Would a program like the CCC be possible today?

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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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Is it possible that every generation has been correct? How can you simply write that off as a "quirk of human psychology"? What are metrics?

If every generation were correct, then we'd be a 3rd world country by now; or worse. Standards change, they always have and always will. I think the generation below me is shit. You probably think my generation is shit. and so it goes. :D

Another useless reply.

fair enough, but do you honestly think the idea has a snowball's chance in hell in this political climate?
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
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It might work if:

1. Obviously the pay would have to be much higher. How much should be the subject of a study. Without compensation it'd be foolish to expect hard-working Americans to want those jobs unless you give them away to undocumented immigrants who are desperate in the first place (and we shouldn't prey on them). You can't on the one hand say free markets solve market skills problems by paying you the high salary you deserve without applying the same concepts to this proposed gov't program.

2. If the skills were lasting and transferable to higher paying jobs OR there was a guarantee that entrants wouldn't be tied down to said laborious job long-term. There's no point in fostering and developing a generation of ditch diggers, as they're dead-end careers, but it could be a good and lasting life experience if it were a temporary circumstance. Nothing wrong with that.

3. We don't really need as many laborers as I think people believe. Automation and immigrants have made that old world thinking. That economy isn't ever coming back barring an Apocalypse.

Is it possible that every generation has been correct? How can you simply write that off as a "quirk of human psychology"? What are metrics?

I think my #3 bullet point above partially addresses that; it's kind of common sense, but not entirely unprovable, that we've become more industrialized and mechanized so that each new generation tends to think the prior ones have a little less elbow grease in them. But this isn't the same thing as lacking character, skills, smarts, class or the like. More likely it's a psychological quirk and/or a consequence of technology.

And I've talked to plenty of older folk, including my own father, and frankly they marvel at the "things kids do these days", so your mileage varies based on what baby boomer you're talking to. Additionally, something else that is provable and documented; humans tend to gravitate toward the negative, as seen in negative advertising, negative news stories and in this specific conversation negative outlooks on current generations as compared to past generations.
 
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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My argument would simply be scale. If every 20 years or so we observed this generational damage to work ethic, increased sloth, whatever, then the trend that Socrates observed in ~400BC would have cycled about 120 times by this point.

Considering the dramatic decline that is consistently noted by these observers, allow me to register my large degree of skepticism that after so many repetitions that human society would be very functional at all, much less have leapfrogged prior generations so completely.

Isn't the far more likely explanation that people view the past more favorably than it actually was?

Most of history was dominated by agrarian societies, where if you didn't work, you didn't eat. It has only been since the industrial revolution, and more specifically since the rise of the welfare state, has that changed to, if you don't work, you'll get your home, food and other basic necessities paid for. So no, I believe we've only seen a few generations now where basic societal expectations of the individual have begun to fall apart.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
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And I've talked to plenty of older folk, including my own father, and frankly they marvel at the "things kids do these days", so your mileage varies based on what baby boomer you're talking to. Additionally, something else that is provable and documented; humans tend to gravitate toward the negative, as seen in negative advertising, negative news stories and in this specific conversation negative outlooks on current generations as compared to past generations.

Great point.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
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My argument would simply be scale. If every 20 years or so we observed this generational damage to work ethic, increased sloth, whatever, then the trend that Socrates observed in ~400BC would have cycled about 120 times by this point.

Considering the dramatic decline that is consistently noted by these observers, allow me to register my large degree of skepticism that after so many repetitions that human society would be very functional at all, much less have leapfrogged prior generations so completely.

Isn't the far more likely explanation that people view the past more favorably than it actually was?
Because its a cycle :)

The Renaissance era was from the 14th to 17th century and ended with the infamous "let them eat cake" French revolution (At least in France, anyway). Preceding the Renaissance era was stuff like the Inquisition. Seems societies flip between 300 year or so eras of prosperity and then they slip into the dark ages for awhile and when people tire of that shit (like 100-150 years or so) another golden age comes about.

Everything happening right now has happened in the past, some in the recent past, some much further back but nothing about the social decay is all that unique, or unexpected to me.

If we had our shit together realistically we would be doing infrastructure projects that are more forward looking, like efficient transportation of goods. Meaning Old-fashioned rail lines to shipping docks, the Mississippi included. Green energy is a feel-good waste of time. If you could call this the end of the modern oil age I would expect the next age to be the age of conservation as the planet reaches overpopulation. Build infrastructure now while we can that will save us real energy gains in the future. China is kicking our ass with the three gorges dam.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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Most of history was dominated by agrarian societies, where if you didn't work, you didn't eat. It has only been since the industrial revolution, and more specifically since the rise of the welfare state, has that changed to, if you don't work, you'll get your home, food and other basic necessities paid for. So no, I believe we've only seen a few generations now where basic societal expectations of the individual have begun to fall apart.

Heh. The part you don't want to recognize is that the mighty Job Creators don't need or want all of us to work. Automation & offshoring have seen to that.

Remember when they promised us that automation would give us more leisure time? It has, just not in ways we expected or that are socially constructive. We've concentrated "leisure time" in a subset of the population, the un- and under- employed, even as those of us still working do so for a smaller piece of national income.

Why? Because the financial benefits of automation & offshoring go to those who own, not those who work. Until we can find a way to reconceptualize how that's supposed to work, what constitutes ownership, self righteous headsets like your own will continue to drag us down into greater & greater inequality.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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The CCC enabled workers specialized training. Carpentry, welding, equipment operation, etc.

The same could happen again. Public projects are completed and useful OJT to go out as a journeyman into the private sector.

Unions might complain, but they have a wealth if potential workers being trained.
Two points. First, trade unions train the number of journeymen which their local market needs. They are threatened not by lack of potential workers, but by illegals coming in and working cheaply. Second, trade unions generally do a much better job of training than does government, if only because their instructors are mostly the employers. Government instructors would as always be unaccountable for their results and increasingly divorced from the reality of the trade they are teaching.

No, it wouldn't work today. The society has changed too much- not for the better.

Anyone watch Ken Burn's documentary on the Dust Bowl? (Netflix it.)

One thing that really struck me watching that (and by the way just about anything with people from that era interviewed) the freakin' iron clad CHARACTER that people (imposed by the society at large) had back then.

Now that dustbowl shit was a true disaster; a decade-long disaster of a magnitude most people today can't imagine- and yet a theme I noticed through the whole thing was that even having gone through that, people felt reluctant to take "handouts" from government or anyone else. They did so as a last resort, and even then (with their entire lives buried under dirt!) felt guilty about it.

Most people with that kind of unshakable character- you could give them the choice of a tough job vs. a handout and they'd take the tough job and THANK you for it, work their asses off, proudly, and do anything to not be seen as a burden.

Today? Pfft. Forget it.

As a society, we've devolved into anything difficult being beneath us. Everybody is a fucking movie star/rock star/undiscovered genius gift to the world and all mankind. FUCK work! Everyone is too fucking good for that. In fact, even with rampant unemployment, we need congress to bring in millions of unskilled illegal aliens to do all that work bullshit for us. Rockstars don't work- they chill while the slaves toil away for them.

And forget the ground flying into the air and covering your fucking house/choking your lungs for fucking years- today everything is a top magnitude disaster worthy of not only a handout, but everybody better fucking fall to their knees and cry AND bring out their fucking wallet.

Lost your job? "POOR ME! WHERE'S MY CHECK??!!!"

Felt insulted based on race/sex/looked at the wrong way/disagreed with: "WAAAHHHH!!! WHERE'S MY FUCKING CHECK??!!!!!!!!!???!!!"

Anything even resembling an actual *no shit* disaster befalls you? "EVERYONE OWES ME FOR THE REST OF MY DAYS ON THIS PLANET!!!! PAY UP BITCHES!!!!!!!!"

Yeah- the above mindset actually work HARD LABOR at something (!!??!) vs. a handout to fund their rockstar birthright lifestyle?

PFFT! Bend over and reach for your wallet and get out of here with this work/slave labor idea.
Well said. Still, I'm going to defend unemployment insurance. If government is going to withhold money from my check for UI, then damned straight I want my check if I'm laid off. It's not a handout if you're forced to pay for it.

Viable? As employment falls under government regulation you can bet that a labor camp program will be a necessity. That our government will "help" the people in need with suitable accommodations such as those found at Foxconn.

I view such labor as our inevitable future while under the boot of central planning and a government's need to care for its people who are suffering.

Look to Health Care as the model to move forward. The system was not optimal for those who viewed Health Care as a right to be enjoyed by all. So our loving government stuck its hand in the cookie jar. Now the system is all but destroyed - they will need another solution. Single Payer. We WILL have this, if they were clever it'd even be modeled after Social Security where the young make payments towards those in need, in exchange for a program to exist for them in the future.

I digress, the point is conditions are ripe for meddling, especially for those with a solution to everything. Labor camps will be our unemployment solution, given how fruitless "shovel ready" jobs were under "stimulus". The more our economy falters, the closer we move towards the People's Republic.
I think we're seeing an increased march toward volunteerism, with government providing all your basic needs. At some point, yes, that becomes the people's Republic, though there will still be opportunities for those with the skills or connections to rise above.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
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Probably not, but it sounds like this isn't a bad thing. I won't pretend that taking young people and making them dig ditches and live in tents is something we should aspire to or applaud. I think the US has enough net wealth it need not resort to such things.

This notion of life-long benefits--people who can go indefinitely without working despite no major reason not too--is a real problem, though.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
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This thread exemplifies the prejudice & delusion of Righties.

It's easy to talk shit & say it wouldn't work when congressional Repubs make sure it'll never happen, because that'd just be more ebil big gubmint, after all, even as it might reduce the chances for more tax cuts for the sacred Job Creators to, uhh, create jobs, as if cutting their taxes ever accomplished that in the first place. They already have all the employees they need & want. If they didn't, they'd hire more.

I'm sure many "righties" would actually like to see people receiving welfare or other public assistance actually earning it and at the same time, gaining marketable skills.

But of course, many such as yourself think government assistance is a "right" and any conditions attached to it are [insert racist, sexist, or any other -ist you can think of].

Why? Because the financial benefits of automation & offshoring go to those who own, not those who work. Until we can find a way to reconceptualize how that's supposed to work, what constitutes ownership, self righteous headsets like your own will continue to drag us down into greater & greater inequality.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps government is part of the problem? Tell me what you think your beloved government should do to remedy the situation.

Are you the one that works for state government (I might have you confused with another)? What is preventing you from starting your own company or doing something independent, such as consulting?
 
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IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
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What I would be most interested to see is a survey like that every five years. I have a strong suspicion that each and every time similar numbers of people would deride new employees as compared to the wonderful five year ago employees.

It's sort of related to how every generation thinks the Kids These Days are particularly arrogant, undisciplined, ignorant, whatever, despite that being what every generation has thought about the next generation for thousands of years. It's just a quirk of human psychology.

It is probably true to some extent. When kids come out of college, they tend to think they know everything and have all the answers and it pisses the old timers off. I know I was certainly arrogant coming out of school but years and years of experience taught me that school is a small (very small) component in most occupations.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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Two points. First, trade unions train the number of journeymen which their local market needs. They are threatened not by lack of potential workers, but by illegals coming in and working cheaply. Second, trade unions generally do a much better job of training than does government, if only because their instructors are mostly the employers. Government instructors would as always be unaccountable for their results and increasingly divorced from the reality of the trade they are teaching.

I was intending that unions would not want the work going to people that are non union

I agree that the experts should be the teachers; There is no reason why experts could not be used for training in such programs


Well said. Still, I'm going to defend unemployment insurance. If government is going to withhold money from my check for UI, then damned straight I want my check if I'm laid off. It's not a handout if you're forced to pay for it.
Have you ever seen a line item on your pay stub for un-employment insurance/tax?
It is a tax by the state on the employer based on size of company and amount of claims



I think we're seeing an increased march toward volunteerism, with government providing all your basic needs. At some point, yes, that becomes the people's Republic, though there will still be opportunities for those with the skills or connections to rise above.

Comments in bold
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,755
541
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Did it ever occur to you that perhaps government is part of the problem?

As far as many politicians if not majority of them allowing themselves to be bought by wealthy donor then yes that is the problem. If not for that, and the fact that the problem has gotten much worse in recent decades I would largely disagree.

As for the need for a CCC and recessions we do have a need for infrastructure maintenance and improvements that have been ignored enough that engineers grade the U.S. infrastructure overall at a "C"


Other countries do have interesting ideas on how to deal with recessions.

Germany has a program whereby a company that needs to achieve savings in labor costs instead of laying off 25% (for example) of the workers will lower hours for the workers by 25%.

This keeps the employees around instead of having some newly unemployed people having to depend entirely on assistance and when the economy picks back up the skills they developed for their job have been kept in practice.

The real issue that leads to conversations like this are (imo) detailed in this TED talk
http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html


====
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
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352
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The unemployed that would be affected by a move from unemployment benefits as they currently stand to a program like the CCC vote, their families vote.

With this in mind, it is impossible to enact a program like the CCC today.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
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As far as many politicians if not majority of them allowing themselves to be bought by wealthy donor then yes that is the problem. If not for that, and the fact that the problem has gotten much worse in recent decades I would largely disagree.

I'd agree with that. Both Democrats and Republicans sell out to the highest bidder.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
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The unemployed that would be affected by a move from unemployment benefits as they currently stand to a program like the CCC vote, their families vote.

With this in mind, it is impossible to enact a program like the CCC today.

Nah, it's nowhere near impossible. You could absolutely pitch a CCC program in this modern era if the incentives, pay, social networks, etc. were properly put in place. Some motivating factor, greater good or combination of both would need to be instituted and touted by someone of great influence; say, the POTUS.

To me, the most obvious core component of this program would be some sort of green initiative. Let's assume a modern CCC enrolled only 18-25 year olds the way it did during the New Deal; the reason CCC targeted those age groups was partially because youth unemployment is always higher, partially because they're in better physical shape and partially because training youths presumably has longer-lasting positive economic effects. From that green perspective, it's not hard to imagine an environmentally friendly POTUS who's got a good rapport with universities, teachers and unions, pitching the idea of youth labor, both physical and skilled, to help to beautify and improve communities. Some specific green initiatives could be something like Habitat for Humanity style home building and rejuvenation for neighborhoods whose states have prioritized building elsewhere. It could be clean air and water initiatives in lakes, ponds and swamps. It could be social media outreach training and organizing, with labor unions obviously being key here. These are things youths are already far more interested in and attuned to than the youth of the 1930's. Not that that generation hated the environment, I'm sure they appreciated it and I'm certainly not an expert on the social construct of that decade, but I'd bet dollar to donuts they were simply nowhere near as informed and/or interested in the environment as our young whippersnappers are today.

I'd be pretty excited to be a part of a modern CCC program if I were an 18-25 year old, but there are issues. You would need as I said the right incentives and would be absolutely have to be paid for responsibly. To pay for it, you'd have issues of whether CCC would be voluntary, but if you made it mandatory with a small fee exemption (like the mandate), it'd work. Charge a small fee that's just large enough to incentivize enough youths to enroll to avoid said fee, but small enough that enough will just pay the fee to avoid CCC, which both helps raise money for this project (which obviously desperately does need to be paid for, lots of administrative overhead in this program) while also enrolling enough youths to make it work in the first place. Some incentives can also include school credit, good pay of some sort, internship-style stuff but without exploiting their labor at depressed wages the way some corporations take advantage of unpaid interns. CCC I think might inevitably result in some trade union opposition due to the low wage issue (though perhaps not enough to matter) and perhaps most significantly you'd see pushback from over-25 laborers who will be crowded out from these economic opportunities due to their age; construction workers if we're doing Habitat for Humanity stuff, undocumented immigrants, etc.

In any case, a marriage of high schools, universities and various local or national businesses working in concert to train and employ youths that helps build infrastructure frankly sounds great to me personally.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
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Reading more about CCC, the program was expanded to 28 year olds a few years after its inception and then back down to 23 year olds. It also eventually included exemptions for veterans because the military reserve ran logistics on the whole CCC program. With that in mind you could allow some 25+ year olds into the program for some special reason; for example, maybe they're particularly skilled and experienced laborers who would add substantially to a modern CCC, but can't get in only due to age. I'd still make them go through educational/vocational training to add to their skills. Though one issue here is that the original CCC apparently was a full 40 hour 5 day workweek. I don't think that's realistic or frankly necessary.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Reading more about CCC, the program was expanded to 28 year olds a few years after its inception and then back down to 23 year olds. It also eventually included exemptions for veterans because the military reserve ran logistics on the whole CCC program. With that in mind you could allow some 25+ year olds into the program for some special reason; for example, maybe they're particularly skilled and experienced laborers who would add substantially to a modern CCC, but can't get in only due to age. I'd still make them go through educational/vocational training to add to their skills. Though one issue here is that the original CCC apparently was a full 40 hour 5 day workweek. I don't think that's realistic or frankly necessary.

If you are going to train these kids in skill to get into the workforce; you need to properly train them as to also what to expect to utilize those skills.

As to "green" work; one only needs to look at the decay of the National Park system. The Coast Guard and Army COE continually are fighting to keep the waterways clear and not overgrown with weeds that choke out the other plant life as well as the aquatic stocks. channels on the rivers and posts are continually needed to be dredged.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
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so are you guys saying this program should be mandatory?

I'm confused as to why someone would do this but not just get a job?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
so are you guys saying this program should be mandatory?

I'm confused as to why someone would do this but not just get a job?

Many "claim" they can not get a job.
Here would be a job available to all comers that would pay more than the min wage and state "avg" unemployment.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
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If you are going to train these kids in skill to get into the workforce; you need to properly train them as to also what to expect to utilize those skills.

As to "green" work; one only needs to look at the decay of the National Park system. The Coast Guard and Army COE continually are fighting to keep the waterways clear and not overgrown with weeds that choke out the other plant life as well as the aquatic stocks. channels on the rivers and posts are continually needed to be dredged.

I wouldn't support a 40 hour workweek because that means you're cutting off every other avenue they have to independently looking for full-time private sector work. Most people aren't going to be nearly as able or frankly find nearly the time to look for work outside those 40 hours. Just not enough time in a week when business hours are generally 9-5 with many fewer businesses realistically taking cold calls on weekends.

I'm a little confused on your last point about green work.

so are you guys saying this program should be mandatory?

I'm confused as to why someone would do this but not just get a job?

You can't envision a scenario where someone takes a CCC job outdoors with in-class training in a relevant field included vs. someone taking a job at McDonalds or some other low wage job? And that assumes said job is even available in their area and that the economy isn't in recession, which isn't the case 10%-15% of the time people are employed. Certainly millions of Americans don't live in densely populated urban areas so getting a job is not nearly as easy as you believe it to be.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
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Many "claim" they can not get a job.
Here would be a job available to all comers that would pay more than the min wage and state "avg" unemployment.

oooh...we are just riding the trolley to the Land of Make Believe.


Gotcha....carry on.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
I'm sure many "righties" would actually like to see people receiving welfare or other public assistance actually earning it and at the same time, gaining marketable skills.

But of course, many such as yourself think government assistance is a "right" and any conditions attached to it are [insert racist, sexist, or any other -ist you can think of].

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps government is part of the problem? Tell me what you think your beloved government should do to remedy the situation.

Are you the one that works for state government (I might have you confused with another)? What is preventing you from starting your own company or doing something independent, such as consulting?

Pure false attribution & denial, of course.

I'll agree that govt has been part of the problem, ever since Reagan, even since Carter, who was a great fan of deregulation & "free markets".

They've followed trickle down Reaganomics clear to the end of the rope, the 2008 crash & the lingering lesser depression. Not to mention that the right wing has successfully inoculated their adherents against any idea that the reason there aren't enough jobs is because the Job Creators don't need us the way they once did- they have machines & exploited, underpaid Chinese to do the work for them.

The answer isn't to belittle the less fortunate, but rather to recognize that there's really more than enough to go around if we can take back our Govt from Monied Interests and institute what we really need, a new New Deal. The very existence of the American middle class is a historical anomaly, brought on by New Deal policy carried forward until the Reagan era. If we want to have a middle class, other than a very small one, we need to realize that & to once again think in those terms.

All this propaganda induced yammering about smaller govt has a nice emotional ring to it, until we realize that there aren't private sector jobs for laid off govt workers, nor will there be any time RSN. There already aren't enough jobs, so there's no point in making it worse, unless you're already Rich. The best time to be Rich is when everybody else is busted, broke & begging, which is exactly what Repubs are trying to achieve atm.