Wow! Go France! Time for us to learn from them!!!

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,776
31
81
A Frenchman who pushes for this immigration plan has balls! Wow, I am impressed!

It's time our more conservative media outlets to end their hatred of France and learn a thing or two from this!

The French government is toughening up its immigration policies, with plans to introduce DNA tests for prospective immigrants and demands that local officals meet their deportation targets...Sarkozy had promised to expel 25,000 illegal immigrants from France by the end of 2007.

Of course, the French "left" are getting in the way.

SPIEGEL Article
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
But it's far too in vogue to bash France and anything it does, so if they're doing this, it's obviously the wrong--probably even cowardly thing to do. Remember WWII?

(yes, I'm being facetious!)
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
This is motivated purely by hatred. French immigration policy has been a mess and has left hundreds of thousands of people in the country as social outcasts. Why should we follow a country where people who have lived within its borders for generations are still called immigrants? The French government is so out of touch with it's own immigrants that it has made reference to them as "scum." Discrimination against those who are different (not French) is widespread. Is that really what you want America's immigration policy to be based on? Do we really want to regulate our immigrants to second-class status? As a democracy that supposedly puts human rights as a high priority, how can we even entertain ideas that this kind of a policy is a good idea?

This is not a humanitarian policy, France is nto a country that we should let take the lead in forming immigration policy.
 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
This is motivated purely by hatred. French immigration policy has been a mess and has left hundreds of thousands of people in the country as social outcasts. Why should we follow a country where people who have lived within its borders for generations are still called immigrants? The French government is so out of touch with it's own immigrants that it has made reference to them as "scum." Discrimination against those who are different (not French) is widespread. Is that really what you want America's immigration policy to be based on? Do we really want to regulate our immigrants to second-class status? As a democracy that supposedly puts human rights as a high priority, how can we even entertain ideas that this kind of a policy is a good idea?

This is not a humanitarian policy, France is nto a country that we should let take the lead in forming immigration policy.

The people you are talking about (those Sarkozy called scum) are not immigrants.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: ayabe
DNA tests?

For what?

The Jihad gene?

If only that were possible...

It would be for a database, so to have DNA samples available for the police.

OK and we should adopt that here because???

That is a terrible idea and if such a thing were proposed in the US, the right wingers would be up in arms and rightly so.

Talk about invasion of privacy.
 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: ayabe
DNA tests?

For what?

The Jihad gene?

If only that were possible...

It would be for a database, so to have DNA samples available for the police.

OK and we should adopt that here because???

That is a terrible idea and if such a thing were proposed in the US, the right wingers would be up in arms and rightly so.

Talk about invasion of privacy.

I never said it was a bright idea, I just answered when someone asked what was the DNA test used for. In Europe they used to take your blood and fingerprints when going through the military/civil service, so that the police had a database with this informations. Obviously if you immigrate later they would lack this informations so that it is much harder to investigate crimes committed by immigrants.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
This is motivated purely by hatred. French immigration policy has been a mess and has left hundreds of thousands of people in the country as social outcasts. Why should we follow a country where people who have lived within its borders for generations are still called immigrants? The French government is so out of touch with it's own immigrants that it has made reference to them as "scum." Discrimination against those who are different (not French) is widespread. Is that really what you want America's immigration policy to be based on? Do we really want to regulate our immigrants to second-class status? As a democracy that supposedly puts human rights as a high priority, how can we even entertain ideas that this kind of a policy is a good idea?

This is not a humanitarian policy, France is nto a country that we should let take the lead in forming immigration policy.

The people you are talking about (those Sarkozy called scum) are not immigrants.

In what sense? Many were not off-the-boat immigrants, but most were the sons or grandsons of people who immigrated to France. Hence, many still bore / bear the immigrant moniker.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: ayabe
DNA tests?

For what?

The Jihad gene?

I would say that under immigration policies you can often as a legal immigrant send for members of your family, a dna test would be a tool to verify the claims.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: ayabe
DNA tests?

For what?

The Jihad gene?

I would say that under immigration policies you can often as a legal immigrant send for members of your family, a dna test would be a tool to verify the claims.

What about if you have legally adopted children? What if you marry a woman with two kids?
 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
This is motivated purely by hatred. French immigration policy has been a mess and has left hundreds of thousands of people in the country as social outcasts. Why should we follow a country where people who have lived within its borders for generations are still called immigrants? The French government is so out of touch with it's own immigrants that it has made reference to them as "scum." Discrimination against those who are different (not French) is widespread. Is that really what you want America's immigration policy to be based on? Do we really want to regulate our immigrants to second-class status? As a democracy that supposedly puts human rights as a high priority, how can we even entertain ideas that this kind of a policy is a good idea?

This is not a humanitarian policy, France is nto a country that we should let take the lead in forming immigration policy.

The people you are talking about (those Sarkozy called scum) are not immigrants.

In what sense? Many were not off-the-boat immigrants, but most were the sons or grandsons of people who immigrated to France. Hence, many still bore / bear the immigrant moniker.

The grandson of an immigrant is not an immigrant.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
This is motivated purely by hatred. French immigration policy has been a mess and has left hundreds of thousands of people in the country as social outcasts. Why should we follow a country where people who have lived within its borders for generations are still called immigrants? The French government is so out of touch with it's own immigrants that it has made reference to them as "scum." Discrimination against those who are different (not French) is widespread. Is that really what you want America's immigration policy to be based on? Do we really want to regulate our immigrants to second-class status? As a democracy that supposedly puts human rights as a high priority, how can we even entertain ideas that this kind of a policy is a good idea?

This is not a humanitarian policy, France is nto a country that we should let take the lead in forming immigration policy.

The people you are talking about (those Sarkozy called scum) are not immigrants.

In what sense? Many were not off-the-boat immigrants, but most were the sons or grandsons of people who immigrated to France. Hence, many still bore / bear the immigrant moniker.

The grandson of an immigrant is not an immigrant.

They shouldn't be treated that way, but they are in France. it's similar in Germany as well. People who have lived in the country for generations are still called immigrants, still shunned from society, and still hated by the general population.
 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
This is motivated purely by hatred. French immigration policy has been a mess and has left hundreds of thousands of people in the country as social outcasts. Why should we follow a country where people who have lived within its borders for generations are still called immigrants? The French government is so out of touch with it's own immigrants that it has made reference to them as "scum." Discrimination against those who are different (not French) is widespread. Is that really what you want America's immigration policy to be based on? Do we really want to regulate our immigrants to second-class status? As a democracy that supposedly puts human rights as a high priority, how can we even entertain ideas that this kind of a policy is a good idea?

This is not a humanitarian policy, France is nto a country that we should let take the lead in forming immigration policy.

The people you are talking about (those Sarkozy called scum) are not immigrants.

In what sense? Many were not off-the-boat immigrants, but most were the sons or grandsons of people who immigrated to France. Hence, many still bore / bear the immigrant moniker.

The grandson of an immigrant is not an immigrant.

They shouldn't be treated that way, but they are in France. it's similar in Germany as well. People who have lived in the country for generations are still called immigrants, still shunned from society, and still hated by the general population.

That's quite a generalization you are making. I live 4 months a year in Paris and I can tell you nobody in my group of friends and co-workers thinks like that.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
This is motivated purely by hatred. French immigration policy has been a mess and has left hundreds of thousands of people in the country as social outcasts. Why should we follow a country where people who have lived within its borders for generations are still called immigrants? The French government is so out of touch with it's own immigrants that it has made reference to them as "scum." Discrimination against those who are different (not French) is widespread. Is that really what you want America's immigration policy to be based on? Do we really want to regulate our immigrants to second-class status? As a democracy that supposedly puts human rights as a high priority, how can we even entertain ideas that this kind of a policy is a good idea?

This is not a humanitarian policy, France is nto a country that we should let take the lead in forming immigration policy.

The people you are talking about (those Sarkozy called scum) are not immigrants.

In what sense? Many were not off-the-boat immigrants, but most were the sons or grandsons of people who immigrated to France. Hence, many still bore / bear the immigrant moniker.

The grandson of an immigrant is not an immigrant.

They shouldn't be treated that way, but they are in France. it's similar in Germany as well. People who have lived in the country for generations are still called immigrants, still shunned from society, and still hated by the general population.

That's quite a generalization you are making. I live 4 months a year in Paris and I can tell you nobody in my group of friends and co-workers thinks like that.

I have friends in Berlin who are pretty progressive, it doesn't change the fact that most Germans hate Turks, refuse to grant them citizenship, and want to kick them out of a country they've lived in for decades. Based on the immigration policy decisions made, the imposition of 'frenchness' on everybody who comes, and what I see as a denial to societal acceptance if you don't fit in basically adds up to a pretty discriminatory policy in my mind.
 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
This is motivated purely by hatred. French immigration policy has been a mess and has left hundreds of thousands of people in the country as social outcasts. Why should we follow a country where people who have lived within its borders for generations are still called immigrants? The French government is so out of touch with it's own immigrants that it has made reference to them as "scum." Discrimination against those who are different (not French) is widespread. Is that really what you want America's immigration policy to be based on? Do we really want to regulate our immigrants to second-class status? As a democracy that supposedly puts human rights as a high priority, how can we even entertain ideas that this kind of a policy is a good idea?

This is not a humanitarian policy, France is nto a country that we should let take the lead in forming immigration policy.

The people you are talking about (those Sarkozy called scum) are not immigrants.

In what sense? Many were not off-the-boat immigrants, but most were the sons or grandsons of people who immigrated to France. Hence, many still bore / bear the immigrant moniker.

The grandson of an immigrant is not an immigrant.

They shouldn't be treated that way, but they are in France. it's similar in Germany as well. People who have lived in the country for generations are still called immigrants, still shunned from society, and still hated by the general population.

That's quite a generalization you are making. I live 4 months a year in Paris and I can tell you nobody in my group of friends and co-workers thinks like that.

I have friends in Berlin who are pretty progressive, it doesn't change the fact that most Germans hate Turks, refuse to grant them citizenship, and want to kick them out of a country they've lived in for decades. Based on the immigration policy decisions made, the imposition of 'frenchness' on everybody who comes, and what I see as a denial to societal acceptance if you don't fit in basically adds up to a pretty discriminatory policy in my mind.

Wait. Having an integration policy instead of a multicultural policy is a choice countries did many years ago, but this has nothing ado with "hating Turks" or "refusing to give them citizenship". One thing is the theoretical model adopted and another is the implementation of social policies regulating the everyday life and problems of immigrants in aspects like welfare, housing or the job market.
There are many different approaches to the problem of integrating different cultures (in literature usually three main models are recognized), and obviously countries with the cultural history of Europe adopt different policies from those used in Canada, the US or Australia. Of course one can debate whether it might be appropriate to follow a path instead of another, but I find quite understandable that the first choice naturally made years ago when it was time to shape an immigration policy was an integration one.

But this has nothing ado with immigrants facing good or bad conditions when looking for an apartment or a job. Welfare policies are in fact extremely accommodating in most EU countries. In France, Germany and Italy immigrants get full access to welfare from day one, including unemployment benefits.

I'm not saying there are no racist people in Europe, I'm just saying that you are severely over-representing them like a considerable part of the population. People "hating Turks" are just racists, and do not even enter the political discourse. They tried to enter the political debate a few years ago, but as you have seen in the last series of elections far right-wing parties got spanked everywhere, from Le pen in France to the Lega in Italy they never reached 5% of the votes.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: ayabe
DNA tests?

For what?

The Jihad gene?

If only that were possible...

Too bad you would come up positive. You don't think that napalm, depleted uranium, shock and awe and many civilian killings, sanctions that kill children with disease, torture and such are 'jihad', but the gene would indeed be very strong in someone like you who has so little respect for life as evidenced in post after post you make calling for unnecessary violence.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
I have friends in Berlin who are pretty progressive, it doesn't change the fact that most Germans hate Turks, refuse to grant them citizenship, and want to kick them out of a country they've lived in for decades.
I can vouch for that. The majority of my German family and friends despise the Turkish immigrants.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
I have friends in Berlin who are pretty progressive, it doesn't change the fact that most Germans hate Turks, refuse to grant them citizenship, and want to kick them out of a country they've lived in for decades.
I can vouch for that. The majority of my German family and friends despise the Turkish immigrants.

It's pretty common for ideals of brotherly love to weaken in day to day interactions. Many Americans have a soft spot for Native Americans given all that was done wrong to them; whites I know who live near them can't stand them, usually. A lot of liberals who live in nice white communities express views about things they don't have to deal with. I've known black people who say they prefer the overt racism of the south to the 'smile to your face' hidden racism of other areas they felt they encountered.

There's something to be said for the fact that the US is one of the most diverse nations in the world, in terms of some of its foreign critics who have more homogenous societies.

But having said all that, there's a lot to be said for those liberal ideas for brotherly love. Even if JFK had little use for black people before 1962, for example, his efforts made a difference as he came to more fully appreciate the moral issues, and our nation was led to improvement after a century of little-changing unquestioned racism by these liberal ideas when put into government to force change. Many other nations are behind the US, I think, when it comes to the 'love of diversity', not that we don't have a way to go too.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
I have friends in Berlin who are pretty progressive, it doesn't change the fact that most Germans hate Turks, refuse to grant them citizenship, and want to kick them out of a country they've lived in for decades.
I can vouch for that. The majority of my German family and friends despise the Turkish immigrants.

It's pretty common for ideals of brotherly love to weaken in day to day interactions. Many Americans have a soft spot for Native Americans given all that was done wrong to them; whites I know who live near them can't stand them, usually. A lot of liberals who live in nice white communities express views about things they don't have to deal with. I've known black people who say they prefer the overt racism of the south to the 'smile to your face' hidden racism of other areas they felt they encountered.

There's something to be said for the fact that the US is one of the most diverse nations in the world, in terms of some of its foreign critics who have more homogenous societies.

But having said all that, there's a lot to be said for those liberal ideas for brotherly love. Even if JFK had little use for black people before 1962, for example, his efforts made a difference as he came to more fully appreciate the moral issues, and our nation was led to improvement after a century of little-changing unquestioned racism by these liberal ideas when put into government to force change. Many other nations are behind the US, I think, when it comes to the 'love of diversity', not that we don't have a way to go too.
Are you trying to encourage all of us to embrace Mexico and learn Spanish?

Knowing you, I bet I'm close...
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,481
29,051
146
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
This is motivated purely by hatred. French immigration policy has been a mess and has left hundreds of thousands of people in the country as social outcasts. Why should we follow a country where people who have lived within its borders for generations are still called immigrants? The French government is so out of touch with it's own immigrants that it has made reference to them as "scum." Discrimination against those who are different (not French) is widespread. Is that really what you want America's immigration policy to be based on? Do we really want to regulate our immigrants to second-class status? As a democracy that supposedly puts human rights as a high priority, how can we even entertain ideas that this kind of a policy is a good idea?

This is not a humanitarian policy, France is nto a country that we should let take the lead in forming immigration policy.

The people you are talking about (those Sarkozy called scum) are not immigrants.

In what sense? Many were not off-the-boat immigrants, but most were the sons or grandsons of people who immigrated to France. Hence, many still bore / bear the immigrant moniker.

The grandson of an immigrant is not an immigrant.

They shouldn't be treated that way, but they are in France. it's similar in Germany as well. People who have lived in the country for generations are still called immigrants, still shunned from society, and still hated by the general population.

That's quite a generalization you are making. I live 4 months a year in Paris and I can tell you nobody in my group of friends and co-workers thinks like that.


I assume those 4 months did not occur during last summer's riots?


...and using your friends/coworkers as a gauge of French opinion is as steep a generalization, btw
 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
1
0
Let's say all Europeans suck, they all hate outsiders (a lot of generalization).

Still, you can't deny European countries are a lot better economically and politically than wherever those immigrants came from. Otherwise, why would those immigrants move to Germany or France if things are really that bad for them there? It sucks to be kicked around in a foreign country, but you have to admit overall they are better off in Europe, otherwise they'd have gone home a long time ago. Something people don't like to admit.

But what the hell, it's harmless fun bashing Europeans like French. Politically correct and fun. Freedom Fries!!! Die Frenchie!!!!



 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
This is motivated purely by hatred. French immigration policy has been a mess and has left hundreds of thousands of people in the country as social outcasts. Why should we follow a country where people who have lived within its borders for generations are still called immigrants? The French government is so out of touch with it's own immigrants that it has made reference to them as "scum." Discrimination against those who are different (not French) is widespread. Is that really what you want America's immigration policy to be based on? Do we really want to regulate our immigrants to second-class status? As a democracy that supposedly puts human rights as a high priority, how can we even entertain ideas that this kind of a policy is a good idea?

This is not a humanitarian policy, France is nto a country that we should let take the lead in forming immigration policy.

The people you are talking about (those Sarkozy called scum) are not immigrants.

In what sense? Many were not off-the-boat immigrants, but most were the sons or grandsons of people who immigrated to France. Hence, many still bore / bear the immigrant moniker.

The grandson of an immigrant is not an immigrant.

They shouldn't be treated that way, but they are in France. it's similar in Germany as well. People who have lived in the country for generations are still called immigrants, still shunned from society, and still hated by the general population.

That's quite a generalization you are making. I live 4 months a year in Paris and I can tell you nobody in my group of friends and co-workers thinks like that.


I assume those 4 months did not occur during last summer's riots?


...and using your friends/coworkers as a gauge of French opinion is as steep a generalization, btw

Yes to both points. I was in Paris during the so-called riots in 2005 and 2006. And yes, my friends/co-workers are a tiny percentage of the French population, but it was just to make the point that it is untrue that the 'general population' hates immigrants. I just wanted to prove a negative. I know quite a lot of people in Paris and none of them ever stated anything against immigrants in my presence. This is by the way clearly reflected in the voting results. Of course if I knew people from the countryside things might well be different. Which is interesting: racist people are always the ones with the least knowledge of the problem they think to address with their backward thinking. Le Pen used to get most of his votes in rural regions where they hardly ever saw an immigrant.

In fact, even during the riots most people agreed in fact with the rioters, and many demonstrations took place to support their reasons, ranging from unions to students, and many intellectuals defended their rage (albeit condemning the methods of course).

There was a clear casus-belli for those riots, something most people apparently tend to forget.