Woman sues restaurant $100K for poor service

[Brainonska511]

It's coffee. Its served hot.

Buying a hot drink, holding it between your thighs and wrestling with the lid?

Anything that happens after that is purely your fault.

Yes, we all know coffee is hot, but it is generally not SCALDING hot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants#Trial_and_verdict

The trial took place from August 8–17, 1994, before New Mexico District Court Judge Robert H. Scott.[16] During the case, Liebeck's attorneys discovered that McDonald's required franchisees to hold coffee at 180–190 °F (82–88 °C). At 190 °F (88 °C), the coffee would cause a third-degree burn in two to seven seconds. Liebeck's attorney argued that coffee should never be served hotter than 140 °F (60 °C), and that a number of other establishments served coffee at a substantially lower temperature than McDonald's.

 

[jlee]

Yes, we all know coffee is hot. We don't know that coffee is SCALDING hot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants#Trial_and_verdict

Have you never made tea or coffee before? How do you think it works?

Some judges apparently agree-

Judge Field of the Queen's Bench wrote: "If this submission be right, McDonald's should not have served drinks at any temperature which would have caused a bad scalding injury. The evidence is that tea or coffee served at a temperature of 65 °C [149 °F] will cause a deep thickness burn if it is in contact with the skin for just two seconds. Thus, if McDonald’s were going to avoid the risk of injury by a deep thickness burn they would have had to have served tea and coffee at between 55 °C and 60 °C. [131–140 °F] But tea ought to be brewed with boiling water if it is to give its best flavour and coffee ought to be brewed at between 85 °C and 95 °C. [185–203 °F] Further, people generally like to allow a hot drink to cool to the temperature they prefer. Accordingly, I have no doubt that tea and coffee served at between 55 °C and 60 °C would not have been acceptable to McDonald's customers. Indeed, on the evidence, I find that the public want to be able to buy tea and coffee served hot, that is to say at a temperature of at least 65 °C, even though they know (as I think they must be taken to do for the purposes of answering issues (1) and (2)) that there is a risk of a scalding injury if the drink is spilled." Bogle & Ors v McDonald’s Restaurants Ltd. [2002] EWHC 490, at 33

Similar lawsuits
In McMahon v. Bunn Matic Corporation (1998), Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Frank Easterbrook wrote a unanimous opinion affirming dismissal of a similar lawsuit against coffeemaker manufacturer Bunn-O-Matic, finding that 179 °F (82 °C) hot coffee was not "unreasonably dangerous".[24]

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Your kitchen coffee is not nearly as hot as what McDonald's was serving their coffee at. Why would you expect your coffee to be **scalding** hot?

That should be IMPOSSIBLE according to the laws of Physics and Chemistry.

Assuming I make my Coffee using boiling water, then it will be around 100 degrees C, immediately after making it. Adding cold milk etc, would cool it down, but let's assume it is black.

You can't heat water (or Coffee in a cup) above boiling point (around 100 degrees C), as any attempt to heat it to a higher temperature would just produce more steam, the temperature would remain at boiling point.

There are trick methods, to produce higher boiling temperatures, such as adding certain chemicals (e.g. Salt) to the Coffee or increasing (or allowing) the pressure to exceed atmospheric pressure, and other methods. But these can usually be discounted, if you are making a normal cup of Coffee.

But I do agree, that lowering the Coffee temperature, may be a good idea, on safety grounds. But I'm NOT expert enough on food technology, to know all the pros and cons of doing this.

 

[Brainonska511]

That should be IMPOSSIBLE according to the laws of Physics and Chemistry.

Assuming I make my Coffee using boiling water, then it will be around 100 degrees C, immediately after making it. Adding cold milk etc, would cool it down, but let's assume it is black.

You can't heat water (or Coffee in a cup) above boiling point (around 100 degrees C), as any attempt to heat it to a higher temperature would just produce more steam, the temperature would remain at boiling point.

There are trick methods, to produce higher boiling temperatures, such as adding certain chemicals (e.g. Salt) to the Coffee or increasing (or allowing) the pressure to exceed atmospheric pressure, and other methods. But these can usually be discounted, if you are making a normal cup of Coffee.

But I do agree, that lowering the Coffee temperature, may be a good idea, on safety grounds. But I'm NOT expert enough on food technology, to know all the pros and cons of doing this.

Your coffee maker is putting out coffee that's boiling? That's some coffee maker you've got.

And if you boil water on the stove, you certainly know that it's boiling. We're talking about a restaurant that's selling a product that is presumably ready to consume, which at 180-190F is clearly not ready to consume.

Also, it is possible for it to be scalding.

Scalding (from the Latin word calidus, meaning hot[1]) is a form of thermal burn resulted from heated fluids such as boiling water or steam. Most scalds are considered first or second degree burns, but third degree burns can result, especially with prolonged contact.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Your coffee maker is putting out coffee that's boiling? That's some coffee maker you've got.

And if you boil water on the stove, you certainly know that it's boiling. We're talking about a restaurant that's selling a product that is presumably ready to consume, which at 180-190F is clearly not ready to consume.

Who said anything about a coffee maker ?

In many households in the UK (including mine). We make Tea/Coffee/Hot chocolate using this:

Many people use Coffee maker machines in the UK as well, but many also use Kettles or heat it in a Microwave.

But I do agree that a lower temperature may indeed be more suitable for people who want to drink it quickly, without waiting for it to cool.

 

[WelshBloke]

Yes, we all know coffee is hot, but it is generally not SCALDING hot.

I'm going to disagree, feel free to prove me wrong by buying a cup of coffee and poring it over your crotch.

You can do it at several different establishments if you want to get all scientific about it.

 

[WelshBloke]

Who said anything about a coffee maker ?

In many households in the UK (including mine). We make Tea/Coffee/Hot chocolate using this:

Many people use Coffee maker machines in the UK as well, but many also use Kettles or heat it in a Microwave.

But I do agree that a lower temperature may indeed be more suitable for people who want to drink it quickly, without waiting for it to cool.

Paging Rudeguy... Paging Rudeguy...

THIS IS NOW A KETTLE THREAD!

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Paging Rudeguy... Paging Rudeguy...

THIS IS NOW A KETTLE THREAD!

Sorry, I should have included Wales.

They use these to make coffee:

Hopefully, you realized, I am JOKING!

 

[WelshBloke]

Sorry, I should have included Wales.

They use these to make coffee:

Hopefully, you realized, I am JOKING!

:awe: My Granny did have one of those.

She didn't drink anything as fancy as coffee though.

 

[SagaLore]

They should criminally charge her for theft of the wine.

Yep they should counter sue.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

:awe: My Granny did have one of those.

She didn't drink anything as fancy as coffee though.

I think if you really know what you are doing, you can cook some awesome meals with it.

I imagine I would be hopeless at trying to cook with one of those aga's.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Next time I go to timmy's I'm going to try to remember to bring my temp reader gun and see what temp it's served at. Not the most accurate way to measure since it will be given to me while I'm in a cold car and I'll want to get out of the way for the next person at the drive thru but I'll try to measure as soon as I can.

I'm pretty sure it's at a temp that would scald if it immediately came in contact with skin.

Heck even keurig brewed coffee is pretty hot, I usually let it cool off a bit before drinking. It's even hotter than that from Timmy's.

I could always go in the store and bring the temp reader gun but people will probably think I'm weird. "wow, this guy is really particular about this coffee!"

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

I think the most she should have done, is either withhold paying a tip or complained to the restaurant. Suing them for this thing, seems over the top.

 

[Bateluer]

she's representing herself

Shouldn't take long to wrap this up then.

 

[WelshBloke]

I think if you really know what you are doing, you can cook some awesome meals with it.

I imagine I would be hopeless at trying to cook with one of those aga's.

She hated that thing. I remember her being so pleased when she got a 'posh' modern white gas cooker.

Those things ended up being sold for thousands to yuppies, I think hers went for scrap.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

She hated that thing. I remember her being so pleased when she got a 'posh' modern white gas cooker.

Those things ended up being sold for thousands to yuppies, I think hers went for scrap.

Don't worry. I'm all too frequently hearing of stuff which is worth a small fortune today, and which I either had at the time (or could easily have bought), when it was current, but don't have it now (for whatever reason).

E.g. Jupiter Ace, Mk14 computer (Sinclair), early Apple computer, Commodore Pet etc.

 

[SSSnail]

You guys completely missed the whole point of this story, that she was ALONE on Valentines day, and her husband decided to stay home. And, he was right to stay the fuck away from that bitch.

 

[WelshBloke]

You guys completely missed the whole point of this story, that she was ALONE on Valentines day, and her husband decided to stay home. And, he was right to stay the fuck away from that bitch.

'Hey honey, you know I'm a bit tired and full from lunch'

'Really Babe? Well don't you worry. You stay in and drink beer and watch TV. I'll go to this romantic dinner that I've planed for us on my own. Its fine. '

Said no woman fucking ever.

 

[BarkingGhostar]

Wow, even her husband wouldn't go with her on V day. LOL

 

[Ancalagon44]

I'm quoting from her filing:

I've been a residence of North and Northeast Portland for 50 and still a residence here to the present.

No wonder they didn't serve her - she just said she is a house!

But wait, it gets better

Being a small minority business owner as well as my husband

1. She is her own husband?
2. She deserves sympathy because she is a minority?

 

[pcgeek11]

Your coffee maker is putting out coffee that's boiling? That's some coffee maker you've got.

And if you boil water on the stove, you certainly know that it's boiling. We're talking about a restaurant that's selling a product that is presumably ready to consume, which at 180-190F is clearly not ready to consume.

Also, it is possible for it to be scalding.

You do realise that is how a drip coffee maker works right. The water boils in a small heated area in the bottom and the boiling of the water forces it up to the nozzle that sprays it into the grounds.

Oh wait I guess you do not.

 

[irishScott]

Wow, a lot of people have no idea how coffee is made. Guess that's a product of the drip machine generation.

http://www.ncausa.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageID=71

Water Temperature During Brewing
Your brewer should maintain a water temperature between 195 - 205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction. Colder water will result in flat, underextracted coffee while water that is too hot will also cause a loss of quality in the taste of the coffee. If you are brewing the coffee manually, let the water come to a full boil, but do not overboil. Turn off the heat source and allow the water to rest a minute before pouring it over the grounds.

For reference, boiling is 212 degrees F. So yeah, coffee fresh out of the pot is "scalding", even if it's down to 180 degrees or whatever after 4 minutes of brewing. At least the coffee I make always is. It's called "be careful" and "wait for it to cool". I've made coffee and tea this way for years and despite the occasional accident have never suffered more than a small 2nd degree burn on one hand, and that was one time only.

 

[smitbret]

If I make tea at home, it's generally with boiling water. That's hotter than water in your radiator.

Actually, no. The water in your radiator is diluted with anti-freeze and is under pressure so it boils at a higher temperature. Most cars run hotter than boiling.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Wow, even her husband wouldn't go with her on V day. LOL

This. Her husband made up an excuse not to have to go out with her, guess he doesn't think he stands a chance in divorce court if it comes to that and therefor just avoids her. Or spends his Valentine's day with his gf instead.

 

[ControlD]

I'm going to disagree, feel free to prove me wrong by buying a cup of coffee and poring it over your crotch.

That's generally how I take my coffee. That isn't normal?