With $15/hr min in CA, #NoMoreTipping movement has solid footing?

[stlc8tr]

they don't deal with cheapasses like you.

Yeah, I guess asking FoH staff to just do their jobs without bribes is too much of an ask.

 

[michal1980]

Wait, let me get this straight.

You are trying to argue against an economic system, by pointing out the lack of its existent in a few establishments?

Allow me to remind you, for every "3-star restaurant that did away with tipping", there are hundreds more that didn't.

Like I said, this just gets better and better.

tipping exsists only in the dining industry, and then in a handful of countries, and if you are really honest its mainly the USA/Canada.

So why are you trying to argue for a stupid system of payment that does not insure good service?

IMHO most people arguing for it are really against wages because then they'd pay taxes on their earnings, so even if the top number stays the same, their take home will go down.

Oh and those arguing for tips are racists & sexists.

 

[bozack]

tipping exsists only in the dining industry, and then in a handful of countries, and if you are really honest its mainly the USA/Canada.

So why are you trying to argue for a stupid system of payment that does not insure good service?

IMHO most people arguing for it are really against wages because then they'd pay taxes on their earnings, so even if the top number stays the same, their take home will go down.

Oh and those arguing for tips are racists & sexists.

So with Tipping I see it as a bit broader than just dining as there is furniture/appliance delivery, taxi service, hair cuts, valet parking and I am sure I a missing a few

While I don't have a problem with tipping for good service or to encourage someone to treat your stuff better what I do think is interesting is the notion of an expected minimum tip, and that seems to only be present in the restaurant industry...where you have to pay at least 15% regardless of if your service was terrible or else you're made to feel like an absolute dirtbag.

I would like to see wages increase and tipping focus more on quality of service than supplemental income and the percentage decline as well with that...the few times I have been overseas I noticed they don't seem to tip nearly as heavily as we do here in the states and that is seen as perfectly acceptable, but I also had read that US tourists were changing the dynamic over there and now tipping is getting to be more expected.

 

[openwheel]

tipping exsists only in the dining industry, and then in a handful of countries, and if you are really honest its mainly the USA/Canada.

So why are you trying to argue for a stupid system of payment that does not insure good service?

IMHO most people arguing for it are really against wages because then they'd pay taxes on their earnings, so even if the top number stays the same, their take home will go down.

Oh and those arguing for tips are racists & sexists.

1st of all, tipping exists outside of dining industry. I sure hope you tipped your Uber driver, taxi driver, maids and more.

2nd, we can argue whether tipping creates better service all day, but the opponents are arguing for mandatory "service fee" to be included in the meal with or without decent service. At least for someone who feels pressured into tipping 15-18%, they have the ability to lower the bill if bad service is received.

There are only two conclusions for the anti-tippers. They either don't understand the economics behind a free market system, or they are just cheap.

 

[Genx87]

What's funny to me is the anti-tippers swearing from one side of their mouth that they are big tippers, then from the other side whining about how tipping is terrible and it's hurting poor, poor Jose back in the kitchen.

Which, kind of tells me they're lying about one or the other. (GASP! People lie on the internet!?) Why would do something you really believed was hurting someone whose cause you were pretending to champion? Either that, or you don't *really* buy into the horseshit that your tip is harming anyone else and not helping the server you gave it to.

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that the lie is the later.

If what you say were true. Why would people against the practice propose a system that would raise menu prices by 20%? If being cheap is their goal. Then the current system works out great. They can get cheaper food and not tip. Hmmmm

 

[openwheel]

I would like to see wages increase and tipping focus more on quality of service than supplemental income and the percentage decline as well with that...the few times I have been overseas I noticed they don't seem to tip nearly as heavily as we do here in the states and that is seen as perfectly acceptable, but I also had read that US tourists were changing the dynamic over there and now tipping is getting to be more expected.

In Europe, they have created a sea of career waitors/waitresses with full benefits. The price of food includes mandatory service fee (whether it is listed or not). That's why if you tip, they just laugh at you Americans when you leave. They turn tables extremely slow. They'll tell you they are trained to stay away so you can enjoy your meal. What that translates to is you will be lucky to receive prompt service.

The best services I've received in Europe, are from smaller restaurants where the family and owners themselves are the servers. Mainly the Chianti regions, southern Italy, Alps, rural France and rural eastern Europe.

 

[fskimospy]

If what you say were true. Why would people against the practice propose a system that would raise menu prices by 20%? If being cheap is their goal. Then the current system works out great. They can get cheaper food and not tip. Hmmmm

It's like he doesn't even realize how incoherent his point is. If you're truly a cheapskate you can go out to eat every night and never tip. The other diners will effectively be subsidizing your meal! The wage system, among its other benefits, eliminates free riders.

 

[openwheel]

If what you say were true. Why would people against the practice propose a system that would raise menu prices by 20%? If being cheap is their goal. Then the current system works out great. They can get cheaper food and not tip. Hmmmm

weird, that's not what Danny Meyer claims. Perhaps you anti-tippers need to figure out what exactly you are proposing first.

 

[Genx87]

weird, that's not what Danny Meyer claims. Perhaps you anti-tippers need to figure out what exactly you are proposing first.

I think the people within this thread are straight forward on what we propose. Eliminate tipping, increase staff compensation, and we will pay for increased menu prices to fund it.

 

[openwheel]

It's like he doesn't even realize how incoherent his point is. If you're truly a cheapskate you can go out to eat every night and never tip. The other diners will effectively be subsidizing your meal! The wage system, among its other benefits, eliminates free riders.

So why don't you just automatically tip 20% regardless of food/service quality in the first place? :thumbsup:

The rest of us prefer to tip between $0.01 for piss poor service and $10,000 after signing a big contract.

But it is difficult to argue with people who rather pay automatic 20% instead of the freedom to choose.

 

[fskimospy]

<sigh> Not "my gut", what I can directly observe.

And yes, I do consider my English to be superior to the NYT and WSJ. For instance, I know the word "datum" and can properly use it in a sentence.

That's basically your gut then. People's perceptions of reality are often wildly wrong, which is why empirical research is so useful. The Dunning-Kruger effect is a great example when say, someone who has no idea how to conduct empirical research thinks that they have the ability to indict an entire field because they know some waiters.

 

[Genx87]

It's like he doesn't even realize how incoherent his point is. If you're truly a cheapskate you can go out to eat every night and never tip. The other diners will effectively be subsidizing your meal! The wage system, among its other benefits, eliminates free riders.

I know, amazing isnt it?

 

[fskimospy]

So why don't you just automatically tip 20% regardless of food/service quality in the first place? :thumbsup:

The rest of us prefer to tip between $0.01 for piss poor service and $10,000 after signing a big contract.

But it is difficult to argue with people who rather pay automatic 20% instead of the freedom to choose.

As already covered by the research there is at best a very small relationship between tips and service, so what you're suggesting doesn't happen on a meaningful enough scale to be effective at improving service.

So really the main question is why do you want to continue on with an illogical system that doesn't accomplish what you claim to want? I know you're emotionally invested in this issue, but think rationally. It's not doing what you claim to want, so why keep doing it?

 

[Genx87]

So why don't you just automatically tip 20% regardless of food/service quality in the first place? :thumbsup:

The rest of us prefer to tip between $0.01 for piss poor service and $10,000 after signing a big contract.

But it is difficult to argue with people who rather pay automatic 20% instead of the freedom to choose.

Because we want the compensation situation fixed. Tipping 20% is not the same as having a server properly paid by their employer.

 

[openwheel]

Because we want the compensation situation fixed. Tipping 20% is not the same as having a server properly paid by their employer.

Sounds pretty vague to me. What exactly is "properly paid"? Currently a typical server, let use Tiffany at Cheesecake Factory can make $25-$40 an hour easily depending on the shifts. Are you proposing a varied hourly rate between shifts? Are you proposing paid vacation and full benefits? That's indirect rate of 33%-70% above direct labor rate. With the amount of turn overs in the wait staff, now you gotta hire another HR professional due to the increase amount of work. You are opening a Pandora Box. Who do you think is going to pay for that? You actually think 20% is going to cover it? You got any "studies" to prove 20% is sufficient? Danny Meyers certainly disagrees with you.

What about the kitchen staff, they already have relatively low wage due to abundant supply, now you want to increase wait staff's base pay.....

 

[Genx87]

Sounds pretty vague to me. What exactly is "properly paid"? Currently a typical server, let use Tiffany at Cheesecake Factory can make $25-$40 an hour easily depending on the shifts. Are you proposing a varied hourly rate between shifts? Are you proposing paid vacation and full benefits? That's indirect rate of 33%-70% above direct labor rate.

What about the kitchen staff, they already have relatively low wage due to abundant supply, now you want to increase wait staff's base pay.....

What is vague about it? How are any service employees from working at McDonalds to doctors compensated? Negotiate with the employer.

 

[zinfamous]

This is some high test crazy. You used to be sorta reasonable. What happened?

He spent too much time arguing that climate science is some sort of hoax, despite the requirement to wholly accept obvious hoakum to fall into that camp.

"My clearly unabashed biased data is obviously more valid than your decades of peer-reviewed data because I declare that data false."

because.

It is a disease spreading like wildfire on these forums. Once the ability to shut oneself down to data that challenges passionate truths takes hold, it infects one's perception of nearly all other issues.

Funny thing, is I don't currently have a problem with tipping--I have a problem with the fact that the model is broken, unfair, and simply robs all parties involved. That is what the data clearly shows us.

I actually didn't see things this way until examining the facts presented in the data. I really was quite neutral on the matter, but in my work and life, I am not one to deny overwhelming data that challenges me to think beyond base assumptions and completely limited personal observations.

It is clear that overwheel and others have or have had serious skin in the game to hold such obstinate assumptions in the face of overwhelming facts. "Tradition" is the bastard child of wise constructs.

 

[fskimospy]

What is vague about it? How are any service employees from working at McDonalds to doctors compensated? Negotiate with the employer.

It is also bizarre how stubbornly they are clinging to the idea that restaurants are somehow special work environments where the wage model that works in most other industries (and in restaurants in other countries around the world) is somehow unworkable.

 

[LevelSea]

It is also bizarre how stubbornly they are clinging to the idea that restaurants are somehow special work environments where the wage model that works in most other industries (and in restaurants in other countries around the world) is somehow unworkable.

these are highly trained professionals, that can carry multiple plates and can remember specials. there's no way that's worth less than $40/hr.

 

[zinfamous]

This thread makes my head hurt and is proof of the downfall of civilization.

People needing goddamned studies to understand tipping etc?

Fern

If it is a failed wage policy, then yes.

Don't you think aiming for greater efficiency, more equitability, and less corruption (another fact that tipping is found in higher rates in the most corrupt countries in the world...but simple observation not only makes that obvious, it is also supported by data. and by a data. and data. and more data and multiple datums) is a common goal of all economists?

 

[openwheel]

What is vague about it? How are any service employees from working at McDonalds to doctors compensated? Negotiate with the employer.

Now you want to pay a monthly premium in order to eat at the local diner? Would you like the premium before tax or after tax?

Have you seen the price of "a la carte" menu at the doctor's office?

This is epic!!! Just EPIC.

 

[Genx87]

Now you want to pay a monthly premium in order to eat at the local diner? Would you like the premium before tax or after tax?

Have you seen the price of "a la carte" menu at the doctor's office?

This is epic!!! Just EPIC.

What are you babbling about? I am fine with increasing menu prices to pay for increased wages. How the server and employer arrive at proper compensation is between the server and employer.

 

[openwheel]

these are highly trained professionals, that can carry multiple plates and can remember specials. there's no way that's worth less than $40/hr.

I know you are trying to be sarcastic, but you actually sound like a sour puss who doesn't make $40/hr.

 

[openwheel]

What are you babbling about? I am fine with increasing menu prices to pay for increased wages. How the server and employer arrive at proper compensation is between the server and employer.

You willing to pay 40% more for the same steak?

 

[fskimospy]

You willing to pay 40% more for the same steak?

Can you show us the math on that?

By the way it's awesome that you're simultaneously calling other people cheapskates and then arguing that their preferred method of compensation would make things too expensive. Do you think before you write?