• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."
  • Community Question: What makes a good motherboard?

Work hours cut due to ObamaCare

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Lithium381

Lifer
May 12, 2001
12,464
2
0
Sure thing Atres21 . . .some businesses are running THIN margins to begin with . . this is just going to push them into the red and that's game over for their business
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
Sure thing Atres21 . . .some businesses are running THIN margins to begin with . . this is just going to push them into the red and that's game over for their business
You make a good point, a business that already does not provide benefits, runs on margins so thin they can't afford the cost of healthcare for their employees.

So they have everyone part time to avoid the legality of providing benefits.

This is not a new concept businesses have been doing it for years.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,599
5
0
You make a good point, a business that already does not provide benefits, runs on margins so thin they can't afford the cost of healthcare for their employees.

So they have everyone part time to avoid the legality of providing benefits.

This is not a new concept businesses have been doing it for years.
And here they are cutting hours because of government mandated costs.

Who suffers; the employee!

Or does no one suffers in the end game because the employment figures get artificially increased. :p
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,877
4,209
126
This obvious solution is more mandates.

  1. Cover part time employees.
  2. Price controls.
  3. ???
  4. Profit!
Sí, se puede!
It's more like this:

The True Believers cried unto the Prophets "We know our King in Washington listens to the supplications of the oppressed. Beseech him therefore to intercede for us that the Flying Spaghetti Monster of Health Care will deliver us from this great evil. And so the Prophets in their Houses and the King deliberated and announced KingCare and the True Believers cried "Blessed be the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the King and Prophets which serve his Greatness."

But alas, not all were True Believers in the land. Those who were subject to the Law as enacted by the King and the Prophets voiced concerns. Some spoke against it as unwise. The True Believers cried "Heretics! Unbelievers! Make obeisance unto our Lords who have only all our best interests at heart lest ye be cast out!" Yet there were grumblings against the wisdom of the King and Prophets, and so the Prophets took the Work of the Humble Servants of the Great One to their brothers in the Sanhedrin of Washington and said "Oh wise judges, this is what the One of Healthcare has given to the people through His King and Prophets, yet the foolish among the people contest its wisdom, indeed the rights of Us who follow the Word. We ask therefore that you consider our words and see if they follow the Holy Writ. Yet even in the Sanhedrin there was division no doubt caused by the Evil One. But the wisdom of the One Who Knows All prevailed and the leader of the Sanhedrin himself pronounced that the Work passed the test of the Holy Writ.

One would have thought that this would have been the happy ending of our tale, but yet the Evil One had not yet finished. Instead of embracing the Work, some acted in a way which was heresy. Those who would cast down the idols of our Prophets on their high pedestals, who would not kneel to to the Followers of the King and Prophets who serve the Flying Spaghetti Monster of Healthcare rebelled and said "This will cause our ruin, therefore we shall dismiss our servants and make the others work harder."

As most of the people were servants they were sore afraid at these words and the True Believers said "be long suffering and have faith that our Masters in Washington will yet prevail". But the people grumbled and said, "We do not understand. We were promised affordable healthcare yet it costs us even more dearly". To which the True Believers said "It is the work of the Evil One who overshadows your hearts with doubt. This is his work. He keeps the Words of the Prophets from filling their hearts with joy and places concerns of earthly matters in its stead".

But still there was doubt among the people. Again the True Believers implored the Masters in Washington "Forgive them because the know not what they do. We know you serve the Flying Spaghetti Monster in Washington. Make intercession on the behalf of the people for an answer. You are all-wise."

But the Masters in Washington did not answer their requests, and fell silent as if they had not even noticed. The people began to discern that things were not happening as foretold.

Then the unthinkable happened. They began to hear that perhaps the Masters in DC did not speak to the Flying Spaghetti Monster of Health Care. Indeed perhaps the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist! Unthinkable blasphemy! The True Believers could scarcely believe their words. It was the Evil One who was responsible for the failures of the Wisdom. It was the people who doubted. The Masters and themselves could hardly be held accountable and so we come to the now.

What will happen? The people continue to grumble. The True Believers have two choices, which is to admit they were mistaken and listen to the doubters, but that is heresy in itself. The other is to cling fast to the certainty of their faith. They were right to believe but they did not trust the Masters enough. They can implore them to take all matters into their hands guided by the Flying Spaghetti Monster of Health Care, in which all hope lives. If the people bow low and accept complete mastery over their lives in this regard then all will be well.

It is merely a matter of faith.
 
Last edited:

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
31,484
10,246
146
I don't know, but one thing's for sure.

If business owners cut employees because of additional overhead of Obamacare, it can only be because they're greedy bastards.
Doesn't have to. Example:

I live in Massachusetts, I used to frequent a coffee shop that wasn't a chain. It was called Blue Moon coffee. Dude roasted his own beans, was there all the time, had a handful of part time employees (who included my brother for a bit), homemade foods/desserts, all at a competitive price.

In 2006, there was healthcare reform in MA(aka RomneyCare). For the owner to provide insurance, he would basically make a few bucks a month. Closed up shop pretty quick.

This sucked. I still miss it. Good coffee, good food, good atmosphere, and helping to support local merchant who wasn't "greedy" per se, but didn't want to go home empty handed after putting in 70+ hours at his local business.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,155
9
81
You make a good point, a business that already does not provide benefits, runs on margins so thin they can't afford the cost of healthcare for their employees.

So they have everyone part time to avoid the legality of providing benefits.

This is not a new concept businesses have been doing it for years.
yeap. its nothing new. i remember friend's in high school complaining because they would get 32 hours a week. This was at Walmart, target, Fast food (all of them) etc. They would get 31.5 hours then sent home.

being under you were still considered part time. then you didn't get any benefits (well some but not insurance).


this ain't new and is going to increase with the cost of having full time employees. small places aren't going to keep them when it will be cheaper to just have more part timers.

or close up like ch33swiz showed.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
And here they are cutting hours because of government mandated costs.

Who suffers; the employee!

Or does no one suffers in the end game because the employment figures get artificially increased. :p
In most cases there are other mandated government costs. Workmans comp, ,payroll taxes, permits etc.

Don't get me wrong I think the ACA is a pile of rubbish. I just think its impact is being overstated for political purposes.

Also a single payer system would eliminate all of these issues.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
yeap. its nothing new. i remember friend's in high school complaining because they would get 32 hours a week. This was at Walmart, target, Fast food (all of them) etc. They would get 31.5 hours then sent home.

being under you were still considered part time. then you didn't get any benefits (well some but not insurance).


this ain't new and is going to increase with the cost of having full time employees. small places aren't going to keep them when it will be cheaper to just have more part timers.

or close up like ch33swiz showed.
Thing is when Walmart and fast food chains are doing it, it's from a pure profit motive perspective in most cases, they do it because they can not because they need to to stay in business.

That's why I think in the end the ACA is a good thing, it will be such a cluster fuck the only viable way out if it will be the single payer system we should have had instead.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,877
4,209
126
Also a single payer system would eliminate all of these issues.
No it would not, not in the US as it exists today. The Masters and Prophets in DC can't get this simple thing right, could not anticipate the consequences, refused to do the necessary research and show no signs of being willing to do so. There is no project too big or small that is not secondary to political concerns here and by giving these people complete irrevocable control it will fix everything? That's True Believer thinking.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
60,771
13,564
136
Yep, put corporatist hacks in charge of healthcare reform and this is what you get. Both free marketers and socialists were locked out of the debate when the conservative Dem Congress sat down and wote this dog of a law. So we got the worst possible outcome - mandated private insurance.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,877
4,209
126
Yep, put corporatist hacks in charge of healthcare reform and this is what you get. Both free marketers and socialists were locked out of the debate when the conservative Dem Congress sat down and wote this dog of a law. So we got the worst possible outcome - mandated private insurance.
No it could be worse. You could put politicians in charge of everything without understanding one percent of what's going on. You can destroy the infrastructure like outsourcing did to the American economy and claim victory when people get jobs flipping burgers. That is where we're heading. This is about power and control, not health care and never was.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
No it would not, not in the US as it exists today. The Masters and Prophets in DC can't get this simple thing right, could not anticipate the consequences, refused to do the necessary research and show no signs of being willing to do so. There is no project too big or small that is not secondary to political concerns here and by giving these people complete irrevocable control it will fix everything? That's True Believer thinking.
I do think when is comes to running national programs the government does an ok job, with lots of room for improvement. They run the largest military in the world, social security, Medicare etc.

While none are without some real serious faults, I don't but the meme the government will just run it horribly.

One thing us obvious, the existing system is bad, ACA is bad.

And I'll state for the record the entire idea of a pure profit based healthcare system is terrible.

Why can't we have a single payer system paid for with taxes, and give you the ability to opt out and keep your private insurance?
 

quest55720

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2004
1,344
0
0
I do think when is comes to running national programs the government does an ok job, with lots of room for improvement. They run the largest military in the world, social security, Medicare etc.

While none are without some real serious faults, I don't but the meme the government will just run it horribly.

One thing us obvious, the existing system is bad, ACA is bad.

And I'll state for the record the entire idea of a pure profit based healthcare system is terrible.

Why can't we have a single payer system paid for with taxes, and give you the ability to opt out and keep your private insurance?
2 very simple reasons why we can not.

First who is going to pay for it? 47% don't pay federal income taxes right now and this country is running trillion dollar deficits. Where is this trillion dollars going to come from to pay for it? The middle class who are getting raped in taxes right now? My employer would be laughing to the bank as they get to pocket 10k and my family gets a nice 10k tax bill. It would be basically a 20% pay cut for the whole middle class.

That and all it would take is 1 liberal judge in California to say illegals are entitled to it just like they did schools. Everyone in south America with cancer or any serious illness would cross the border and bankrupt the country. Drop 10 million illegals on any country with single payer and see how long it would last.
 

tw1164

Diamond Member
Dec 8, 1999
3,995
0
76
Darden was one of roughly 1,200 companies that were granted waivers that exempted them from having to comply with the new law until 2014.
Why would they announce this now?
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
2 very simple reasons why we can not.

First who is going to pay for it? 47% don't pay federal income taxes right now and this country is running trillion dollar deficits. Where is this trillion dollars going to come from to pay for it? The middle class who are getting raped in taxes right now? My employer would be laughing to the bank as they get to pocket 10k and my family gets a nice 10k tax bill. It would be basically a 20% pay cut for the whole middle class.

That and all it would take is 1 liberal judge in California to say illegals are entitled to it just like they did schools. Everyone in south America with cancer or any serious illness would cross the border and bankrupt the country. Drop 10 million illegals on any country with single payer and see how long it would last.
You make some good points, however I don't think they are points that couldn't be addressed.

Simply expand Medicare to cover everyone, tax it appropriately, poor people already get free healthcare.
Eliminate those programs

You could do something similar to social security have part tax for employee part by employer. There are many ways you could do it effectively. We simply lack the political will and competing Lobby dollars
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,599
5
0
Darden was one of roughly 1,200 companies that were granted waivers that exempted them from having to comply with the new law until 2014.
Why would they announce this now?
1) Elections
2) Companies normally lock in the benefit supplier(s) a year in advance. this allows time to get the paperwork flow coordinated if changing providers.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,877
4,209
126
I do think when is comes to running national programs the government does an ok job, with lots of room for improvement. They run the largest military in the world, social security, Medicare etc.

While none are without some real serious faults, I don't but the meme the government will just run it horribly.

One thing us obvious, the existing system is bad, ACA is bad.

And I'll state for the record the entire idea of a pure profit based healthcare system is terrible.

Why can't we have a single payer system paid for with taxes, and give you the ability to opt out and keep your private insurance?

The systems you cite are amenable to top down regulatory control. Medicine is not. There are conflicting and complex concerns with every situation. There is no algorithmic regulatory approach which is what you will wind up with.

What system, what "book" of regulations will substitute for medical judgement? You might reply that that isn't what single payer is, but I'll state categorically that you are wrong. Cost containment and political influence will be the priorities. When the government through medicare badgers providers because they aren't giving a medication indicated to someone in a geriatric facility that's good? Why should providers have to spend hours again and again saying the the medication isn't working or is being harmful time and again? What bureaucrat is qualified to make that call? That's what happens now. Regulations trump all other concerns by pain of punishment. If the patient suffers or dies the regulations must be followed. This isn't a case where a doc might subvert insurance rules to help a patient and perhaps get his payment taken back, this would be committing a crime. That's how it works and if you think politicians can keep their hands out of actual practice you'll have a hard time finding where they won't "help".

That little biblical language piece is not a dig, it's the mentality of those who do not understand the disconnect between politics and practice. There won't be funding without control, and control without political aim, and punishment for those who follow conscience over regulation. This isn't France or some other country where the health care system evolved over time with their society and government. This is a take over.

You want that? Fine. Here's my terms (not that anyone will pay attention)

First, remove politicians from formulating health care policy. Have a panel of experts nominated by professional organizations who are noted for their character and capability. That would be physicians, pharmacists, nurses, all kinds of practitioners who have high standards and have proven effective. Do the same with consumer advocates. Choose those who know the system, who have demonstrated a concern for the patient. Get actuaries who understand real world costs. Technical experts in information technology. People who are able to integrate complex systems, and throw in the kitchen sink while we are at it. Give it the imperative we did to the Manhattan Project and the authority to examine government experts and question the bureaucrats and private sector providers and insurance representatives. Give them teeth.

Task them with these goals.

First- Determine the true state of American health care. Who has insurance, who does not and why. Do not let politicians interfere at all in this process.

Second- Find out what the expectations of the public are. What do people believe vs reality. What is the level of understand in the public, private and government segments. Do not let politicians interfere at all in this process.

Third- Examine and question the status quo. What is right and wrong with what we have. Dig down in the levels of our society to determine why that is. What are reasonable expectations given real world resources and Constitutional constraints. Do not let politicians interfere at all in this process.

Fourth- Determine what provides the best care outcomes and what costs are associated with that. People here cry about costs in a vacuum of ignorance. I don't care about Europe. I care about care here. What can be done to contain costs while giving quality care? Is there a regulatory issue so government is hurting this? Are the procedures redundant? Are we disseminating knowledge as effectively as possible? What can be done to provide those who make decisions the knowledge of a patients history and treatment in a timely and complete way? What about legal concerns? Does fear of lawsuits cause unnecessary testing? Is there corruption at any level influencing this? What can be done? What are the options here? How do we do this where there are regulatory conflicts or matters of conflicting best interests? Do not let politicians interfere at all in this process.

Fifth- How does this all fit together? What are our best options for reform and financing? How do we reconcile this with Constitutional rights of all involved? What will practioners have to change? The government? What about the people themselves? How do we adjust these considerations for best outcome? What will the real costs be and how are they distributed? What are the limitations on what one ought to expect? What will it cost for end of life treatment? Who decides who will pull the plug? What are the limits? How will ethical concerns be handled? Do not let politicians interfere at all in this process.

Sixth- Get everyone together and hammer out language with legislative experts to minimize the wiggle room for Congress in these documents, and to play a series of "what if's" to minimize the law of unintended consequences. Do not let politicians interfere al all with this process.

Seventh- Give all this material to Congress and make it public at the same time. Do not give DC advance notice to prepare to dismember the effort for partisan purposes. Provide a spokesman or a group tasked to give answers to the public, the government and private concerns. Do not let the politicians interfere at all with this process.

Eight- Give this panel, commission, whatever you call it, the ability to question publicly what is being done by Congress. Make sure there are no "closed door" sessions. This whole process must be done in an open way and neither Republican or Democratic parties hack away unseen.

At this point the politicians can interfere with the best possible policies or approve them. If the latter happens let me know and I'll back single payer/UHC whatever you call it.

This isn't rocket science. No, it's far far more complex. I am the Evil One. I do not believe in the True Faith.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,820
1,123
126
Hmm... worked as a server for over 10 years and was never offered 40 hours a week/benefits. Every restaurant I ever worked always made sure the servers were always a below FT benefits position job. Some of the more senior chefs and the floor and GM's were the only ones getting benefits. Even the great Chuck Muer himself wouldn't pay his servers benefits. Hmm... nothing has gone into effect yet until 2014 and have waivers yet this is an issue now. Yep... this is because of Obamacare...
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,877
4,209
126
Hmm... worked as a server for over 10 years and was never offered 40 hours a week/benefits. Every restaurant I ever worked always made sure the servers were always a below FT benefits position job. Some of the more senior chefs and the floor and GM's were the only ones getting benefits. Even the great Chuck Muer himself wouldn't pay his servers benefits. Hmm... nothing has gone into effect yet until 2014 and have waivers yet this is an issue now. Yep... this is because of Obamacare...
Yep this is. If you think it was bad before you have seen nothing yet. Defend the King!
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,294
1
76
The costs of providing plans were to expensive.

Any idea what the costs of a basic health plan that you may have costs your employer?
So, who paid for their healthcare before Obamacare ?

hint- everyone.

Why should everyone subsidize the Olive Garden or its employees ?
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,833
1
0
You make a good point, a business that already does not provide benefits, runs on margins so thin they can't afford the cost of healthcare for their employees.

So they have everyone part time to avoid the legality of providing benefits.

This is not a new concept businesses have been doing it for years.

So how do you propose we cover these people who work for employers with such thin margins? How about public health insurance? Oh but that's socialism and we can't have that.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,820
1,123
126
Yep this is. If you think it was bad before you have seen nothing yet. Defend the King!
Yep, keep reading... restaurant workers seldom got FT benefits when I was working (which was the norm) and by the looks of it a decade later still really didn't and still really won't. Yep, its' Obamacare.

Fuck Obama. That better? Are we clear now that my disdain for Obama is only eclipsed by my disdain for the modern day GOP... Both parties had a chance to hammer out a decent HC act and they didn't. Single Payer...
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
0
If the rest of the civilized world can provide health care to everyone, why can't we? Are they just better than us? Are their businessmen smarter? More successful? What?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,877
4,209
126
So how do you propose we cover these people who work for employers with such thin margins? How about public health insurance? Oh but that's socialism and we can't have that.
Pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster of Healthcare that we may all believe in the wisdom and the good will of the King and the Prophets.

You might as well, because what you get out of a faith based organization would probably be better than what you get from DC.

You miss the fact that public health insurance does not spring out of the ground. Someone makes it and if you can demonstrate consistent quality of difficult to understand subjects with well crafted legislation as a result, I'd love to see it. Remember this is an order of magnitude more difficult a task that they have faced before. Your faith in your masters is noted, but hardly given to realistic accomplishments in the past. This ain't Medicare part D.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,877
4,209
126
If the rest of the civilized world can provide health care to everyone, why can't we? Are they just better than us? Are their businessmen smarter? More successful? What?
Because their health care system evolved over time to match their society and their political leaders are subject to greater accountability than ours. One Party to Rule Them All is the result of our elections with the minority throwing a wrench in whatever they can.

Why can't we? Look over my list of things I believe ought to be done and tell my why that doesn't happen.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY