With $15/hr min in CA, #NoMoreTipping movement has solid footing?

[werepossum]

And we have actual studies conducted by those with actual experience, to you know--enhance their experience, that claims otherwise. Data is funny when you actually try to apply it to pre-conceived notions.

OMG!

I have experience! therefore data is wrong! Data, in fact, is the aggregate collection of well more than one person's experience.

Funny, that. It always shocks me when you put on your anti-science hat whenever data rejects your assumptions. Well, it's more like clockwork, really. so maybe not so shocking.

Well, you have a choice. Most people know lots of servers. Most people have functional mouths and ears. You can ask the servers you know whether good servers make more than shitty servers and therefore form your world view from actual experience. OR you can choose to let others form your world view for you and call it science. Funny though how your experience will be uniform as you add more samples, yet you also accept that if one adds enough data (which by the way is plural, not singular) then the results will be the polar opposite.

You will not find a single person who has a published study concluding that tipping is bad/useless/counterproductive who favors tipping for any reason, including ideology, or who favored tipping before their study enlightened them. Isn't it a bit strange that "science" always tells people exactly what they want to hear? Virtually all studies are conducted like high school science, with a pre-determined conclusion. Even worse are meta-studies.

The big downside to such studies is that they empower grievances. Armed with studies "proving" that their performance has little or nothing to do with their tips, servers who absolutely suck are free to imagine reasons why society is to blame, not their own rude, incompetent performance, and thus are encouraged to demand that government protect them from such abuses and discrimination. It's a way to reward poor performance and penalize good performance - as always, equalizing results - by establishing the Peter Principle everywhere.

 

[openwheel]

In usually annoyed as I typically tip 20% on the post tax amt in cash, so the already added rate is lower.

Rarely then do I top it off more (unless I really feel motivated to calc the extra 2% and write it up in the receipt).

My thoughts then are "you want, you get, good enough for me" I'm not digging for that extra $0.74 when I've already signing the CC slip.

I would categorize you into the "feel pressured" group.
While that infamous guy would definitely be the "feel anger" group.

 

[fskimospy]

Well, you have a choice. Most people know lots of servers. Most people have functional mouths and ears. You can ask the servers you know whether good servers make more than shitty servers and therefore form your world view from actual experience. OR you can choose to let others form your world view for you and call it science. Funny though how your experience will be uniform as you add more samples, yet you also accept that if one adds enough data (which by the way is plural, not singular) then the results will be the polar opposite.

You will not find a single person who has a published study concluding that tipping is bad/useless/counterproductive who favors tipping for any reason, including ideology, or who favored tipping before their study enlightened them. Isn't it a bit strange that "science" always tells people exactly what they want to hear? Virtually all studies are conducted like high school science, with a pre-determined conclusion. Even worse are meta-studies.

The big downside to such studies is that they empower grievances. Armed with studies "proving" that their performance has little or nothing to do with their tips, servers who absolutely suck are free to imagine reasons why society is to blame, not their own rude, incompetent performance, and thus are encouraged to demand that government protect them from such abuses and discrimination. It's a way to reward poor performance and penalize good performance - as always, equalizing results - by establishing the Peter Principle everywhere.

This is an amazing post that should be preserved as you will rarely see a more proud declaration of willful ignorance than this. Not only is research pointless as it is so corrupt as to only serve to reinforce personal biases, but it is actively harmful by empowering the incompetent. No need to do research when your gut tells you everything you need to know!

Also, data can be used as both singular and plural. Your style guide is out of date, unless of course in addition to having singlehandedly invalidated research as a method for understanding you also consider your use of English to be superior to the NYT and WSJ.

 

[DrunkenSano]

Well, you have a choice. Most people know lots of servers. Most people have functional mouths and ears. You can ask the servers you know whether good servers make more than shitty servers and therefore form your world view from actual experience. OR you can choose to let others form your world view for you and call it science. Funny though how your experience will be uniform as you add more samples, yet you also accept that if one adds enough data (which by the way is plural, not singular) then the results will be the polar opposite.

You will not find a single person who has a published study concluding that tipping is bad/useless/counterproductive who favors tipping for any reason, including ideology, or who favored tipping before their study enlightened them. Isn't it a bit strange that "science" always tells people exactly what they want to hear? Virtually all studies are conducted like high school science, with a pre-determined conclusion. Even worse are meta-studies.

The big downside to such studies is that they empower grievances. Armed with studies "proving" that their performance has little or nothing to do with their tips, servers who absolutely suck are free to imagine reasons why society is to blame, not their own rude, incompetent performance, and thus are encouraged to demand that government protect them from such abuses and discrimination. It's a way to reward poor performance and penalize good performance - as always, equalizing results - by establishing the Peter Principle everywhere.

I've asked friends who have worked in the industry (also listened to some of their complaints in the past), friends who had friends who worked the industry, read people's online experiences who were servers, and good servers do not always get the best tips. Sometimes they get shit on.

I have been told by various sources that attractive servers get good tips and this goes for bartenders as well. Hot girls who show a bit of cleavage or have uniforms that compliment their figures tend to earn higher tips on average than your average or below average looking server. It didn't matter how good the server was in comparison, as long as she didn't fuck up, she got a higher tip.

So no, better server does not always command a higher tip. Also, there is restaurant politics as well. Friends with the hostess? Get assigned better tables. Friends with the manager? Get better shifts.

 

[K1052]

Well, you have a choice. Most people know lots of servers. Most people have functional mouths and ears. You can ask the servers you know whether good servers make more than shitty servers and therefore form your world view from actual experience. OR you can choose to let others form your world view for you and call it science. Funny though how your experience will be uniform as you add more samples, yet you also accept that if one adds enough data (which by the way is plural, not singular) then the results will be the polar opposite.

You will not find a single person who has a published study concluding that tipping is bad/useless/counterproductive who favors tipping for any reason, including ideology, or who favored tipping before their study enlightened them. Isn't it a bit strange that "science" always tells people exactly what they want to hear? Virtually all studies are conducted like high school science, with a pre-determined conclusion. Even worse are meta-studies.

The big downside to such studies is that they empower grievances. Armed with studies "proving" that their performance has little or nothing to do with their tips, servers who absolutely suck are free to imagine reasons why society is to blame, not their own rude, incompetent performance, and thus are encouraged to demand that government protect them from such abuses and discrimination. It's a way to reward poor performance and penalize good performance - as always, equalizing results - by establishing the Peter Principle everywhere.

This is some high test crazy. You used to be sorta reasonable. What happened?

 

[openwheel]

Sounds like you want to create a utopia socialist environment.

Hotter server gets better tips. So what?
Ugly server is friends with the hostess. What's the big deal?

If the patrons like looking at beautiful servers, and willingly tip more, then what's the problem here? That's a win-win.

 

[Ns1]

ah n/m

 

[openwheel]

This is some high test crazy. You used to be sorta reasonable. What happened?

His post was well written. He is very kind to actually engage these guys with reason. The debate is over, and they don't deserve anymore than sarcasm (which apparently cheap bastards don't seem to understand).

 

[stlc8tr]

At least this thread is useful for determining the people who resort to ad homs and straw men instead of actually debating the topic at hand.

 

[werepossum]

This is an amazing post that should be preserved as you will rarely see a more proud declaration of willful ignorance than this. Not only is research pointless as it is so corrupt as to only serve to reinforce personal biases, but it is actively harmful by empowering the incompetent. No need to do research when your gut tells you everything you need to know!

Also, data can be used as both singular and plural. Your style guide is out of date, unless of course in addition to having singlehandedly invalidated research as a method for understanding you also consider your use of English to be superior to the NYT and WSJ.

<sigh> Not "my gut", what I can directly observe.

And yes, I do consider my English to be superior to the NYT and WSJ. For instance, I know the word "datum" and can properly use it in a sentence.

I've asked friends who have worked in the industry (also listened to some of their complaints in the past), friends who had friends who worked the industry, read people's online experiences who were servers, and good servers do not always get the best tips. Sometimes they get shit on.

I have been told by various sources that attractive servers get good tips and this goes for bartenders as well. Hot girls who show a bit of cleavage or have uniforms that compliment their figures tend to earn higher tips on average than your average or below average looking server. It didn't matter how good the server was in comparison, as long as she didn't fuck up, she got a higher tip.

So no, better server does not always command a higher tip. Also, there is restaurant politics as well. Friends with the hostess? Get assigned better tables. Friends with the manager? Get better shifts.

Virtually nothing is "always". Your points are quite valid, but in general, servers who are better at their jobs make more money than those who are bad at their jobs. That also tends to flavor the factors you list, as worse servers tend to have frosty relationships with the manager, tend to get worse shifts, and tend to get worse tables. Friends or not, restaurant managers tend not to put poor servers on the better shifts, because that hurts business. Many a server reacts to others getting the better shifts by deriding those who do as brown-nosers or attributing it to friendship when in reality, their own performance is simply not up to snuff. But I can also accept that managers are human and just as susceptible to letting friendships cloud judgement as are the rest of us.

This is some high test crazy. You used to be sorta reasonable. What happened?

Got tired of people trying to tell me that reality was what they want it to be, not what we can readily observe.

 

[K1052]

Got tired of people trying to tell me that reality was what they want it to be, not what we can readily observe.

The possibility that the conclusions you reached through your own anecdotal observations may be flawed really isn't of any concern whatsoever?

 

[Ns1]

The possibility that the conclusions you reached through your own anecdotal observations may be flawed really isn't of any concern whatsoever?

get the fuck outta here you cheap bastard.

 

[Fern]

This thread makes my head hurt and is proof of the downfall of civilization.

People needing goddamned studies to understand tipping etc?

Fern

 

[K1052]

get the fuck outta here you cheap bastard.

It's not my fault they don't have change for krugerrands.

 

[werepossum]

The possibility that the conclusions you reached through your own anecdotal observations may be flawed really isn't of any concern whatsoever?

Always. But this is an area where each individual has a wealth of observational reality available. That raises the bar considerably when someone tries to tell me that reality is fundamentally opposite from what I can see.

As an example, let us use garbage truck workers. My experience is that this is a fairly low-paid profession, yet my pool of experience is considerably smaller than with servers. Therefore a study telling me that garbage truck worker is actually a well-paid profession has a lower bar to hurdle than one telling me that servers don't make better money if they are good at their jobs. Similarly, a study telling me that garbage truck worker is actually a well-paid profession on average world-wide has a lower bar to hurdle than one telling me that garbage truck worker is actually a well-paid profession in America, since all my observations are American. The fewer my observations, the easier to convince me that reality is other than I can perceive. Conversely, the farther the deviation from my personal observations, the more difficult it becomes to convince me. Meaning that if my personal observations would place a garbage truck worker earning roughly $25k per year in Tennessee, it's easier to convince me that the average American garbage truck worker earns $50k per year than that he earns $250,000 per year.

 

[Ns1]

It's not my fault they don't have change for krugerrands.

if you were a decent person you'd tell them to keep the change, but you're not. cheapass.

 

[K1052]

Always. But this is an area where each individual has a wealth of observational reality available. That raises the bar considerably when someone tries to tell me that reality is fundamentally opposite from what I can see.

You want to dismiss studies for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with their actual validity, it would seem for mostly invented justifications (they're biased, incompetent, pandering). You're not raising the bar....you're dismantling the posts it rests on and chucking the whole setup down the well and telling me I can't prove it existed.

 

[openwheel]

This thread makes my head hurt and is proof of the downfall of civilization.

People needing goddamned studies to understand tipping etc?

Fern

LMAO this is the best post in this thread.

 

[stlc8tr]

This thread makes my head hurt and is proof of the downfall of civilization.

People needing goddamned studies to understand tipping etc?

Fern

If tipping was necessary for good service, how do you explain those high end 3-star restaurants that do away with tipping?

 

[Ns1]

If tipping was necessary for good service, how do you explain those high end 3-star restaurants that do away with tipping?

they don't deal with cheapasses like you.

 

[fskimospy]

This thread makes my head hurt and is proof of the downfall of civilization.

People needing goddamned studies to understand tipping etc?

Fern

How do you understand tipping?

 

[openwheel]

If tipping was necessary for good service, how do you explain those high end 3-star restaurants that do away with tipping?

Wait, let me get this straight.

You are trying to argue against an economic system, by pointing out the lack of its existent in a few establishments?

Allow me to remind you, for every "3-star restaurant that did away with tipping", there are hundreds more that didn't.

Like I said, this just gets better and better.

 

[openwheel]

How do you understand tipping?

post 476 by werepossum.

 

[openwheel]

they don't deal with cheapasses like you.

Somehow you trying to copy my sarcasm doesn't really work. You need original material.

 

[JSt0rm]

Why are you taking wages away from the hard working waiter for something that isn't their fault? Passive aggressive bullshit were you think you are the big man in control...

Well that depends I remember distinctly telling a food runner I'm not serving a grouper because it was burnt right in front of the guest. That shit was rejected and sent back to be done right. You bet the tip was good.