Wow. Bitcoin is almost $1,500

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AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
14,244
1,642
126
Using electricity to run a heat pump is quite a bit different than pure electric heat. Cost-wise.
 

dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,543
491
96
Pardon for prying, just out of curiosity.

At what price point would you consider buying a bitcoin to hedge against that outside possibility it explodes to ridiculous highs somewhere down the line?

I'm toying with the idea of buying a single coin and tucking it away.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Pardon for prying, just out of curiosity.

At what price point would you consider buying a bitcoin to hedge against that outside possibility it explodes to ridiculous highs somewhere down the line?

I'm toying with the idea of buying a single coin and tucking it away.
I would not, at any price including $1.

$5,000 in an IRA at Vanguard.com held over 20 years has a much, much higher chance of making you money than $5,000 worth of bitcoins.

Spending money to hold bitcoins is like buying lottery tickets or going to a casino.

Even the coin enthusiasts here (which I am not) do not expect bitcoin itself to have a good long-term future. They are mostly either day-trading (or "week-trading") and will try to time the market to make money, or they think some other coin or blockchain service company will grow over time.

I don't expect either coins or services to grow much, but that's definitely open to debate. I expect corporations and states to just create their own coins (bypassing existing ones) and for blockchain services I expect Amazon, Google, and Microsoft to add them to their existing service platforms.
 

dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,543
491
96
I surely see your point. My knowledge of crypto investing is very limited and I would dig much deeper before even considering it.

I have plenty of money in relatively "safe" funds. Losing the price of a single coin (at somewhere near current rates) would not be the end of the world.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,800
126
Pardon for prying, just out of curiosity.

At what price point would you consider buying a bitcoin to hedge against that outside possibility it explodes to ridiculous highs somewhere down the line?

I'm toying with the idea of buying a single coin and tucking it away.
If the price explodes to ridiculous high, so be it. So what? The fear of missing out is driving the current bubble. I wouldn't put a single penny in any of these coins for long term. It's all going to zero IMO.
 
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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
I surely see your point. My knowledge of crypto investing is very limited and I would dig much deeper before even considering it.

I have plenty of money in relatively "safe" funds. Losing the price of a single coin (at somewhere near current rates) would not be the end of the world.
If you're going to throw away money, why not do it on something tangible like a nice OLED TV or a new laptop? For the cost of a bitcoin you could have both.

I guess I'm just a conservative investor. 100% of my non-cash investments are in stock and bond index funds. I don't set aside 10% to play with on "fun" investments because I prefer boring, safe, get-rich-slowly investments that I can just buy and hold for decades. That also means I can spend the hours reading a book or watching a movie instead of researching individual stocks or in this case coins.

If you want to spend some money on investing as a hobby like fishing or golf, and don't care about losing the money because you're having fun, that's different.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
20,001
8,989
136
At what price point would you consider buying a bitcoin to hedge against that outside possibility it explodes to ridiculous highs somewhere down the line?
Don't invest until you understand the technical fundamentals of all the biggest/most interesting projects: Bitcoin, Ethereum, NEO, Monero, maybe VEChain and NEM, probably IOTA. Also know the difference between a "chain-defining" token (like BTC or ETH) or a token that relies on an established blockchain (OMG, ECN, and many many others).

If you start to understand at least a little of the technology behind blockchain (and non-blockchain competitors like XRP), you will understand immediately which ones are the worst investments: namely, XRP and Bitcoin.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,350
1,961
136
I'lll do a little more research. Thanks for the input.
Unlike other blockchain projects that try to apply blockchain technology to solve business problems, Bitcoin has no practical applications. In the beginning Bitcoin was intended to be a government-less currency replacement. However, it failed at that, the fees are too high and most people use it as investment, and not as currency. So right now it's only worth as much as people think it's worth. It very well may prove all the nay-sayers wrong yet again and go up in the future, but IMO it's a gamble. If you like gambling, and want to bet on Bitcoin, go for it, so long as you don't gamble with more than you can lose.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
63,568
10,153
126
twitter.com
I guess when you think about it, it's not any different than stocks. Stocks are not really real, and arn't really a currency. They're just a virtual thing that people pay/sell for what they are willing for.
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,714
164
106
I guess when you think about it, it's not any different than stocks. Stocks are not really real, and arn't really a currency. They're just a virtual thing that people pay/sell for what they are willing for.
Um...no. Stocks represent a partial ownership of a tangible business entity. Crypto like BTC are completely virtual of no intrinsic value. The only thing tangible about them is the power they have wasted.

If you owned a restaurant at the end of your street...would you call that virtual? If you were 1/13th owner of a local brewery, would you call that “virtual”? Of course not. Doesn’t mean the restaurant or brewery won’t go belly up...but it is not the same as BTC at all.
 
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momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
351
126
Why is virtual even an important distinction.

Is a video game on a physical CD worth any more or less than Steam Key? Money in a bank account vs cash?

Look at the damage caused by gold-mining operations since about 7,000 years ago.

Tangibility really means nothing, markets are all about psychology and perceived value. A company that makes only virtual products, with only telecommuting employees and virtual office spaces, might be worth more than a company that hand-makes steam-engines.
 
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Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,385
1,517
126
Tangibility really means nothing, markets are all about psychology and perceived value. A company that makes only virtual products, with only telecommuting employees and virtual office spaces, might be worth more than a company that hand-makes steam-engines.
and you would probably buy ownership of that company via the stock market.

Buying crypto and stocks are not the same at all, except for the attempts to profit from it.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
351
126
and you would probably buy ownership of that company via the stock market.

Buying crypto and stocks are not the same at all, except for the attempts to profit from it.
By owning anything you are invested in the supply and demand curve of that thing. I would say that is about as simple as it gets.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
By owning anything you are invested in the supply and demand curve of that thing. I would say that is about as simple as it gets.
Except that some investments also pay dividends. The S&P 500 is currently paying around 2%, more than a bank CD.
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,720
1,500
136
Except that some investments also pay dividends. The S&P 500 is currently paying around 2%, more than a bank CD.
There are dividend bearing cryptoassets, mostly through Proof-of-Stake. You also get similar regular payouts by running a "masternode" on several currencies, though it's not technically a dividend.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
351
126
Except that some investments also pay dividends. The S&P 500 is currently paying around 2%, more than a bank CD.
That is still part of the equation.

Once/if (who knows, maybe this is the infinity bull-market our forefathers have mentioned) the market goes bear, the dividend will be worth less than the return on a bond, or any number of other investment vehicles, so you purchasing a stock in return for its 2% dividend is still highly speculative in nature. That's all I'm trying to say. These are speculative investments and they carry risk.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,946
126
Why is virtual even an important distinction.

Is a video game on a physical CD worth any more or less than Steam Key? Money in a bank account vs cash?

Look at the damage caused by gold-mining operations since about 7,000 years ago.

Tangibility really means nothing, markets are all about psychology and perceived value. A company that makes only virtual products, with only telecommuting employees and virtual office spaces, might be worth more than a company that hand-makes steam-engines.
software is a tangible product. Lol. Wtf are you saying. hah.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
63,568
10,153
126
twitter.com
Um...no. Stocks represent a partial ownership of a tangible business entity. Crypto like BTC are completely virtual of no intrinsic value. The only thing tangible about them is the power they have wasted.

If you owned a restaurant at the end of your street...would you call that virtual? If you were 1/13th owner of a local brewery, would you call that “virtual”? Of course not. Doesn’t mean the restaurant or brewery won’t go belly up...but it is not the same as BTC at all.
You're not REALLY an owner though. If you own stocks in a company it does not mean you can just walk in like you own the place. That pen at the counter is not yours it's the company's. The ownership is more of a virtual thing. I own stocks in Bombardier, does not mean I can walk in and start test driving some planes that are sitting ready to be shipped. I don't actually own any of it.

Though I guess if you own more than 51% of a stock you can technically take it over, but I would imagine most companies ensure this can't happen.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,946
126
You're not REALLY an owner though. If you own stocks in a company it does not mean you can just walk in like you own the place. That pen at the counter is not yours it's the company's. The ownership is more of a virtual thing. I own stocks in Bombardier, does not mean I can walk in and start test driving some planes that are sitting ready to be shipped. I don't actually own any of it.

Though I guess if you own more than 51% of a stock you can technically take it over, but I would imagine most companies ensure this can't happen.
If you have enough money you can do it.
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,714
164
106
You're not REALLY an owner though. If you own stocks in a company it does not mean you can just walk in like you own the place. That pen at the counter is not yours it's the company's. The ownership is more of a virtual thing. I own stocks in Bombardier, does not mean I can walk in and start test driving some planes that are sitting ready to be shipped. I don't actually own any of it.

Though I guess if you own more than 51% of a stock you can technically take it over, but I would imagine most companies ensure this can't happen.
Your reasoning as to what constitutes partial ownership is hilarious. Yes, you do own part of the company. Period. That ownership may come with voting rights, dividends, or more. If you own enough...you certainly can do some of the things you are referring to.

Just because you can’t take a plane for a joyride doesn’t diminish your small stake in the company.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,385
1,517
126
You're not REALLY an owner though. If you own stocks in a company it does not mean you can just walk in like you own the place. That pen at the counter is not yours it's the company's. The ownership is more of a virtual thing. I own stocks in Bombardier, does not mean I can walk in and start test driving some planes that are sitting ready to be shipped. I don't actually own any of it.
the answer is: buy 51% of the company.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,946
126
I said virtual, and like I said, I find it a pointless distinction.
but software has a real use. It is proprietary code at the end of the day. A bit coin is just something you will transfer into dollars at some point in the future.
 

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