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World's biggest particle-smasher - Large Hadron Collider

AmdEmAll

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2000
6,699
9
81
One of the final pieces is being installed. Should be up and running in June if its not delayed again.

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com...2008/02/16/671015.aspx

What do you guys think of this thing? It honestly scares me a bit. Am I wrong to be a little worried... I mean no one really knows what will happen when this thing starts up. Could do nothing, or it could open a black hole. Im also very interested in seeing if this really does answer questions about dark matter and the universe.

Thoughts?
 

CrazyHelloDeli

Platinum Member
Jun 24, 2001
2,854
0
0
I think its exciting! Might get answers to some of physics toughest questions. As for it creating a black hole and destroying everything, who knows? I sure as hell lack the expertise to speculate either way. I seem to recall reading that many who detonated the first atomic weapon thought it would ignite earths atmosphere and scorch the planet, and we can see that didn't happen.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
To understand what happened during the big bang you need extremely high energy conditions. This apparatus will hopefully get us there.

I am not worried about it. If something happens, energy levels will drop below a crucial level and nothing happens.
 

event8horizon

Senior member
Nov 15, 2007
674
0
0
sweet, maybe they will be able to figure out the TOE (theory of everything). as for black holes, look into hawkings radiation. they "evaporate" over time from what he predicts!!!
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,293
14,712
146
My area was in the running for the Super Collider way back when...for whatever politcal reason, it was decided to build it in Texas...and that didn't happen either.


If it opens a black hole...will we even know it?
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Hopefully the LHC will detect the Higgs boson and put one of the remaining pieces of the standard theory into place.
 

event8horizon

Senior member
Nov 15, 2007
674
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Hopefully the LHC will detect the Higgs boson and put one of the remaining pieces of the standard theory into place.


we can finally agree on something!!
 

event8horizon

Senior member
Nov 15, 2007
674
0
0
i admit, ive never had a physics class in my life but i read everything around that has to do with space. i had a patient once that was a physics professor. i asked him what he thought of the string theory, and he gave me a thumbs up.....he was on the ventilator so he couldnt speak. anybody have any opinions on string theory???
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Am I the only one who wishes we (as a species) could spend more time on things like this and less fighting about pointless political issues? We have resources beyond imagining in any previous generation, we have reached the stage in our technological evolution where there is very little we can't do if we put our minds to it. The universe is a vast and wonderful place, and for the first time since our ancestors came out of their caves and gazed at the stars, we have the power to crack open the mysteries of the universe and peer inside. And yet for some reason we would rather focus on the minute differences between us to the point where we wage frequent and bloody wars over who prays to the right God.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,785
6,345
126
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Am I the only one who wishes we (as a species) could spend more time on things like this and less fighting about pointless political issues? We have resources beyond imagining in any previous generation, we have reached the stage in our technological evolution where there is very little we can't do if we put our minds to it. The universe is a vast and wonderful place, and for the first time since our ancestors came out of their caves and gazed at the stars, we have the power to crack open the mysteries of the universe and peer inside. And yet for some reason we would rather focus on the minute differences between us to the point where we wage frequent and bloody wars over who prays to the right God.

:thumbsup:
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Am I the only one who wishes we (as a species) could spend more time on things like this and less fighting about pointless political issues? We have resources beyond imagining in any previous generation, we have reached the stage in our technological evolution where there is very little we can't do if we put our minds to it. The universe is a vast and wonderful place, and for the first time since our ancestors came out of their caves and gazed at the stars, we have the power to crack open the mysteries of the universe and peer inside. And yet for some reason we would rather focus on the minute differences between us to the point where we wage frequent and bloody wars over who prays to the right God.

On the flipside maybe we should be spending all that money to try to end wars instead of on useless science expiriments...

just playing a little Devils Advocate here, but as an engineer I don't always have the best of respect for "purse science". Sure everyone would love to have more things like this, but the question is how does finding a Higgs boson help ME...
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,239
136
I don't think it will open a black hole. You need a fairly high critical mass to create that. Stars going nova don't often even create black holes, and that's a helluva lot bigger and more powerful than the LHC. God knows the things we are going to learn from it, but should be very exciting to see. I understand they are already designing it replacement tho...lol.


As big and crazy and expensive as that thing is, we blow that kind of dough every month in Iraq. Sheeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitttttt!
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Am I the only one who wishes we (as a species) could spend more time on things like this and less fighting about pointless political issues? We have resources beyond imagining in any previous generation, we have reached the stage in our technological evolution where there is very little we can't do if we put our minds to it. The universe is a vast and wonderful place, and for the first time since our ancestors came out of their caves and gazed at the stars, we have the power to crack open the mysteries of the universe and peer inside. And yet for some reason we would rather focus on the minute differences between us to the point where we wage frequent and bloody wars over who prays to the right God.

On the flipside maybe we should be spending all that money to try to end wars instead of on useless science expiriments...

just playing a little Devils Advocate here, but as an engineer I don't always have the best of respect for "purse science". Sure everyone would love to have more things like this, but the question is how does finding a Higgs boson help ME...

We don't know...and that's the point. I'm an engineer, too, but I respect the fact that almost everything I use came from undirected research done pretty much just to see what we can find out about the world we live in. Great leaps forward in science and technology don't come from straightforward design and implementation with a specific goal in mind, they are much more likely to come from someone just finding an interesting topic and poking at it until something cool pops out.

But that's just the engineer if me...the SCIENTIST in me says that it shouldn't matter. Even if there is no practical application at all, I think there are worse things to invest time and money in than the exploration of our universe. And nothing is more fundamental to that understanding than figuring out what went on in the first moments after the Big Bang. Compared to discovering the origin of, well, everything, helping you seems like a somewhat small goal.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,785
6,345
126
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Am I the only one who wishes we (as a species) could spend more time on things like this and less fighting about pointless political issues? We have resources beyond imagining in any previous generation, we have reached the stage in our technological evolution where there is very little we can't do if we put our minds to it. The universe is a vast and wonderful place, and for the first time since our ancestors came out of their caves and gazed at the stars, we have the power to crack open the mysteries of the universe and peer inside. And yet for some reason we would rather focus on the minute differences between us to the point where we wage frequent and bloody wars over who prays to the right God.

On the flipside maybe we should be spending all that money to try to end wars instead of on useless science expiriments...

just playing a little Devils Advocate here, but as an engineer I don't always have the best of respect for "purse science". Sure everyone would love to have more things like this, but the question is how does finding a Higgs boson help ME...

Possibly a whole lot, maybe not at all. Many other Accelerators have become magnets for Business who benefit(somehow I don't understand)from the Accelerator and many of the Products made by these Businesses can be purchased as we speak.

 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Possibly a whole lot, maybe not at all. Many other Accelerators have become magnets for Business who benefit(somehow I don't understand)from the Accelerator and many of the Products made by these Businesses can be purchased as we speak.

and an example of such a product is...?
 

AmdEmAll

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2000
6,699
9
81
Originally posted by: Hafen
I don't think it will open a black hole. You need a fairly high critical mass to create that. Stars going nova don't often even create black holes, and that's a helluva lot bigger and more powerful than the LHC. God knows the things we are going to learn from it, but should be very exciting to see. I understand they are already designing it replacement tho...lol.


As big and crazy and expensive as that thing is, we blow that kind of dough every month in Iraq. Sheeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitttttt!

Anymore info on this? I know the one that was being made in Texas is bigger than the one in Geneva but it was canceled :( After spending over 2 billion on it congress stopped funding.
 

nineball9

Senior member
Aug 10, 2003
789
0
76
Originally posted by: AmdEmAll
One of the final pieces is being installed. Should be up and running in June if its not delayed again.


What do you guys think of this thing? It honestly scares me a bit. Am I wrong to be a little worried... I mean no one really knows what will happen when this thing starts up. Could do nothing, or it could open a black hole. Im also very interested in seeing if this really does answer questions about dark matter and the universe.

Thoughts?

Afraid of "strangelets" too? :) Cosmic ray smash in to the earth's atmosphere with much higher energies than the LHC will produce yet we are still here. Cosmic rays (actually they are particles, not rays) would be ideal for subatomic investigation but we never know where or when they will encounter the earth.

Wikipedia on cosmic rays.

As for black holes, they would "evaporate" in an extremely short time. Many at CERN are hoping to create black holes, but the energy needed may be more than the LHC will produce; cosmic rays would (in theory) work though.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Am I the only one who wishes we (as a species) could spend more time on things like this and less fighting about pointless political issues? We have resources beyond imagining in any previous generation, we have reached the stage in our technological evolution where there is very little we can't do if we put our minds to it. The universe is a vast and wonderful place, and for the first time since our ancestors came out of their caves and gazed at the stars, we have the power to crack open the mysteries of the universe and peer inside. And yet for some reason we would rather focus on the minute differences between us to the point where we wage frequent and bloody wars over who prays to the right God.

On the flipside maybe we should be spending all that money to try to end wars instead of on useless science expiriments...

just playing a little Devils Advocate here, but as an engineer I don't always have the best of respect for "purse science". Sure everyone would love to have more things like this, but the question is how does finding a Higgs boson help ME...
It may not help you directly, though there is that distinct possibility. Since the Higgs boson is theorized to impart mass to every elementary particle in the universe, verifying its existence and understanding its functions and mecahnisms could provide an insight on manipulating mass. Maybe we could figure out how to take a few hundred tons of spacecraft and essentially render it massless through some field manipulations. Imagine the possibilities in regard to anti-gravity devices and accelerations to near light speed if that were possible. Discovery of the Higgs boson has the potential to change our world. Of course the impact of the discovery and the related spin-off tech may not be that significant, and probably won't be. However, the potential alone is something worthy of exploration. Plus it will give us that much further insight into the interplay of particles of our universe and how it all works.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Am I the only one who wishes we (as a species) could spend more time on things like this and less fighting about pointless political issues? We have resources beyond imagining in any previous generation, we have reached the stage in our technological evolution where there is very little we can't do if we put our minds to it. The universe is a vast and wonderful place, and for the first time since our ancestors came out of their caves and gazed at the stars, we have the power to crack open the mysteries of the universe and peer inside. And yet for some reason we would rather focus on the minute differences between us to the point where we wage frequent and bloody wars over who prays to the right God.

On the flipside maybe we should be spending all that money to try to end wars instead of on useless science expiriments...

just playing a little Devils Advocate here, but as an engineer I don't always have the best of respect for "purse science". Sure everyone would love to have more things like this, but the question is how does finding a Higgs boson help ME...

GEEEEZZZ! Just how does new knowledge help anyone? Goes right over my head!
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Originally posted by: CrazyHelloDeli
I think its exciting! Might get answers to some of physics toughest questions. As for it creating a black hole and destroying everything, who knows? I sure as hell lack the expertise to speculate either way. I seem to recall reading that many who detonated the first atomic weapon thought it would ignite earths atmosphere and scorch the planet, and we can see that didn't happen.
The black holes that might be created would be smaller than a single proton, and it would disintegrate quickly.


Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Am I the only one who wishes we (as a species) could spend more time on things like this and less fighting about pointless political issues? We have resources beyond imagining in any previous generation, we have reached the stage in our technological evolution where there is very little we can't do if we put our minds to it. The universe is a vast and wonderful place, and for the first time since our ancestors came out of their caves and gazed at the stars, we have the power to crack open the mysteries of the universe and peer inside. And yet for some reason we would rather focus on the minute differences between us to the point where we wage frequent and bloody wars over who prays to the right God.

On the flipside maybe we should be spending all that money to try to end wars instead of on useless science expiriments...

just playing a little Devils Advocate here, but as an engineer I don't always have the best of respect for "purse science". Sure everyone would love to have more things like this, but the question is how does finding a Higgs boson help ME...
Without pure science, we probably wouldn't have TV's, among many other things.
"I want something to display images on boxes. To do this, you're going to need to discover the electron, then figure out how it interacts with magnetic fields. I think you should also discover that moving electrons can create magnetic fields. Then it's going to hit a screen of a substance that will glow. Get a chemist and discover phosphorus. Get to work on it right away!"
(This is a paraphrasing and augmentation of what Carl Sagan said here.)
When phosphorus was discovered, was it so that they could use it in TV's? When it was found that coils of wire could produce magnetic fields, was that for use in TV's? Was the discovery of the electron motivated by a desire to watch Seinfeld?
If you've ever watched TV, you owe it to this kind of pure science.
If you want to, just skip to 2:50 in that video.

MRI's, CAT scans, X-ray's- take your pick; radiology in general. Again, electromagnets - when that property of moving electrons was discovered, do you think they had in mind, "We can use this to see inside of people!" Or the same with X-rays. Or how about study of radioactive minerals? "A rock that emits invisible light that can kill people slowly. This kind of emission might be useful to save lives some day!" Now technetium is used in medicine, to help find cancer. Radiation being used to help find cancerous tumors, imagine that. Madame Curie probably never had such things in mind while she studied invisible radiation.

Pure science is critical to the advancement of our species. Many uses for natural phenomena are discovered by accident. Want fire? Striking two rocks together probably isn't the first thing that comes to mind to do this, but it can work.

Without pure science, our technology will stagnate. We'll lose the ability to find truly new things. Some of it is just to say, "I wonder what will happen," or, "I wonder why this happens." A natural thing is observed, and someone else decides, "Hey, that's nifty. I think I can use that for something!" Often times, it's completely unrelated to the original discovery. When electromagnets were first constructed, they probably never envisioned the ability to use them to move tons of metallic waste with the flip of a small lever, or their use in transportation in the form of maglev trains.



Originally posted by: Hafen
I don't think it will open a black hole. You need a fairly high critical mass to create that. Stars going nova don't often even create black holes, and that's a helluva lot bigger and more powerful than the LHC. God knows the things we are going to learn from it, but should be very exciting to see. I understand they are already designing it replacement tho...lol.


As big and crazy and expensive as that thing is, we blow that kind of dough every month in Iraq. Sheeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitttttt!
It might just be the mass density that's key. Squish enough mass together, closely enough, and it would form a (tiny) gravitational field, capable of trapping light. But it's still a tiny amount of mass, and thus not dangerous.