With $15/hr min in CA, #NoMoreTipping movement has solid footing?

[Ns1]

But food at Denny's is cheap.

Food at a 3* is generally much more.

One can support paying higher wages, and one probably can't.

Denny's will have to raise prices and ban tipping (or not ban tipping and deal with the fallout) or figure out some other math. Such is the price of $15 minimum wage, as been stated by many restaurant owners trying to survive on single digit margins.


$15 minimum wage means everybody at Denny's getting a raise - dishwashers, line cooks, waiters/waitresses...costs gonna go up for sure.

 

[Bitek]

I dont blame them either. But why not just say it instead of trying to come up with a stupid reason like tipping provides better service or we are all cheap asses?

That really is the issue right?

The "you're cheap" argument doesn't have merit.

I have severe doubts about the how effective the incentive model works as tip amounts are so variable.

If I lower my tip amount, does that accurately communicate to the server I am unhappy with level of service and correct their performance, or does the waiter assume the issue is I'm "cheap" and do nothing?

My thought it's usually the latter (as evidenced in this thread)

Or.. I'm a generous tipper to begin with, and my cut rate tip is in line with an avg tip, and the server learns nothing?


Really, I'd just rather the server do their job for a fair wage and not force the customer to have to make a bunch of performance, social and political weighting at the end of their evening out.

 

[Ns1]

If I lower my tip amount, does that accurately communicate to the server I am unhappy with level of service and correct their performance, or does the waiter assume the issue is I'm "cheap" and do nothing?

My thought it's usually the latter (as evidenced in this thread)

Or.. I'm a generous tipper to begin with, and my cut rate tip is in line with an avg tip, and the server learns nothing?

Probably depends on the color of your skin.

 

[Bitek]

Probably depends on the color of your skin.

Not sure if serious, but racial biases are surely found on both sides.

 

[Ns1]

Not sure if serious, but racial biases are surely found on both sides.

Totally serious, search the internet - people who work on tips commonly believe certain groups of people don't tip because they're too cheap. it will NEVER come across as a signal "oh I did a bad job".

 

[LTC8K6]

Denny's will have to raise prices and ban tipping (or not ban tipping and deal with the fallout) or figure out some other math. Such is the price of $15 minimum wage, as been stated by many restaurant owners trying to survive on single digit margins.


$15 minimum wage means everybody at Denny's getting a raise - dishwashers, line cooks, waiters/waitresses...costs gonna go up for sure.

Or some people at Denny's are getting fired...and the rest work harder...

 

[LTC8K6]

That really is the issue right?

The "you're cheap" argument doesn't have merit.

I have severe doubts about the how effective the incentive model works as tip amounts are so variable.

If I lower my tip amount, does that accurately communicate to the server I am unhappy with level of service and correct their performance, or does the waiter assume the issue is I'm "cheap" and do nothing?

My thought it's usually the latter (as evidenced in this thread)

Or.. I'm a generous tipper to begin with, and my cut rate tip is in line with an avg tip, and the server learns nothing?


Really, I'd just rather the server do their job for a fair wage and not force the customer to have to make a bunch of performance, social and political weighting at the end of their evening out.

If tips are pooled and divided, then a small tip doesn't matter much to that individual waiter/waitress. The tips are just wages, and don't have any effect on service if they are pooled and shared.

 

[Bitek]

Totally serious, search the internet - people who work on tips commonly believe certain groups of people don't tip because they're too cheap. it will NEVER come across as a signal "oh I did a bad job".

I believe you.

I also remember reading an article a while back where the attitude of the server was studied.

It's assumed that being nice and complimentary to the customer yielded better tips than a server who was dismissive and annoyed.

The study found that the annoyed server actually made more on tips.

Why?

The researchers found that many customers felt social pressure to be liked and accepted, so compensated in higher tips to please the server. Sure, some customers left poor tips at a higher rate than for the happy server, but it was more than compensated by those going high on the tips to please the irritated server.

0_o

 

[openwheel]

No dude, if you receive poor service, and you lower your tip, then you made a decision to lower the cost of your meal due to lower quality service. Don't worry about whether people think you are cheap or not.

Why is it that the anti-tippers are so worried about being called "cheap"? Perhaps, just perhaps, that they are cheap and it's really about the insecurity.

 

[openwheel]

Heh, I personally don't have a dog in this either, but sitting on the outside it is easy to default to the data argument vs the passion argument, because data always wins.

always.

I like watching the illogical thrash about with the "no, you!" retorts.

What data? A simple Google search? Danny Meyer's advertising campaign? For every nay sayer, there is a proponent. A fiscal conservative would prefer the tipping system, while a socialist would prefer the French system.

I prefer to have the freedom of lowering my bill if my steak is sub-par, rather than paying a hiked price for the same steak.

 

[openwheel]

Just curious, for the anti-tippers who hate to tip your servers, how do you actually feel when you receive that bill with the gratuity line? Do you feel anger? Do you feel resentment? Do you feel pressured into signing 18% away? Do you secretly tip nothing? Or do you actually happily tip?

I can't imagine you guys having much fun at a restaurant, bar, or even a Uber ride....

 

[fskimospy]

What data? A simple Google search? Danny Meyer's advertising campaign? For every nay sayer, there is a proponent. A fiscal conservative would prefer the tipping system, while a socialist would prefer the French system.

I prefer to have the freedom of lowering my bill if my steak is sub-par, rather than paying a hiked price for the same steak.

I already linked a peer reviewed meta-analysis of the literature on the relationship between tipping and service. The data shows there's a small relationship at best and it is not a reliable mechanism for determining quality of service.

If fiscal conservatives prefer a system where individuals can pay more to reward good service despite the data showing that there is no such relationship and so their money is functionally being ignored that's fine, but that's an indictment of the rationality of fiscal conservatives.

 

[LTC8K6]

Just curious, for the anti-tippers who hate to tip your servers, how do you actually feel when you receive that bill with the gratuity line? Do you feel anger? Do you feel resentment? Do you feel pressured into signing 18% away? Do you secretly tip nothing? Or do you actually happily tip?

I can't imagine you guys having much fun at a restaurant, bar, or even a Uber ride....

Let's ask the DOL:

Service Charges: A compulsory charge for service, for example, 15 percent of the bill, is not a tip. Such charges are part of the employer's gross receipts. Sums distributed to employees from service charges cannot be counted as tips received, but may be used to satisfy the employer's minimum wage and overtime obligations under the FLSA. If an employee receives tips in addition to the compulsory service charge, those tips may be considered in determining whether the employee is a tipped employee and in the application of the tip credit.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.htm

 

[openwheel]

I already linked a peer reviewed meta-analysis of the literature on the relationship between tipping and service. The data shows there's a small relationship at best and it is not a reliable mechanism for determining quality of service.

If fiscal conservatives prefer a system where individuals can pay more to reward good service despite the data showing that there is no such relationship and so their money is functionally being ignored that's fine, but that's an indictment of the rationality of fiscal conservatives.

You have Google? You mean I should've Googled 5 pages ago?

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/why-we-should-never-ban-tipping-173349084.html

 

[openwheel]

Let's ask the DOL:



http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.htm

A mandatory service charge is essentially what the anti-tippers want. WTF are you smoking?

A voluntary tipping custom is not the same as a mandatory service charge.

 

[Zaap]

Why is it that the anti-tippers are so worried about being called "cheap"? Perhaps, just perhaps, that they are cheap and it's really about the insecurity.

What's funny to me is the anti-tippers swearing from one side of their mouth that they are big tippers, then from the other side whining about how tipping is terrible and it's hurting poor, poor Jose back in the kitchen.

Which, kind of tells me they're lying about one or the other. (GASP! People lie on the internet!?) Why would do something you really believed was hurting someone whose cause you were pretending to champion? Either that, or you don't *really* buy into the horseshit that your tip is harming anyone else and not helping the server you gave it to.

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that the lie is the later. 😉

 

[KMFJD]

What data? A simple Google search? Danny Meyer's advertising campaign? For every nay sayer, there is a proponent. A fiscal conservative would prefer the tipping system, while a socialist would prefer the French system.

I prefer to have the freedom of lowering my bill if my steak is sub-par, rather than paying a hiked price for the same steak.

Why are you taking wages away from the hard working waiter for something that isn't their fault? Passive aggressive bullshit were you think you are the big man in control...

 

[fskimospy]

You have Google? You mean I should've Googled 5 pages ago?

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/why-we-should-never-ban-tipping-173349084.html

Hey look you linked a blog while I linked peer reviewed research.

Do you understand the difference? You're embarrassing yourself further.

 

[DrunkenSano]

Most of the time tipping isn't about quality of service, it's more about how attractive you are. Hot girl that shows some tits even if she forgot an order or two, just apologize with a sparkling smile? Big tip! Large grotesque waiter, ewwwww, no tip. I wouldn't be surprised if racism was involved there as well.

 

[openwheel]

Why are you taking wages away from the hard working waiter for something that isn't their fault? Passive aggressive bullshit were you think you are the big man in control...

What if the steak got cold because waitor took too long? What if the waitor forgot to tell the chef easy on the pepper? There are many ways a waitor can influence the quality of food.

It's part of the system, many restaurants share tips between wait staff and kitchen, generally the chefs have already accepted a salaried position to produce consistent quality of food, but some other positions accept a portion from the tip. Let the restaurant decide how to manage that.

 

[werepossum]

JEDI's thoughts about people on welfare: "Get a job, you bum!"
JEDI's thoughts about people with jobs: "You should be paid less, you bum!"

lol That's not really fair though. Looking at $15/hour, poor servers and/or those in cheap restaurants (or rural small towns) might make more money even without tips. And in any case, no one is saying that $15/hour is necessarily THE level at which tipping is unnecessary, just that it's certainly closer.

I worked in the industry for 15 years. Shitty servers made less money.

You are asking the wrong questions. What should be asked is what is the average per cover of a server who works for tips vs a server who doesnt. There you will find a server who is providing service. :sneaky:

Anyone with any sense and any experience knows that better servers make more than worse servers. For those with no sense and/or experience, we have studies.

 

[zinfamous]

]Just curious, for the anti-tippers who hate to tip your servers,[/B] how do you actually feel when you receive that bill with the gratuity line? Do you feel anger? Do you feel resentment? Do you feel pressured into signing 18% away? Do you secretly tip nothing? Or do you actually happily tip?

I can't imagine you guys having much fun at a restaurant, bar, or even a Uber ride....

such a disingenuous little dillhole, aren't you? Name one of us who have claimed that we don't tip?

the only cheap-ass, for the ~26th time, is you. You wish to pay your staff less than we would, and we still pay more today, and would without tips.

stop trying to convince yourself of anything beyond that fact.

 

[zinfamous]

lol That's not really fair though. Looking at $15/hour, poor servers and/or those in cheap restaurants (or rural small towns) might make more money even without tips. And in any case, no one is saying that $15/hour is necessarily THE level at which tipping is unnecessary, just that it's certainly closer.


Anyone with any sense and any experience knows that better servers make more than worse servers. For those with no sense and/or experience, we have studies.

And we have actual studies conducted by those with actual experience, to you know--enhance their experience, that claims otherwise. Data is funny when you actually try to apply it to pre-conceived notions.

OMG!

I have experience! therefore data is wrong! Data, in fact, is the aggregate collection of well more than one person's experience.

Funny, that. It always shocks me when you put on your anti-science hat whenever data rejects your assumptions. Well, it's more like clockwork, really. so maybe not so shocking. 😀

 

[fskimospy]

lol That's not really fair though. Looking at $15/hour, poor servers and/or those in cheap restaurants (or rural small towns) might make more money even without tips. And in any case, no one is saying that $15/hour is necessarily THE level at which tipping is unnecessary, just that it's certainly closer.


Anyone with any sense and any experience knows that better servers make more than worse servers. For those with no sense and/or experience, we have studies.

Did you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you do in your brain? Now you might say: 'I looked that up and it's not true.' That's because you read it in a book. Books are all fact, no heart.

 

[Bitek]

Just curious, for the anti-tippers who hate to tip your servers, how do you actually feel when you receive that bill with the gratuity line? Do you feel anger? Do you feel resentment? Do you feel pressured into signing 18% away? Do you secretly tip nothing? Or do you actually happily tip?

I can't imagine you guys having much fun at a restaurant, bar, or even a Uber ride....

In usually annoyed as I typically tip 20% on the post tax amt in cash, so the already added rate is lower.

Rarely then do I top it off more (unless I really feel motivated to calc the extra 2% and write it up in the receipt).

My thoughts then are "you want, you get, good enough for me" I'm not digging for that extra $0.74 when I've already signing the CC slip.