the private sector and they (both parties) have positioned themselves as the guardians of the weak when they are, in fact, the tyranny that oppresses those who look to government for salvation.

Any tortured arguments to the contrary are just lofty rationales for the enslavement of the many for the power of the few. This is evil and it must be opposed. Reasonable people may differ as to what shape the cage should be, but it's still a cage.