Wow. Bitcoin is almost $1,500

[ponyo]

It's a theory growing in popularity.

I posted about it a few posts previous above; if you flip a BTCUSD chart upside-down you can see fiat dollars collapsing into BTC like a black hole.

Start of fiat Hyperinflationary collapse? Hmmm... starting to look like it. Helps that, as of right now prior to BTC futures being issued, BTC can't be manipulated like Gold prices are to keep hyperinflation in check. It's starting to show.

My thought was deflation before possible hyperinflation. We got the deflation. I think we're getting the hyperinflation via Bitcoin. I thought if it happened, it would be through gold. I bet on the wrong horse. People are calling bitcoin bubble. But I don't think so. Like I said, it doesn't feel like a bubble, YET. I think bitcoin could climb to $20k or even $100k. I think at around $40-50k, I'll start calling it a bubble. Not yet.

 

[Yakk]

Funny read... BTC will need to be valued at over $900,000 just to cover the U.S. debt.

Anyone with access to a quantum computer want to start working on brute forcing it?

What's interesting is that quantum computers should crack banking protocols first.

 

[ponyo]

I remember when internet stocks got no respect. Prices will settle once it gets respect. I don't look at bitcoin as currency. More like commodity. What's the difference between the price of Bitcoin vs price of Amazon or Tesla stock? Imagination.

Imagine bitcoin at $100k. Or even $1 million. Could happen. All it takes is imagination. It's not so crazy anymore.

 

[zinfamous]

That function of btc is its only true value: anonymous (with the right precautions) transacting. The run up in value has nothing to do with that function and everything to do with the influence of speculative investors. It's the very definition of a bubble.

I think you're correct.

I'm going to buy 1 BTC and use it to purchase 1 million tulip bulbs.

 

[Yakk]

My thought was deflation before possible hyperinflation. We got the deflation. I think we're getting the hyperinflation via Bitcoin. I thought if it happened, it would be through gold. I bet on the wrong horse. People are calling bitcoin bubble. But I don't think so. Like I said, it doesn't feel like a bubble, YET. I think bitcoin could climb to $20k or even $100k. I think at around $40-50k, I'll start calling it a bubble. Not yet.

Countries are printing tonnes of currency all the time causing inflation, if they calculate to be approximately at the same rate then the values can stay more or less constant, or use systems like the petro-dollar. Bitcoin is a fixed quantity like gold (forks aside which are just trying to con people). I agree hyperinflation should've happened through gold first, but because on manipulation it didn't. Ie: countries reporting more gold than they actually have, or counting the same time multiple times in creative accounting ways saying you own it on paper... Etc...

I'm curious what will happen with BTC futures to try to manipulate pricing. It may delay BTC increasing in value at less than inflation for a while, but imo a good chance it won't stop it like it did gold.

 

[xaeniac]

who sets the value on bitcoin?

 

[Printer Bandit]

question is: how low can the dollar go?

 

[Yakk]

who sets the value on bitcoin?

?

Nobody dictates a value to Bitcoin. A collective global market does, much like Forex really.

 

[Yakk]

question is: how low can the dollar go?

In theory, as low is as fast as the country printing new fiat. Or infinite.

Venezuela is the best, unfortunate, example currently. Their currency has collapsed versus Bitcoin (and collapsing versus other fiat at a slower rate) .

1 Venezuelan Bolívar equals
0.0000090 Bitcoin

 

[RLGL]

What goes up has gotta go down, looks like a big bubble to me. When it takes a big dump, I hope it does't take the stock market with it.

 

[Charmonium]

Fiat currencies derive their value from the demand created by an economy that uses the currency. If you take away the economic demand, the currency is worthless. It would be as if the US retired the dollar and substituted something else. You wouldn't be able to give dollars away.

So the thing that puzzles me about bitcoin is how can it have any value if there's no economic demand. Right now all of the demand seems to be from people speculating. That and the fact that the free float in btc is probably very small and getting smaller.

But if you take away the speculative aspect, where is the demand that would support the value of btc?

 

[Chaotic42]

I'm going to convert my 1 BTC to 100,073,586,599,874,319,600 First Zimbabwe Dollars.

 

[ultimatebob]

What would be most interesting to me are details on who is paying you guys to pump this narrative on tech forums. It's truly a fascinating process to watch unfold in real time over the past few years. I've seen the junk bond schemes detailed in movies (Boiler Room, etc.) and of course we've all heard of the tulips, but I figured our collective investment wisdom and regulatory framework had evolved to the point I'd never see this kind of craze with my own eyes. I'd love to know what's happening behind the scenes and understand how it was possible to pull off a scheme like this.

I would think that the Bitcoin miners who started early and have a small horde of coins would have all the incentive in the world to hype up the currency and try to convince new investors that it's the next Paypal or Mastercard.

Of course, people who've actually used the cryptocurrency know that it takes forever to confirm a transaction, and many of the business that exchange it are shady as hell and can't be trusted. Don't forget that if you get hacked or scammed and lose your money, there is no government entity to complain to.

If I was one of those people holding onto a horde of Bitcoin, I think that I'd be selling a bit at this level. I'm not sure that there are enough new investors to keep the rally going.

 

[pandemonium]

One thing to remember when comparing fiat to cryptocurrencies, is that all currencies have an agreed upon value placed on them. All of them. You're deluding yourself if you think any currency is stationary in value at any given time or place.

The difference is, fiat is well established and "backed" by a governing entity of some nature. I say "backed", because in all honesty, you really can't know with absolute certainty if the committee(s) overseeing the market value and production is as well informed or well intended as we'd like them to be. Cryptocurrencies, BTC in general - with thanks to the blockchain - is overseen by a network of committees, all working to maintain it. The value is derived solely by the market demand and availability.

It fluctuates drastically because it's still a a very small drop in the pond of the available financial assets on this planet. (Available liquid financial assets somewhere around $90.4 trillion USD, not including investments, derivatives, holdings, etc.) It'd be as "stationary" as any fiat is today if it held a larger pool. Same is true for any currency. The larger the pool, the more "reliable".

The real difference, to me anyways, is that it's verifiable and it doesn't pretend to assume it has a grasp on its own value, unlike fiat. It's value is exactly as the market says it is and can't be influenced otherwise. If a whale decides to play with it, it bubbles up, slams down, then reverts back to where it was a couple of hours or days prior. It's happened so many times that I just laugh every time. (Look at the current value and you'll see what I mean.) Watch it as long as I have and it's an amusing financial experiment of a truly astonishing, first world oriented currency.

The main thing is to ponder the long term goal.

 

[Yakk]

At this point BTC is a bubble bath of popped bubbles... What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

It's the new normal. Lots of people are just having fun with it now.

 

[Mandres]

Fiat currencies derive their value from the demand created by an economy that uses the currency. If you take away the economic demand, the currency is worthless. It would be as if the US retired the dollar and substituted something else. You wouldn't be able to give dollars away.

So the thing that puzzles me about bitcoin is how can it have any value if there's no economic demand. Right now all of the demand seems to be from people speculating. That and the fact that the free float in btc is probably very small and getting smaller.

But if you take away the speculative aspect, where is the demand that would support the value of btc?

BTC has some value/economic demand because of its ability to facilitate anonymous transactions. That's a feature you don't get with dollars, paypal, etc. and it's truly valuable in many cases*. There will always be demand for it until something better/more popular comes along. But the explosion in dollar value over the last few years is 100% due to pump & dump investment firms creating artificial demand, just like in this thread.

*Although honestly considering how far federal agencies have been able to reach into the "deep web" I have serious doubts about just how anonymous transacting in BTC really is. The us govt has very powerful tools if they're motivated enough to use them.

 

[Yakk]

Best tulip comment I've seen so far...

"Enough of this shoddy tulip mania comparison. To compare a six-months Dutch economic bubble from 1637 with a nine-years global disruptive innovation in 2017 is intellectually embarrassing. Bitcoin might fail, but it is not a bubble."

 

[ultimatebob]

Is Bitcoin really a "disruptive innovation", though? Blockchain technology might be, but Bitcoin as an actual currency kinda sucks due to the various things I mentioned above. There are better crypto currencies out there, but Bitcoin has the known brand name.

I still think that Bitcoin is the Pets.com of 2017, but we'll have to wait and see.

 

[IronWing]

Best tulip comment I've seen so far...

"Enough of this shoddy tulip mania comparison. To compare a six-months Dutch economic bubble from 1637 with a nine-years global disruptive innovation in 2017 is intellectually embarrassing. Bitcoin might fail, but it is not a bubble."

True, it's a bubble pipe.

 

[zinfamous]

Fiat currencies derive their value from the demand created by an economy that uses the currency. If you take away the economic demand, the currency is worthless. It would be as if the US retired the dollar and substituted something else. You wouldn't be able to give dollars away.

So the thing that puzzles me about bitcoin is how can it have any value if there's no economic demand. Right now all of the demand seems to be from people speculating. That and the fact that the free float in btc is probably very small and getting smaller.

But if you take away the speculative aspect, where is the demand that would support the value of btc?

the demand is the anonymity of BTC transactions, which is probably, well, definitely supported by the elicit market in transferring funds for trafficking narcotics, fenced goods, sex slavery, etc etc. I'm not saying that's the only use of BTC, but it's certainly predominant.

 

[IronWing]

the demand is the anonymity of BTC transactions, which is probably, well, definitely supported by the elicit market in transferring funds for trafficking narcotics, fenced goods, sex slavery, etc etc. I'm not saying that's the only use of BTC, but it's certainly predominant.

Finally, a way for me to make money in the sex trade.

 

[Printer Bandit]

bitcoin isn't anonymous. if you think so, let me know your wallet address so I can see how much you have and all the incoming / outgoing transactions.

 

[zinfamous]

Best tulip comment I've seen so far...

"Enough of this shoddy tulip mania comparison. To compare a six-months Dutch economic bubble from 1637 with a nine-years global disruptive innovation in 2017 is intellectually embarrassing. Bitcoin might fail, but it is not a bubble."

I wonder if that guy also doesn't consider the decades-long RE loan bubble that popped in 2008...well, not a bubble simply by virtue of how long it lasted? What a weird statement. Surely, the whole sub-prime loan industry and credit-default-swap mumbo jumbo was no less disruptive to the structure of the financial sector when it was making people filthy rich off of empty paper for reasons that even they didn't understand.

I find this person's analogy...dubious.

 

[zinfamous]

bitcoin isn't anonymous. if you think so, let me know your wallet address so I can see how much you have and all the incoming / outgoing transactions.

OK, untraceable, then?

 

[KIAman]

Thought I was crazy when I bought some at a little under 4k, now kicking myself for not buying more at the time.