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Wonder what Chinese military is saying....

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Originally posted by: Jadow
the chinese don't have a single aircraft carrier.
The Chinese also don't have a blue water navy. They couldn't sail a military force across the ocean if they wanted to. They have a single nuclear sub that has its own problems and is quite old, it never leaves the coastal waters around China.

China has tossed around the idea of building some older Russian carriers, but the price tag was quite high. They tried building one, but ended up converting it into a large cargo ship.

: ) Hopper
 
As to invading china 😛, Iraq is about the size of california. China is the size of the US, if not a bit larger. Concentration of forces ring a bell? Maybe its possible, in a PURE militarilistic sence.
 
Originally posted by: LH
The only way we would ever fight China would be a world war. We would win, but there would be possibly be 100million dead in China if not more.
We would not use nuclear weapons against China so long as they don't use them against us. Even then, we wouldn't nuke their major cities, no point to killing all those civilians.

We wouldnt have to step foot in China.
You can't invade a nation without setting foot in it.

Our air and sea power could blast them into submission eventually.
The United States of America does not carpet bomb civilians anymore. We would get a much quicker end to the war by taking out China's military forces and taking the major cities. Everything else could be left alone.

: ) Hopper
 
Originally posted by: Gr1mL0cK
It matters little when you have nukes.
And thus we have the crux of the matter...

Now... if we can deploy a really useful missile defense system, we might be able to override their ICBMs, and maybe even their medium range missiles. The major issue then becomes the short range stuff.

Is it doable? Probably... Is it worth it? No, and I can't see why we would.

: ) Hopper
 
Originally posted by: rufruf44
As China economy progress, hopefully it'll break apart like Russia. As people enjoy higher standard of living, they'll realize comunism simply doesn't work 🙂
That, in the long run, is what I expect to happen as well.

: ) Hopper
 
30 to 1? How so? They have about 3 million people in their regular Army, they have about 2 million more in their reserves.

That is, at best, a 10 to 1 ratio against an invasion of 1/2 to 2/3 of our standard land forces.

As for "kicking our ass" on the ground, I refer you back to my prior statements. What are those millions going to do, spit on us? Iraq in 1991 had several times as many tanks as we did, yet we destroyed over 1,500 armored vehicles, including at least 800 tanks, with only a half dozen losses of our own.

Since then, our tanks have gotten better, everyone else has stayed about the same.

Quoting the CIA world factbook:

China
Military manpower - availability:
males age 15-49: 370,087,489 (2002 est.)

United States
Military manpower - availability:
males age 15-49: 73,597,731 (2002 est.)

370/70 = 5.28:1 Advantage

I would have prefered to use actual fit for service numbers but the CIA does not publish those for the US. I personally feel that 73million is much much larger than it would be in reality. Regardless, to fight to a draw every US serviceman would have to kill 5.2 Chinese servicemen. This analysis also fails to take into account that up to 50% of US forces would be in supply and support roles where the Chinese would be able to utilize their female population to outfit for supply and support. This combined with a real service level of support and the US would easily be facing 30:1 outnumbering in the field in a ground war with China. It's foolish to even suggest that we could beat them in sustained land combat.

That was a long time ago, back when our tanks were no better than what China could field.

That is like trying to compare the British fight with Romel in North Africa in WWII to the Gulf War. Very different world today...

China did not field ANY armor in the Korean war. They lacked an airforce and had limited artillery and heavy weapons. Most troops were marched and they had a few ten thousand cavalry (that still road horses). In all effects China developmentally was at WWI level of millitary advancement (with better guns and a few heavy artillery pieces). They still fought us to a draw. Armor can be powerfull, but against infantry armor is almost useless. Never never underestimate the guys with guns on foot armed with 2lbs of grey matter.
 
Originally posted by: rahvin
Quoting the CIA world factbook:

China
Military manpower - availability:
males age 15-49: 370,087,489 (2002 est.)

United States
Military manpower - availability:
males age 15-49: 73,597,731 (2002 est.)

370/70 = 5.28:1 Advantage
That is assuming that China would arm all 370 Million of those people and put them in the Army.

That is no more likely to happen than is America to put all 73 Million of those people into the military.

Your thought process is flawed from the start on that point.

Regardless, to fight to a draw every US serviceman would have to kill 5.2 Chinese servicemen.
Based on your logic, we would have to kill 370 million people to win the war.

That is absurd, only nuclear weapons could kill that many Chinese people. We could carpet bomb for years and not kill 370 Million people.

This analysis also fails to take into account that up to 50% of US forces would be in supply and support roles where the Chinese would be able to utilize their female population to outfit for supply and support. This combined with a real service level of support and the US would easily be facing 30:1 outnumbering in the field in a ground war with China. It's foolish to even suggest that we could beat them in sustained land combat.
I don't even know where to start with all the flaws in your thought process.

Let me just say this... Your thinking about military conflict is decades out of date and does not reflect modern military reality.

China can quickly field about 5 million soldiers, the United States can quickly field about 1 million soldiers. Our 1 million soliders are many times more effective than China's are. We would destroy a lot of military equipment long before we had to deal with a stand up frontal battle, and when that came, our tanks would destroy their tanks at about a 100 to 1 ratio. So we might lose 100 tanks in the whole war to their tanks, and maybe another 100 tanks to other various weapons.

We have over 2,800 Main Battle Tanks, so we'd lose perhaps 7% of our tank force in the war.

China did not field ANY armor in the Korean war.
Sure they did, they used equipment bought from Russia as well as North Korean equipment... But they didn't use very much of it, that is true.

What happened is a million Chinese soldiers crossed the border when we were not prepared, and did not have the forces in place to do anything about it. At the time, our tanks were fragile and could not withstand sustained attack from handheld anti-tank weapons and mortors. Today, our tanks can withstand anything a soldier can carry, and can withstand point-blank shots from other tanks.

Only missiles and bombs from aircraft can destroy the M1A2 Abrams tank.

They lacked an airforce and had limited artillery and heavy weapons.
One we regrouped and recovered, we held them at the original border, they could not make any further headway, despite huge numbers of reinforcements. Once we held them, we bombed them into submission and they sued for peace.

They still fought us to a draw. Armor can be powerfull, but against infantry armor is almost useless.
That was true then, it isn't true now. That is the gap the M2 Bradley filled... The 25mm auto cannon on the front filled the gap between the .50 cal machine guns and the big 120mm main gun on the M1A1 Abrams. Those two armored vehicles working together means that no longer do American soldiers have to dismount to fight. We can take on large numbers of human wave attackers using the weapons mounted on those vehicles.

Never never underestimate the guys with guns on foot armed with 2lbs of grey matter.
Again, back then guys on foot could destroy a tank if they could get close enough and use anti-tank weapons. Today, nothing a man can physically pickup will destroy a M1A2 Abrams tank. The armor has simply gotten too good.

: ) Hopper
 
Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
Originally posted by: tec699
That might be possible. Esecially since most of there population lives in huts. But I think you might underestimate there military. They are still a million (+) strong and we would face stiff resistance if we tried to invade. And thats after we bombed them for weeks on end. There is no way in hell we could keep US casualities at a minimum if we invaded China. We would still lose a ton of soliders.

Thats my opinion...
Why?

What are they going to do, spit at our tanks? The T-55/T-62/T-72 tanks they have cannot destroy our tanks, even at point-blank-range. Our tanks can destroy theirs from miles away.

Our airplanes can shoot theirs down without concern for losses in return. Our stealth bombers can destroy their SAMs and AAA before they can hit anything.

Our Air Force would blast anything that was stupid enough to move, take out their Air Force, destroy their anti-air abilities. Our ground forces would ride into combat protected with armor able to withstand any direct fire their forces can dish out.

Would we lose some guys? Yes, of course. You can't cover for everything... But if we sent 2/3 of our military, or about 600,000 soldiers total, we probably wouldn't lose more than 10,000 over the course of the war, and probably not even half of that.

Considering China has millions of soldiers as you point out, that says a lot about our military abilities.

It is those darn pesky 400 nuclear weapons that prevent any of that from being possible.

: ) Hopper

Remember Vietnam ?

65,000 Dead .. and thousands more STILL missing. US LOST. Simple facts.

China will be 100 times more devastating if US tries a land invasion.


Air power, PLAF has the maximum number of aircraft in any airforce but most of them ( 89% ) late J7's or Mig 21/ varities. They will be a threat no matter how bad their avionics or missles delivery systems are.

However if history has shown, China is no biggie. Mongols took China specially Beijing after a campagin that resulted in 30 million chinese lives. Chinese are very aggressive and will keep the honour fo theri nation, at any cost.

Recently, small nation like Vitenam has defeated China and resisted Chinese since last 1800 years .. and the Indo-china war against India in 1962 caused 3 times more Chinese casulalities than the smaller unprepared inferiorly armed and starving indian sides .. even when they WON that war. Chines dead = 5,500 Indian dead = 1800. And China on the verge of taking Tibet, suddenlt stopped and declared ceasefire .. morons coudl have marched starigh into Calcultta the bigegst city in India to the east and captured that port. Oh well ..













 
I think you don't understand that any conflict with China would cost far too many American lives. Taking over China would not be as easy as you say it is. You cannot bomb a country like China into sumbission and then invade. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. Wars cost lives.

Jason
 
Originally posted by: tec699
General Custer severly underestimated the Sioux. Well we know what happened, don't we. 🙂
Yes, and Generals have done stupid stuff like that thoughout history...

Custer left his Gattling Guns behind at the fort, figuring they would slow him down. If he had brought them with him, they would have cut the Indians to pieces.

What the Indians did was sent a few guys forward to get Custer's men to fire their rifles (muskets). While Custer's men reloaded, the Indians attacked in force. The reload time was too long to recover, and they were killed. With a few Gattling Guns, when the main force of Indians attacked, they would have been cut down.

: ) Hopper
 
I think you are overconfident about American military prowess. This is hard for me to say, being that I myself am fairly assured the US military is A-grade. However you seem to think that becuase we have GPS and fancy pantsy bombs and missiles we could invade the most populous country on earth without causing "significant US casualties". I'm sorry but I don't think many would agree with you.

Jason
 
Terrain Iraq is an easy target, for there are few places to hide in the desert. Korea/China OTOH is a completely different scenario. In many places armor would be useless or easily hidden from potential Air Strikes, Infantry would also be easily hidden able to ambush Armor, and the use of Infantry would be much more important. Now if China met the US in the open desert of Iraq, yea they'd get routed.
 
Originally posted by: MinorityReport
Remember Vietnam ?
Yes, and people used that same arguement before the Gulf War and the same argument before the current war...

Vietnam was 30 years ago using very different equipment and tactics. The primary reason we lost the Vietnam war was simple, we never really tried to win.

We should have leveled Hanoi from the very first night of the war. That we didn't, and wasted 10 years, shows all that went wrong.

65,000 Dead .. and thousands more STILL missing. US LOST. Simple facts.
We never tried to win...

China will be 100 times more devastating if US tries a land invasion.
Not if we go to actually win, it wouldn't...

Air power, PLAF has the maximum number of aircraft in any airforce but most of them ( 89% ) late J7's or Mig 21/ varities. They will be a threat no matter how bad their avionics or missles delivery systems are.
Yes, and Iraq had one of the best Air Forces in the Middle East that oil money could buy, including Mig-29s and other advanced Russian planes...

Most were promply shot down, the rest were either destroyed on the ground or fled to Iran.

Those J7/Mig-21 fighters in the Chinese Air Force wouldn't stand a chance against American F-15 or F-22 fighters. It would simply be a turkey shoot, and a very quick one at that.

However if history has shown, China is no biggie. Mongols took China specially Beijing after a campagin that resulted in 30 million chinese lives. Chinese are very aggressive and will keep the honour fo theri nation, at any cost.
Old war, old world, different era...

The problem is, no matter how willing, you cannot kill an enemy that you either can't see, or can't reach.

Our bombers have steath, China can't shoot something down it can't see.

Our tanks have guns that outrange the Chinese and armor that can't be penetrated by the Chinese.

The spirit may be willing, but without the tools of modern war, it isn't enough.

The development of advanced lightweight composite materials, computer technology, etc. has completely and forever changed the face of war. As long as we fight to win and send everything required to win from day one, and the enemy doesn't use nuclear weapons, our current military forces cannot be stopped by anyone outside of Europe or Russia.

: ) Hopper
 
The problem is, no matter how willing, you cannot kill an enemy that you either can't see, or can't reach

You said it yourself. A Chinese military that was preparing to defend its country would be hard to see and hard to reach. China is not one big desert like Iraq.

Jason
 
Originally posted by: jjessico
I think you don't understand that any conflict with China would cost far too many American lives.
How many? 1,000? 10,000? 100,000?

If you leave nukes out of it, we could well take several thousand dead and wounded, perhaps even ten to twenty thousand. Probably not, assuming we use our advantages and attack on our terms.

Taking over China would not be as easy as you say it is. You cannot bomb a country like China into sumbission and then invade.
Never said to bomb them into submission... Just destroy their ability to make war, knock out their weapons and other equipment, take the major cities, force a surrender from their leaders.

China requires a military to defend the nation, take out the military and the leadership can either surrender, or be killed. Then you put new leaders in place. The civilians just keep going along as they always have.

I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. Wars cost lives.
I'm sorry, but your thinking is out of date. Wars do cost lives, but not as many as they used to, and more and more those lives lost are quite onesided.

In the Gulf War, we lost a few hundred soldiers, a number so low it statically doesn't matter. More US soldiers died in the 6 weeks before the war due to car accidents and health problems than died in combat.

So far, 14 soldiers have died in this war. Of those 14, the 12 in the helicopter died due to mechanical problems and that happens all the time during training.

So yes, techincaly wars do cost lives, but not very many anymore...

: ) Hopper
 
Vietnam =/= Invading China
Gulf War =/= Invading China

In the case of Vietnam the weapons were different, the times were different, and there are some doubts as to the USA's motives.

In the case of the Gulf War (versions 1 and 2) China does not, territorialy, compare to Iraq.

However, if you combine both wars you can begin to divine a situation which could relate to an invasion of China.

We shall sample from Vietnam first. Shitty terrain to fight armoured battles on, lots of mountains and trees to hide troops and AA in, indigenous people who are comitted to their country.

Sampling from Gulf War 1+2 we have advanced former soviet weaponry, which despite most american's beliefs, are still viable. You also have chemical and biological agents(less likely to be used due to fighting on your own turf with intent to win).

So combining the good home-army advantage of terrain with moderately advanced weapons you create a battlefield scenario that is no easy despite the number of bombs you see blow up buildings on TV.

Jason
 

US military won't even dare to get too close to China's water.

China has 150 of these, now let's see, US has what? only 12 carriers?

Now I really want to see some massacres.


Russian SS-N-22 ("Sunburn") --- "the most lethal anti-ship missile in the world" .NATO codenamed "Sunburn." The Sunburn was developed by Russia to destroy U.S. aircraft carriers and Aegis-class warships. The missile has a range of over 65 nautical miles and can be mounted on ships or on land-based mobile platforms.



Nine feet above the water, traveling at twice the speed of sound, with a 200-kiloton nuclear warhead in its nose, the radar-guided Russian-built Sunburn missile can weave its way through smaller ships until it reaches its real target: a U.S. aircraft carrier. At the last instant, it would pop up from the ocean¡¦s surface, smash into the side of the carrier and set off a nuclear explosion six-times as powerful as Hiroshima.

"The U.S. Navy has nothing that can stop it," Prof. June Teuffel told the House Armed Services Committee last July.


NAME
Russian Designation: 3M-80E Moskit
NATO Codename: SS-N-22 Sunburn

LAUNCH PLATFORM: Sovremenny Class destroyer

PROGRAMME

China obtained 3M-80E 'Moskit' anti-ship cruise missile together with a deal of purchasing two Russian-built Project 956 (Sovremenny Class) missile destroyers (DDGs) in 2000 and 2001. The PLA Navy have reportedly received over 100 'Moskit' missiles from Russia, and have already test fired the missile in 2001.

DESIGN FEATURES

The SS-N-22 anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM), code named 'Sunburn' by NATO and known in Russia as the 3M-80E 'Moskit' missile, is considered by many observers to be the most threatening ship-launched ASCM in service today. Developed by Russia¡¦s Raduga missile design bureau, the SS-N-22 is a supersonic (Mach 2.1), low-flying (7 to 20 m, or about 23 to 66 feet, above the surface of the water) ASCM that performs a terminal ¡¥S¡¦ manoeuvre (pulling up to 15G) to evade close-in defenses at a distance of 5 to 7 km (about 2.7 to 3.8 nautical miles) to its target.


3M-80 (SS-N-22) supersonic anti-ship missile


Even with a conventional warhead, 'Moskit' missile is large enough so that one hit from a single missile could seriously damage or possibly even sink a U.S. Navy major surface combatant, a hit from one or possibly even a few conventionally-armed 'Moskit' missiles might not be enough to halt flight operations on a U.S. Navy aircraft carrier because of the carrier¡¦s much larger size and its high degree of compartmentalization. A nuclear-armed 'Moskit', however, could easily destroy a U.S. Navy aircraft carrier (and any other nearby ships), even if the warhead detonates at some distance from the carrier.

The SS-N-22's designers have stated openly that the missile was developed to defeat the U.S. Navy¡¦s Aegis air-defense system. The SS-N-22 entered service in 1984 ¡V- a year after the U.S. Navy¡¦s first Aegis-equipped ship, the Ticonderoga (CG-47), entered service. The U.S. Navy concerned over effectiveness of the Aegis system centered to a large degree on the ability of the system to defeat the SS-N-22, particularly since the Navy at that time did not have an air-defense target missile that could fully replicate the supersonic, low-flying flight profile of the SS-N-22. The U.S. Navy¡¦s attempts over the years to develop such a target missile indigenously have met with some failures, and Navy actions in recent years to acquire appropriate target missiles have, ironically, included proposed or actual purchases of SS-N-22s themselves as well as modified air-launched Russian ASCMs known as MA-31s.

Despite various progress the U.S. Navy has made in improving its surface ships' air defence capability against 'Moskit' missile, the missile probably remains a challenging weapon for the Aegis system. A 1993 article about U.S. attempts to purchase some of the missiles for use as targets quoted an unnamed Navy official as saying, ¡§This missile is a source of great concern to the Navy¡¨ because of its speed. Ships equipped with an Aegis system (or some other rapid-reaction air-defense system) might not be able to guarantee 100% effectiveness in defending themselves against the missile, and ships not so equipped would be highly vulnerable to the missile unless they operate under the protective cover of an Aegis-equipped ship.
 
Originally posted by: jjessico
I think you are overconfident about American military prowess.
Now that is a statement that has merit... It is something we can talk about...

American military power is indeed strong, but of course like anything else, it isn't unlimited. What is then open to question is, "Just what can the US Military actually do?"

I say it can do more than you say it can do, I suppose that is our basic disagreement.

The current war underway now, as well as the war fought 12 years ago, would tend to suggest that I'm right. The mess in Somolia in 1993 would ALSO tend to suggest I'm right. Had we sent in Abrams and Bradley tanks instead of Hummers and 5-ton trucks, we would have walked in and out of there without the problems we had.

If you are going to attack, hit them with everything. If you go to a battle in Hummers and trucks, you're not taking your real power with you. Any military can drive to battle in trucks, big deal...

This is hard for me to say, being that I myself am fairly assured the US military is A-grade. However you seem to think that becuase we have GPS and fancy pantsy bombs and missiles we could invade the most populous country on earth without causing "significant US casualties".
GPS is perhaps third in importance in military developments behind nuclear weapons and the computer.

As for those fancy bombs and missiles, they are allowing us to destroy the targets that count without flattening the whole city of Bagdad.

In WWII, we carpet bombed whole cities, and still didn't hit the targets that really counted. We found out after the war that the bombing was largely useless from a target destruction point of view, but it did cause havoc on the ground and diverted large numbers of forces that otherwise could have been used to attack the Soviet Union.

: ) Hopper
 
Last time I checked, China is what, 4000 year old nation? Now, we are a new kid on the block, and are doing very well for ourselves, but in the long scheme of things, our 50 years of being a superpower are barely a blip on their historical radar. Until we can put down that sort of longevity, there is no need to be cocky. They have seen so many great enemies and rivals come and go, and all they did is outwait, outbreed, and outlive them. I know in the states it's all about what's happening now, but in other parts of the world people are much more aware of history, and their place in history, and that they don't necessarily need to exert themselves trying to build some big empire or be the first in everything, but proceed slowly but surely at their own pace.
That said, I think there might be a conflict between Russia and China over Siberia in this century. China has 100 Milion people in the north, and Russia has maybe 5 Million in Siberia along the Chinese border. Russia was lucky to get some serious nukes and rockets before it was too late.
 
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Last time I checked, China is what, 4000 year old nation? Now, we are a new kid on the block, and are doing very well for ourselves, but in the long scheme of things, our 50 years of being a superpower are barely a blip on their historical radar. Until we can put down that sort of longevity, there is no need to be cocky. They have seen so many great enemies and rivals come and go, and all they did is outwait, outbreed, and outlive them. I know in the states it's all about what's happening now, but in other parts of the world people are much more aware of history, and their place in history, and that they don't necessarily need to exert themselves trying to build some big empire or be the first in everything, but proceed slowly but surely at their own pace.
That said, I think there might be a conflict between Russia and China over Siberia in this century. China has 100 Milion people in the north, and Russia has maybe 5 Million in Siberia along the Chinese border. Russia was lucky to get some serious nukes and rockets before it was too late.

Ding Ding, we have a winner!
 
Originally posted by: sandorski
Terrain Iraq is an easy target, for there are few places to hide in the desert. Korea/China OTOH is a completely different scenario.
Yes, it is... Iraq is the ideal place to fight a war, large open expanses of land allow us to fight on our terms.

Now ask yourself this... What in China would we attack? The mountains? No, because no one cares about the mountains...

We would attack the cities, because if you can take and hold the cities, you have the keys to the country.

China is a collection of 300 million people living in the 21 Century and 800 million living in the 10th Century. No one cares about the 800 million, and the 300 million that you do care about live in cities. Cities built on flat land...

No, it would not be as easy as fighting in Iraq, but it would not be as hard as the Korean War was...

Our infred and thermal technology override much of the advantages of defending forces, because "hiding" doesn't do any good (unless you're in cave).

We're not talking about chasing down a few dozen guys in Afghanstain, that was not really a war, that was a battle to find a few specific people.

In order to hurt us, China would have to concentrate her forces. The minute she does that, we'd smash them to bits.

In many places armor would be useless or easily hidden from potential Air Strikes,
Useless? Again, armor has changed a lot since the Korean War.

Easily hidden? Not unless they have caves...

In Kosvo, they tried to hide the armor, we destroyed a lot of it anyway. And while it was hidden, it was unable to do any actual fighting. Even when it was, it was being used in ones and twos to kill civilians, not fight a military force on the ground.

Infantry would also be easily hidden able to ambush Armor
Ahh... ambush the armor with... what? sticks and stones?

RPGs cannot destroy modern American tanks...

and the use of Infantry would be much more important.
For what? Please explain how we would use Infantry?

Our infantry has Bradley's today, they don't have to march like they did in Korea and Vietnam... the world has changed...

: ) Hopper
 
Originally posted by: jjessico
You said it yourself. A Chinese military that was preparing to defend its country would be hard to see and hard to reach. China is not one big desert like Iraq.
That is true... but a military in hiding can't fight either...

If their military wants to prevent us from taking the cities, they will have to come out and fight. A lot of it would be destroyed in the first few days of the war with air power anyway. The rest would run to hide, but again, it can't fight while hiding.

: ) Hopper
 
Originally posted by: jjessico
Vietnam =/= Invading China
Gulf War =/= Invading China

We shall sample from Vietnam first. Shitty terrain to fight armoured battles on, lots of mountains and trees to hide troops and AA in, indigenous people who are comitted to their country.
Sigh...

We could have defeated Vietnam 30 years ago if we had really wanted to...

Tell me, why didn't we bomb Hanoi for the first 6 years of the war? I'll tell you why, because we never really wanted to win.

Sampling from Gulf War 1+2 we have advanced former soviet weaponry, which despite most american's beliefs, are still viable.
Not against American equipment it isn't...

The Russian T-72 and T-82 tanks are simply not up to the same standard of American tanks. Our guns fire further, our armor is better, our aim more accurate, and our training is better.

Those T-72 tanks would be more effective in the hands of well trained forces, but unless you put idiots in the M1A1 tanks, it won't matter.

So combining the good home-army advantage of terrain with moderately advanced weapons you create a battlefield scenario that is no easy despite the number of bombs you see blow up buildings on TV.
The first Gulf War was one of the most lopsided military victories in the recorded history of warfare.

Two reasons...

First, our equipment was superior to the Iraqi equipment.

Second, our training was superior to the Iraqi training.

Both are imporant, great equipment is useless in the hands of untrained soldiers, while the best trained soldiers can't do much with out of date equipment fighting trained troops in superior equipment.

: ) Hopper
 
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