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It's absurd to think that somebody that is a hard mode dedicated raider doing 10+ hours a night raid progression should get the basically same gear as a brain dead moron rolling his face on his keyboard in lfr. I mean why even call it epic when all you do is hand it out to everybody and everything.

That sort of sums up in a nutshell why I only played WoW for a year, and why I can't play MMOs that aren't built around some core PVP mechanic. PVP is organic and unpredictable. PVE can only be a clockwork trip through a theme park, and the idea that anyone would find "10+ hours a night raid progression" a fun thing to do for recreation boggles my mind. I mean, I like a little PVE for loot, and mats, and skill levels or whatever. It can be relaxing. But if it isn't part of getting ready to go out and beat the other team it just doesn't seem meaningful.
 
Am I playing a different game than some of you? I'm level 85 and have a few epics that I got from Cata quests or from Hyjal vendors. But apparently there are epic vendors that I haven't found yet. I've been using the group finder to do random Cata dungeons and get the occasional blue upgrade to the quest green I have. I've tried some Heroic Cata dungeons and had mixed success. Some groups are decent, others wipe repeatedly because the tank won't keep stuff off my resto Shaman. Apparently there are certain dungeons where you can just stand there and get epics showered on you without trying. Please let me know which ones.

I've started saving up Justice points to start buying some stuff from the quartermasters, but you have to seriously grind dungeons to get those points. Clearly there must be a trick that I haven't found to get the same gear as raiders after just a couple days.

Maybe there's a welfare office in Goldshire that I haven't found yet?

You have to hit lvl cap sunny before it rains epics. Do you have mop yet?
 
I'd guess that Blizzard would make the argument that if they hadn't catered so much to the casuals, they may have kept the hardcore raiders but lost even greater numbers overall as the casual players got bored.
 
Am I playing a different game than some of you? I'm level 85 and have a few epics that I got from Cata quests or from Hyjal vendors.

Wait until you experience the AFK-fest that is Looking For Raid. LFR is a rather annoying experience for any competent player. I watched as a guy doing less DPS than either tank win a DPS item over me. I don't mind losing an item to a decent player, but when the guy is an absolute waste of heals in a raid -- his gear was a mish-mash of garbage designed to hit the right iLevel requirement -- wins it over me? I'm not pleased.

Ulduar was still a failure. It was harder than Naxx (and required Naxx gear) and the non Hardmodes still couldn't be done by the majority of players. The trash in some of the areas was too hard for most players. Plus, Yogg (even 4 light) had mechanics 99% of the community couldn't grasp.

He's talking as a raid dungeon, and I agree with him. Ulduar was a very good raid. Although, I wasn't really a big fan of Flame Leviathan myself, but it wasn't too bad overall.

Why are you ignoring the truth of the matter? Some people just aren't good enough! My guild spent around a month on normal Hodir, because people couldn't get into snow mounds, and they ended up getting frozen. Yes, we spent four weeks with three raid nights a week at three hours each on Hodir.

Which is another huge failure they try to combat with "welfare epics" and the elites get upset. If you didn't start raiding at or near the start of the expansion, the content after the beginning raid was inaccessible and nobody did it anymore. If you didn't start in Kara, you weren't doing SSC, and then you weren't doing Hyjal, TK, or Black Temple. And WotLK was worse. If you didn't start with Nax, but the time ToC came out, you weren't doing Ulduar or Nax because nobody else was (at least not until the weekly came out). Eventually, only ICC was getting PUG'd on a regular basis with guild selling drakes from Ulduar.

Burning Crusade raiding had another big problem that I think you're ignoring: attunements. At its core, attunements weren't a terrible idea, but they became a cascading problem because to get attuned to one raid, you had to do the previous one. That combined with gear created a rather large predicament for raiding guild recruitment. You could take your chance with a player and spend some time getting them up to speed, or you could just steal players from other guilds. I saw the latter happen quite a bit!
 
He's talking as a raid dungeon, and I agree with him. Ulduar was a very good raid. Although, I wasn't really a big fan of Flame Leviathan myself, but it wasn't too bad overall.

Why are you ignoring the truth of the matter? Some people just aren't good enough! My guild spent around a month on normal Hodir, because people couldn't get into snow mounds, and they ended up getting frozen. Yes, we spent four weeks with three raid nights a week at three hours each on Hodir.
I loved Ulduar as a raid dungeon. I thought it was amazing. I liked the lore and the encounters. I do agree the hardmodes were good.

Burning Crusade raiding had another big problem that I think you're ignoring: attunements. At its core, attunements weren't a terrible idea, but they became a cascading problem because to get attuned to one raid, you had to do the previous one. That combined with gear created a rather large predicament for raiding guild recruitment. You could take your chance with a player and spend some time getting them up to speed, or you could just steal players from other guilds. I saw the latter happen quite a bit!
Attunements were a big problem. Which was another good thing "casualization" brought into WoW. Removing that god awful crap of having to spend the time to go do some long, annoying attunement process.
 
Attunements were a big problem. Which was another good thing "casualization" brought into WoW. Removing that god awful crap of having to spend the time to go do some long, annoying attunement process.[/QUOTE]

Do you want your doctor to have to take classes at a school or just walk in from off the street to diagnose you? They where put into place to keep not geared enough players out and the casuals that don't know how to play out. Blizzard please bring attunements back.
 
Do you want your doctor to have to take classes at a school or just walk in from off the street to diagnose you? They where put into place to keep not geared enough players out and the casuals that don't know how to play out. Blizzard please bring attunements back.

And you know what they did? Nothing but fracture the community that pays for the game. Again, how many people do you think made it into Sunwell? BT? TK? Hyjal? Very, very, very few. I would wager less than 50,000 players made it past Brutallus before WotLK.

Attunements did nothing but stop players who weren't already in guilds from getting into guilds or raiding. It had nothing to do with "keeping the bads out" because the bads were still in. No?

I am glad the level of creating effective analogies has gone up on AT... :eyeroll:
 
LFR drops have been random and non compete since before MOP. No more rolls against others, so their presence is irrelevant. Theoretically everyone could win a piece of loot on each boss.

As long as the boss dies who cares about individual contribution in lfr? If you really care that much just put the people afking or performing poorly on ignore, then you won't be grouped with them again. Or don't do lfr?

The timeless isle 496 or 535 crap is utter shit, and people soon to be rocking heroic soo gear shouldn't feel threatened by it, or even normal raiders. The lfr soo gear will be relatively shit as well and it will take forever to get a complete set. The only legit complaint is maybe lfr getting the same set bonuses.

I got a free 5 days email and ran around the timeless isle for a bit over the weekend. The last patch is probably the best time to return, i guess. If anyone didn't know already, you can buy a vendor glider and access the chests near ordos without the legendary cloak, for a guaranteed 535 upgrade token.
 
And you know what they did? Nothing but fracture the community that pays for the game. Again, how many people do you think made it into Sunwell? BT? TK? Hyjal? Very, very, very few. I would wager less than 50,000 players made it past Brutallus before WotLK.

Attunements did nothing but stop players who weren't already in guilds from getting into guilds or raiding. It had nothing to do with "keeping the bads out" because the bads were still in. No?

I am glad the level of creating effective analogies has gone up on AT... :eyeroll:

There where tons of raiding guilds that had nights where they would do attunement runs. If you really wanted to get attuned you could. But the problem is casuals want everything handed to them with the least amount of work possible.

Sure only a small player base got to see the end game content but it was the ones who did where skilled enough to clear it. Do you think the trash in lfr today could kill anything back in sunwell? Answer is hell no and they would wipe on trash.
 
There where tons of raiding guilds that had nights where they would do attunement runs. If you really wanted to get attuned you could. But the problem is casuals want everything handed to them with the least amount of work possible.

Sure only a small player base got to see the end game content but it was the ones who did where skilled enough to clear it. Do you think the trash in lfr today could kill anything back in sunwell? Answer is hell no and they would wipe on trash.

Which is why Blizzard made it easier. They aren't developing content so that less than 1% of the community can take advantage of it. That is a gross waste of resources despite what the elitists want to believe. The average player (the ones that can't stand in fire or stop DPS on twins when they swap) want to do content. So either Blizzard developers twice as much content (easy content and then elitist content) or they just dumb down the hard stuff to the average player. Easy choice from a business perspective.
 
There where tons of raiding guilds that had nights where they would do attunement runs.

that wasn't really my experience.

I was in a pretty hardcore raiding guild back on the BC era... when we had to recruit a new player (or the guildmaster's girlfriend wanted to switch mains), it often involved being forced to take a break from progression content and trudging through boring, outdated content to run all the attunements.

obviously some of the stuff could be done in PUG's or 10-mans (heroics, Karazhan), but no one on my server was PUG'ing Vash or Kael until the very end of BC (after attunements had already been removed)
 
Which is why Blizzard made it easier. They aren't developing content so that less than 1% of the community can take advantage of it. That is a gross waste of resources despite what the elitists want to believe. The average player (the ones that can't stand in fire or stop DPS on twins when they swap) want to do content. So either Blizzard developers twice as much content (easy content and then elitist content) or they just dumb down the hard stuff to the average player. Easy choice from a business perspective.

They had content to do. It's called 5 man dungeons, entry lvl raids, pvp and quests. This is where we differ opinions I don't think everybody should be able to see end game content. If they don't have the skill set or patience to raid end game then they can wait to xpac to go back and beat the old content. Still the same content so there should be no problem right?
 
They had content to do. It's called 5 man dungeons, entry lvl raids, pvp and quests. This is where we differ opinions I don't think everybody should be able to see end game content. If they don't have the skill set or patience to raid end game then they can wait to xpac to go back and beat the old content. Still the same content so there should be no problem right?

That's the nice thinking that made BC suck and has been a prime reason behind the blizz changes the last couple of expansions, congrats!
 
That's the nice thinking that made BC suck and has been a prime reason behind the blizz changes the last couple of expansions, congrats!

Most people regard bc as the best xpac for wow. But casuals need to get their hands on everything so I can understand your train of thought.
 
Most people regard bc as the best xpac for wow. But casuals need to get their hands on everything so I can understand your train of thought.

Why so insecure? How does the gear someone else is wearing lessen your enjoyment of the game? An UBER 10+ HOUR A DAY RAIDER from the BC era would probably be doing heroic 25 man, where the deepest shade of purple gear drops. Honestly though, you know that heroic difficulty raids drop the best gear right? Heroic difficulty, that you can't do in LFR? Saying the game is less enjoyable because a less deserving player has gear with its name in the same color is a laugh. Take a stand! Complain! More people can get worse gear than you! Whatever.

People like BC because it was the first. It kept most of the same mechanics, added a little bit of new stuff, and bumped up all of the old stuff. It was the excitement of watching it all unfold, not that somehow blizzard pulled out all the stops and made it the magical "bestest ever". Blizzard didn't screw it up because they didn't really change anything major relative to the basic structure of how the game was played. Armor tokens were a nice streamline though. Did it make you mad that people didn't have to suffer through watching some random set pieces get sharded because there was no druid in the group? Back then gear from the rep vendors and heroic 5 mans was considered the welfare gear, and people liked to rage about anyone wearing it. The good old days.
 
Why so insecure? How does the gear someone else is wearing lessen your enjoyment of the game? An UBER 10+ HOUR A DAY RAIDER from the BC era would probably be doing heroic 25 man, where the deepest shade of purple gear drops. Honestly though, you know that heroic difficulty raids drop the best gear right? Heroic difficulty, that you can't do in LFR? Saying the game is less enjoyable because a less deserving player has gear with its name in the same color is a laugh. Take a stand! Complain! More people can get worse gear than you! Whatever.

People like BC because it was the first. It kept most of the same mechanics, added a little bit of new stuff, and bumped up all of the old stuff. It was the excitement of watching it all unfold, not that somehow blizzard pulled out all the stops and made it the magical "bestest ever". Blizzard didn't screw it up because they didn't really change anything major relative to the basic structure of how the game was played. Armor tokens were a nice streamline though. Did it make you mad that people didn't have to suffer through watching some random set pieces get sharded because there was no druid in the group? Back then gear from the rep vendors and heroic 5 mans was considered the welfare gear, and people liked to rage about anyone wearing it. The good old days.

I'll tone down my angry voice from yesterday and be more civilized but lets try to explain this.

Hypothetically speaking I ran a guild and wanted to kill a hardmode 25 man boss but needed a Rogue. Now in BC I would have needed to recruit from another raiding guild of the same tier or, yes, run all the attunements and pray I got a good player after all that time invested. No fun. I agree. So now we have all this purple gear everywhere and there's no need for attunements or gearing up in the traditional sense. The problem though is that you can get all this great gear but have very little experience in the game or real skill in the game. It's not very hard so the difference between what is called hardcore and casual is really not that great. Yes they might play more but for the most part the big difference is reading up on a boss fight, understanding the mechanics, having your addons setup correctly, and not standing in things that can kill you. I can pretty much simplify that to watching a youtube video, understanding it, and not standing in fire. So when I recruit that fully epiced out Rogue and he does 20% of the dps of my other Rogue, dies to fire, and expects to be given the hardmode dagger that drops off the boss when he dies despite us having to 24 man the boss you can see where I might be frustrated. In the end I end up recruiting from other guilds regardless. I can't waste my time picking up a welfare epiced out player who has all the boss checkmarks on normal mode and even some on hardmode from the previous tier because he did them after the nerf. I need one who knows how to play the game. This became harder and harder as 25 man guilds started disappearing. It got to a point where there were only a few 25 man guilds, we weren't poaching from each other, and we were all forced to recruit off server. Thus people having to spend more money for server transfers and faction changes.

I would never suggest bringing back attenments. I thought they were ok in the beginning but in the long run they were a problem. What I would suggest is simply not giving away all that epic gear and giving people a false sense of skill. I started Kara in blues, Naxx in blues, etc. It's not a big deal.

If someone wants epic gear there literally were instances that dropped them like candy. That 5 man in Sunwell for example. The gear was really good too. We all ran it for the trinkets. How crazy is that? I ran the sunwell 5 man so that we would have trinkets for Brutallus. It continued from that point on.

At the end of the day in order to be able to properly do a raid instance you have to have some semblance of organization and skill. The gear is really not that big of a deal. I can put a casual player side by side with a hardcore player in the best gear and the casual player will at best do 25% of the output of the other player. Not knocking them but we saw this happen when we tried to just bring a body in.

If you're good enough to be able to do a raid instance you can do it in blues, enjoy the epics that drop, and then progress from there. Entering it with full epics, not being able to do it, waiting for the patch, and applying to another guild to waste their time does nobody any good.

Elitist? Maybe. It was reality though. You can call me elitist all you want but I'm not the one asking to see all the content. I was perfectly fine killing what I could kill and letting the rest stand. I couldn't kill hard mode Lich King 25 or clear Sunwell, Ulduar hard mode, etc. Why can't everyone be content to just kill what they can kill and not tone down the level of the game so that everyone can see everything and get all the gear?

If you don't want to learn boss mechanics and learn how to avoid things that can kill you in one hit there are 5 man instances.
 
Elitist? Maybe. It was reality though. You can call me elitist all you want but I'm not the one asking to see all the content. I was perfectly fine killing what I could kill and letting the rest stand. I couldn't kill hard mode Lich King 25 or clear Sunwell, Ulduar hard mode, etc. Why can't everyone be content to just kill what they can kill and not tone down the level of the game so that everyone can see everything and get all the gear?

If you don't want to learn boss mechanics and learn how to avoid things that can kill you in one hit there are 5 man instances.

This is the huge strawman in all of this - the notion that there were hordes of people demanding to see all of the content and have all the gear is completely false.
 
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If raids gave no gear most people wouldn't touch them and very few would run them after completing them once.

All this achievements and rewards business (this is for every game, MMORPG or not) is a way developers use to try to hide/extend crappy content.
 
This is the huge strawman in all of this - the notion that there were hordes of people demanding to see all of the content and have all the gear is completely false.

I'm pretty sure it's what Ghostcrawler said when people questioned him. Blizzard wants everyone to see all the content. Gear wise I don't remember if there was a comment.
 
I'm pretty sure it's what Ghostcrawler said when people questioned him. Blizzard wants everyone to see all the content. Gear wise I don't remember if there was a comment.

Right, so it's Blizzard who wants more players to see more content, which was pretty much their aim in the first place when they first started developing the game.
 
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