Would you support military force against Iran...

[ShinGouki]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I mean cause, promote, aid, etc. in genocides. Examples are the Rwanda genocide, Sudan, starvation in Niger, etc. If we expand it beyond genocide to crimes against humanity and other atrocities then the list gets larger. Several European countries are actively involved in genocides and colonialism.

I think you are suffering from a misunderstanding of the word cause, failure to prevent sure... to claim that the EU caused Rwandan and Sudanese genocide is more than a bit of a stretch. Even if you are talking prevention then it is the UN that you should be taking your argument to not the EU. President Clinton certainly feels the US didn't do enough either... If you are claiming that past European colonialism was to blame then you may be approaching some sort of rational argument.

Expanding your list to crimes against humanity can be applied to just about any country in the world currently and is pretty pointless. I am not defending the EU as some kind of great organisation but instead taking issue with your rather pointless and stupid assertion that the EU being involved in any other country will somehow cause a genocide.

I am curious as to which genocides you are saying the EU is currently actively involved in though...

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21

Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon

Originally posted by: linkgoron

Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Just leave em the hell alone.

:thumbsup: x 10

Why do you guys keep making these threads? Iran hasn't DONE anything wrong. Guilty before committing the crime ... is that an American tradition? Bomb the living daylights out of anyone who doesn't agree with you ... is THAT an all-American concept?

Sheesh!

So basically, you shouldn't arrest someone that threats to kill a person, because he hasn't done anything.

Iran has threatened to "kill" whom?

Israel for one.

May I see a reference please?

"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map"

(Edit: I suck at linking)

So we're the world's police force? Last time I checked, Israel had a big military (thanks to the U.S.) and lots of nukes. Let Israel defend Israel.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: ShinGouki

I think you are suffering from a misunderstanding of the word cause, failure to prevent sure... to claim that the EU caused Rwandan and Sudanese genocide is more than a bit of a stretch. Even if you are talking prevention then it is the UN that you should be taking your argument to not the EU. President Clinton certainly feels the US didn't do enough either...

I'm refering to France here. France organized, aided, and participated in the Rwanda genocide. Interesting how you refer to what's happening in Sudan as genocide when European governments refuse to even call it one.

If you are claiming that past European colonialism was to blame then you may be approaching some sort of rational argument.

Past and current European colonialism.

Expanding your list to crimes against humanity can be applied to just about any country in the world currently and is pretty pointless. I am not defending the EU as some kind of great organisation but instead taking issue with your rather pointless and stupid assertion that the EU being involved in any other country will somehow cause a genocide.

I'm not saying that the EU being involved will always cause a genocide. You should look closely at what I said.

I am curious as to which genocides you are saying the EU is currently actively involved in though...

I don't think that they are actively participating in a genocide right now (at least not openly), but they do support what is happening in Sudan, just finished creating a manmade famine in Niger last year, etc. I also believe that many European governments and groups are preparing a large-scale genocide of minorities for the near future.

 

[Future Shock]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I mean cause, promote, aid, etc. in genocides. Examples are the Rwanda genocide, Sudan, starvation in Niger, etc. If we expand it beyond genocide to crimes against humanity and other atrocities then the list gets larger. Several European countries are actively involved in genocides and colonialism.

Yes, you are RIGHT: everywhere a European country has given up enforcing colonial status to the lands they once ruled, genocide seems to happen fairly frequently. This is obviously caused by the indigent peoples not being able to take care of themselves...hence, more colonialism is needed to prevent future genocides. Remember, they didn't call it "The White Man's Burden" for nothing...

So let's start a write-in campaign to Brussles endorsing wholesale colonialism from the EU to ensure that genocide does not transpire in it's former colonies. The EU can always use the US'es playbook from Iraq to ensure a successful re-occupation!

ROTFLMFAO......

Future Shock

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Future Shock

Yes, you are RIGHT: everywhere a European country has given up enforcing colonial status to the lands they once ruled, genocide seems to happen fairly frequently. This is obviously caused by the indigent peoples not being able to take care of themselves...hence, more colonialism is needed to prevent future genocides. Remember, they didn't call it "The White Man's Burden" for nothing...

No, not everywhere.

So let's start a write-in campaign to Brussles endorsing wholesale colonialism from the EU to ensure that genocide does not transpire in it's former colonies. The EU can always use the US'es playbook from Iraq to ensure a successful re-occupation!

Well, several EU countries are involved with Iraq. And European involvement (France) certainly caused genocide in Rwanda. I think that we can expect more genocides and atrocities as Europe continues to decline. They won't go down without taking others with them.

 

[ShinGouki]

"to claim that the EU caused Rwandan and Sudanese genocide is more than a bit of a stretch." - I am referring to your claim. I don't really feel like going into a discussion about what is and isn't technically a genocide. Whats happening there is pretty horrible i dont' really care about the different definitions the US and UN *not EU* decide to use to describe it.

As for French involvement in Rwanda whilst the allegations against France are obviously pretty incrimiating if true it is still not an indictment of the EU as a whole and certainly doesn't equate to the EU causing genocide. Last time i checked the EU wasn't just France. I'm the last person to want to defend French actions abroad even if the allegations about Rwanda were to be found to be untrue I'm sure they've caused plenty of other problems. I know my own country is far from perfect in this department, but then I'm unaware again of many developed nations that this doesn't apply to almost equally as much US included.

Large-scale genocide of minorities in the near future... you make this all sound so pre meditated, what exactly is your problem with Europeans? Plenty of us happen to co-exist happily minoritys or otherwise. Not all of us are biggoted fearmongering imperialists believe it or not. Did you suffer some kind of bullying from Europeans at school or something I don't understand your apparent prejudices towards Europeans as a whole. Criticise European policy all you like but at least do it at appropriate times.

As for looking carefully at what you said perhaps you should read what I said more carefully too, i fail to see where I assert that you claimed EU involvement always causes genocide. I still think your " The EU generally causes genocides" comment is a more than a bit of a stretch. You don't think that this implies that EU involvement more often than not causes genocide? It's quite a strong word to be bandying around so flippantly and that is what I'm actually taking issue with. Your debasing the meaning of an extreme word that should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances, not idly in some random thread about Iran.

Oh and in answer to the original question, would I support millitary force against Iran. What is the actual cause for millitary force? What is it they have actually done so far that should make me consider the use of millitary force? Do i think they are a potential threat yes. Do i think China is yes. Do i think the crazy drunk round the corner from where i live is yes. Doesn't mean I think that i should initiate some kind of millitary strike on any of them.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: ShinGouki...what exactly is your problem with Europeans? Plenty of us happen to co-exist happily minoritys or otherwise. Not all of us are biggoted fearmongering imperialists believe it or not. Did you suffer some kind of bullying from Europeans at school or something I don't understand your apparent prejudices towards Europeans as a whole.

His problem is that he is a troll, ie he gets a rise out of annoying other poeple on online message boards. To do this, he has to post the outrageous and idiotic things he can think of.

This particular troll's persona happens to be the righteous crusader out against the evil europeans, assumed to be the root of all evil the world. Other trolls on this board include the ultra nationalist right wing republicans, the crazed out anti-corporation conspiracy theorist etc etc.

Best to ignore them...

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: ShinGouki
"to claim that the EU caused Rwandan and Sudanese genocide is more than a bit of a stretch." - I am referring to your claim. I don't really feel like going into a discussion about what is and isn't technically a genocide. Whats happening there is pretty horrible i dont' really care about the different definitions the US and UN *not EU* decide to use to describe it.

As for French involvement in Rwanda whilst the allegations against France are obviously pretty incrimiating if true it is still not an indictment of the EU as a whole and certainly doesn't equate to the EU causing genocide. Last time i checked the EU wasn't just France. I'm the last person to want to defend French actions abroad even if the allegations about Rwanda were to be found to be untrue I'm sure they've caused plenty of other problems. I know my own country is far from perfect in this department, but then I'm unaware again of many developed nations that this doesn't apply to almost equally as much US included.

An organization composed of and led by tyrannical regimes is most likely going to be tyrannical.

Large-scale genocide of minorities in the near future... you make this all sound so pre meditated, what exactly is your problem with Europeans? Plenty of us happen to co-exist happily minoritys or otherwise. Not all of us are biggoted fearmongering imperialists believe it or not. Did you suffer some kind of bullying from Europeans at school or something I don't understand your apparent prejudices towards Europeans as a whole. Criticise European policy all you like but at least do it at appropriate times.

I criticize European policy and the Europeans that make the racist portion of the society. Unfortunately, that is a very large portion of the society according to surveys and studies regarding the matter. Many Europeans also support colonialism without realizing they do such as their support for Kyoto, ICC, etc.

It's really no different than criticizing neo-cons or any other group. Unfortunately, there are many Eurosupremacists on this forum. Criticism of anything European is viewed negatively here.

 

[IdioticBuffoon]

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21

Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon

Originally posted by: linkgoron

Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Just leave em the hell alone.

:thumbsup: x 10

Why do you guys keep making these threads? Iran hasn't DONE anything wrong. Guilty before committing the crime ... is that an American tradition? Bomb the living daylights out of anyone who doesn't agree with you ... is THAT an all-American concept?

Sheesh!

So basically, you shouldn't arrest someone that threats to kill a person, because he hasn't done anything.

Iran has threatened to "kill" whom?

Israel for one.

May I see a reference please?

"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map"

(Edit: I suck at linking)

Not quite.

"An independent translation of the original (like the version published by ISNA) yields that Ahmadinejad does not use the term 'map'. He quotes Ayatollah Khomeini's assertion that the occupation regime must vanish from this world - literally translated: from the arena of times. Correspondingly: there is no space for an occupation regime in this world respectively in this time. The formulation 'wipe off the map' used by the 'New York Times' is a very free and aggravating interpretation which is equivalent to 'razing something to the ground' or 'annihilating something'. The downwelling translation, first into English ('wipe off the map'), then from English to German - and all literally ('von der Landkarte löschen') - makes us stride away from the original more and more. The perfidious thing about this translation is that the expression 'map' can only be used in one (intentional) way: a state can be removed from a map but not a regime, about which Ahmadinejad is actually speaking."

Link

 

[Bateluer]

Just my 2 cents here. Iran wants to develop nuclear weapons. Even if their govt does not support use of their nukes, how long do you think it would be before the terrorist organizations they harbor would get control of nuclear ordinance? Since the president of Iran is a member of the terrorist group Hamas, I would bet that it wouldn't take long. These people have proven they have zero respect for human life.

Personally, whether or not I would support a UN/NATO/EU effort against Iran would depend on the commander in charge. I'd definitely want that individual to have a lot of field experience, even for a general grade officer.

 

[IdioticBuffoon]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
Since the president of Iran is a member of the terrorist group Hamas

Really?

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Well, several EU countries are involved with Iraq. And European involvement (France) certainly caused genocide in Rwanda. I think that we can expect more genocides and atrocities as Europe continues to decline. They won't go down without taking others with them.

I bet that you look forward to the possibility that Europe, European culture, and perhaps, European people vanish from this planet. Am I right?

 

[nCred]

Canoworms seems to have a deep hatred of europeans, look at his reply in this thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=52&threadid=1845754
"I think the view of Hitler is still firmly in place in Europe, especially with the rise of the supremacist far-right. He's a folk hero there and his views are taking over mainstream politics again. Hence, concepts such as the introduction of concentration camps for refugees are becoming popular again.

I doubt a WW3 would change European views considering that WW1 and WW2 didn't change them. They still preach racism, genocide, etc. It's interesting how so little has changed."

Hitler a folk hero in Europe, ook..

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Well, several EU countries are involved with Iraq. And European involvement (France) certainly caused genocide in Rwanda. I think that we can expect more genocides and atrocities as Europe continues to decline. They won't go down without taking others with them.

I bet that you look forward to the possibility that Europe, European culture, and perhaps, European people vanish from this planet. Am I right?

No. But I do look forward to the possibility of European supremacy and influence upon the world to decline. I don't think that it's much different than people wanting the US to have less influence.

I bet that you look forward to the possibility that Alabama, Alabamian culture, and perhaps, Alabamian people vanish from this planet. Am I right? Or replace Alabama with any other conservative state or group.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: nCred
Canoworms seems to have a deep hatred of europeans, look at his reply in this thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=52&threadid=1845754
"I think the view of Hitler is still firmly in place in Europe, especially with the rise of the supremacist far-right. He's a folk hero there and his views are taking over mainstream politics again. Hence, concepts such as the introduction of concentration camps for refugees are becoming popular again.

I doubt a WW3 would change European views considering that WW1 and WW2 didn't change them. They still preach racism, genocide, etc. It's interesting how so little has changed."

Hitler a folk hero in Europe, ook..

I knew you posted here when I saw you listed on the "last post by" column in the forum index

That doesn't show a deep hatred of Europeans, but of some European beliefs and practices (especially history since that post was around the time I was talking about Europeans whitewashing their history similar to the Japanese and the Rape of Nanking). What you posted is a perfect example of what I've been talking about - the criticism of anything Europe is viewed as some sort of blasphemy and must be subdued.

Hitler is indeed becoming a greater folk hero in Europe. He's a hero to the growing far-right racist elements within European society. You continue to ignore the growing problem. I suspect it's because it would diminish your Eurosupremacist views. Europe has declined militarily, economically, culturally, etc. You are trying to cling to some misguided view that Europe is a moral superpower. Recognizing the growing problem would challenge your views, so you pretend it's not happening.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: ShinGouki...what exactly is your problem with Europeans? Plenty of us happen to co-exist happily minoritys or otherwise. Not all of us are biggoted fearmongering imperialists believe it or not. Did you suffer some kind of bullying from Europeans at school or something I don't understand your apparent prejudices towards Europeans as a whole.

His problem is that he is a troll, ie he gets a rise out of annoying other poeple on online message boards. To do this, he has to post the outrageous and idiotic things he can think of.

This particular troll's persona happens to be the righteous crusader out against the evil europeans, assumed to be the root of all evil the world. Other trolls on this board include the ultra nationalist right wing republicans, the crazed out anti-corporation conspiracy theorist etc etc.

Best to ignore them...

You're one to call someone a troll.

 

[B00ne]

No - well depends, but led by the EU smells desaster

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: ShinGouki
To CanOWorms

From wikipedia
The European Union (EU) is an intergovernmental and supranational union of 25 democratic member states from the European continent. The European Union was established under that name in 1992 by the Treaty on European Union (the Maastricht Treaty).

So urm which genocides was it that the EU has caused since 1992. And I assume you actually mean caused and not *could / should have prevented*.

As a European Citizen I'm curious to know .

Pssst - the can of worms is served best if u do not open it.

 

[Mardeth]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Hitler is indeed becoming a greater folk hero in Europe. He's a hero to the growing far-right racist elements within European society. You continue to ignore the growing problem. I suspect it's because it would diminish your Eurosupremacist views. Europe has declined militarily, economically, culturally, etc. You are trying to cling to some misguided view that Europe is a moral superpower. Recognizing the growing problem would challenge your views, so you pretend it's not happening.

Yes, its not like you get arrested for denying the holocaust or anything. There are Hitler supporters everywhere including Europe, but I bet there are more in the US...

 

[Proletariat]

Yea I'd support force against Iran.

Oh and offtopic but... has anyone noticed that that Ahmednijad guy is one ugly dude?

http://www.metemad.com/archives/ahmadinejad-thumb.jpg

 

[nCred]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: nCred
Canoworms seems to have a deep hatred of europeans, look at his reply in this thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=52&threadid=1845754
"I think the view of Hitler is still firmly in place in Europe, especially with the rise of the supremacist far-right. He's a folk hero there and his views are taking over mainstream politics again. Hence, concepts such as the introduction of concentration camps for refugees are becoming popular again.

I doubt a WW3 would change European views considering that WW1 and WW2 didn't change them. They still preach racism, genocide, etc. It's interesting how so little has changed."

Hitler a folk hero in Europe, ook..

I knew you posted here when I saw you listed on the "last post by" column in the forum index

That doesn't show a deep hatred of Europeans, but of some European beliefs and practices (especially history since that post was around the time I was talking about Europeans whitewashing their history similar to the Japanese and the Rape of Nanking). What you posted is a perfect example of what I've been talking about - the criticism of anything Europe is viewed as some sort of blasphemy and must be subdued.

Hitler is indeed becoming a greater folk hero in Europe. He's a hero to the growing far-right racist elements within European society. You continue to ignore the growing problem. I suspect it's because it would diminish your Eurosupremacist views. Europe has declined militarily, economically, culturally, etc. You are trying to cling to some misguided view that Europe is a moral superpower. Recognizing the growing problem would challenge your views, so you pretend it's not happening.

I think you have a deep hatred of Europe because you´ve been posting the same crap for years.. (Like Europe going to execute all muslims or lock them up i concentration camps, europeans admiring Hitler etc.)
Please tell me when I said Europe was a moral superpower, I was only pointing out that you always post lies and twist the truth.

The right-wing parties gaining support in SOME European countries (declining in some others) are looking to limit immigration, they are not national-socialists.

 

[rickn]

I would support it if the UN security council authorized it. China, Europe and Russia have more to fear than the USA. But other than that, Bush cannot be trusted with the facts. I mean his administration is nothing but liars.

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21

Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon

Originally posted by: linkgoron

Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Just leave em the hell alone.

:thumbsup: x 10

Why do you guys keep making these threads? Iran hasn't DONE anything wrong. Guilty before committing the crime ... is that an American tradition? Bomb the living daylights out of anyone who doesn't agree with you ... is THAT an all-American concept?

Sheesh!

So basically, you shouldn't arrest someone that threats to kill a person, because he hasn't done anything.

Iran has threatened to "kill" whom?

Israel for one.

May I see a reference please?

"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map"

(Edit: I suck at linking)

Israel is not the United States of America. Besides, Irans kookie leaders just want the name Israel wiped off the map, they want to relocate Israeli citizens to Europs and America.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: ShinGouki...what exactly is your problem with Europeans? Plenty of us happen to co-exist happily minoritys or otherwise. Not all of us are biggoted fearmongering imperialists believe it or not. Did you suffer some kind of bullying from Europeans at school or something I don't understand your apparent prejudices towards Europeans as a whole.

His problem is that he is a troll, ie he gets a rise out of annoying other poeple on online message boards. To do this, he has to post the outrageous and idiotic things he can think of.

This particular troll's persona happens to be the righteous crusader out against the evil europeans, assumed to be the root of all evil the world. Other trolls on this board include the ultra nationalist right wing republicans, the crazed out anti-corporation conspiracy theorist etc etc.

Best to ignore them...

You're one to call someone a troll.

Just becuase you don't have a sense of humour, doesn't mean I'm a troll...

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Granted, one can't argue that the US isn't the strongest proponent of action against Iran, but these recent talks about Iran pulling out of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty has the UN as a whole alarmed. Would you be more supportive of a collective NATO (or similar organization) military effort against Iran than you would of a US alone invasion?
Thoughts?

No. Europe will easily cave in to American demands and it will be a proxy war led by America like it did with the USSR in Afghanistan.