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Windows alternative.
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Gatecrusher
Member
Trust microsoft to come up with a better, more subtle one... 😉
blah blah blah
Microsoft informed people about Activation. It wasn't a secret. It doesn't take pictures of you spanking your pud to some she-male pics. It doesn't send them any personal information. It doesn't hide things. That's the difference between Sony's rootkit and activation. The rootkit was stupid, activation isn't so bad.
Yes, Sony done dicked up.
Unlike me? I'm using Free software. Most of the software I use is licensed so that no one can tell me I can't use it, and a lot of it is licensed so that no one can tell me how I use it (some of it has little restrictions, but not bad ones). So yes, I care. And unlike you, I've done something about it.
Or ... maybe companies should abandon attempts to change the functionality of devices they don't own. If Sony or Microsoft wants to send me a free DRM-box and hope that it creates a thriving market for DRM'd media, then hey, good luck with that. But if they want to change my computer into a DRM-box, they can go pound salt.
well, if you dont want to use windows because you thnk MS is an evil DRM machine, thats cool, its your choice. remember that lots of distros now are not packaging mp3 support in their media players. it's trivial to uninstall and install a version that does, but do be aware of that.
Well it's not so much you uninstall the program. You just have to install the codec support for it. After all things like LAME and such do come from open source.
If you purchase a distro they may or may not have support. Lindows, when you buy it, will provide MP3 and WMV support of out the box becaause Lindows pays licensing fees to be able to do that legally.
Most notable distros that I know of that don't have mp3 support out of the box are Ubuntu, Debian, and Fedora.
I don't know about Suse or Mandriva or Gentoo.
What is needed to be done to install support for mp3, as well as quicktime and wmv support is that you have to enable 3rd party or secondary 'repositories'.
Repositories are basicly ftp or http websites that contain the software you can install and use through the built-in package managers.
All of these distros come with native 64bit and native 32bit versions. If you want maximum ease of use you should select 32bit versions. For some media codecs the only source from compatability comes from the win32 codecs packages, which are media codecs for playing media files in windows. These are used by packages in Linux to play certain types of formats. Distros don't ship these due to the legal difficulties.
They want to ensure that people using their software can have it perfectly legal for use in educational, government, or corporate settings. Having support for mp3s and such may cause problems since the people that own that stuff are fairly anti-linux, anti-open source, pro-riaa type people.
For Fedora Core:
Fedora uses Yum, I beleive, for it's package management stuff. Although it does support a ported version of apt-get and 'smart' package manager is gaining in popularity.
For Fedora you have 2 main choices for third party packages.
One set comes from Fedora 'Extras'. These are packages that are built close with the fedora project.
The other choice is very third party developers that formed a group to support software for themselves for Fedora. This is called RPMForge and they also support other distros then just Fedora Core.
More information:
http://rpmforge.net/user/faq/
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras
http://www.fedorafaq.org/
http://www.fedoraforum.org/
For Ubuntu:
Ubuntu has a small subset of packages that it supports well that are enabled by default.
For most users you would want to add support for Multiverse and Universe package repositories to get access of packages.
Also there are some 'restricted' packages, such as the win32 codecs and Libdvdcss stuff (used to crack encryption on dvds to play them in Linux) that they can't touch but are aviable for you to use from third party repositories.
More information:
http://help.ubuntu.com/starterguide/C/faqguide-all.html#codecs
There FAQ page also has lots of information about specific programs and support (such as java, realplayer, and flash.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/
For Debian:
Debian comes in 3 main flavors based on it's development model.
You have Debian Stable, Debian Testing, and Debian Unstable.
Debian unstable has cutting edge programs aviable for you to use, but you will have large amounts of updates and sometimes big changes will cause updates to go wonky on you.
Debian Testing is were packages end up after they live in unstable long enough and have few bugs. After they have enough packages updated and few bugs testing will become the next Stable.
Debian Stable is the official Debian version suitable for professional workstations, servers, and desktops were people want stable long-term system with small updates and no breakage. However Debian Stable gets dated between revisions.
Debian's main advantage is it has a massive number of supported and tested software and dwarfs other distros. Ubuntu is based on Debian Unstable and uses repackaged packages from Debian, but does not officially support many of them. (hence the universe type thing). Many Debian developers are also Ubuntu developers and visa versa.
Debian's disavantage is that it's only realy usefull for experianced Linux users.
Debian repositories are divided up between "Main", which is officially supported;
"Contrib" and then "non-free".
Contrib and non-Free are software that is ment to run on Debian, but has legal issues for people that may need it for the basis of their own distro or may conflict with commercial/educational/government/use. Sometimes they are under a closed source license, sometimes there are legal restrictions on modificatiosn and reuse.
As a home user you generally want to enable contrib and non-free for maximum software support.
However, like Ubuntu and Fedora, Debian won't touch things like Libdvdcss and Win32 codec packages due to them being legally gray. There are third party repositories that support this software.
More information:
http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/ (also usefull for Ubuntu users)
http://newbiedoc.sourceforge.net/
http://debian.video.free.fr/ (good place for resticted formats)
http://www.debian.org/doc/ (rtfm) 😛
Malak
Lifer
Microsoft can scan my entire system every night while I'm asleep for all I care. Do you have something to hide? Then you deserve to get caught. If not, then I have a quote for you:
"Damn U.S. Government? Without our government, you'd be stuck in Siberia now, suckin' the juice from a rotten Commie potato. Lemme tell you something. If the U.S. Government decides to stick a tracking device up your ass you say "Thank you and God bless America."
Windows alternative? Pffffft! There is no such thing as a Windows alternative these days. I'm what I'd consider a pretty good Windows user (I support it for a job). I spent the past 3 nights with Ubuntu and Fedora Core 4 and I can tell you that neither is even close to Windows in ease of use and that's what counts in the real world. Until (your flavor of Linux) has the hardware/driver & program support of Windows it will remain a tweakers toy. Ubuntu detected my hardware fine but I couldn't play multimedia files. Fedora Core 4 didn't detect my wireless card properly and after several hours of failed attempts I've given up.
Put it this way... I can hand my dad a default Dell WinXP home system and it will easily do just about everything he wants. Can you say the same about (your flavor of Linux)? The answer is no. Until then, Windows rules... (or Mac if you work in graphics)
Put it this way... I can hand my dad a default Dell WinXP home system and it will easily do just about everything he wants. Can you say the same about (your flavor of Linux)? The answer is no. Until then, Windows rules... (or Mac if you work in graphics)
sourceninja
Diamond Member
I bet I could sell a prebuild system with linux on it that can do everything your dad wants to do (with the exception of using windows software, which should be a give in). I think your problem is the assumption that windows knowledge = computer knowedge. The reason you do not like linux is not because it does not work, but because you do not know how to use it.
If MS changed the way windows works (driver model, using package managment, UI, etc) you would be just as lost and hate it as well. It doesn't take a tweaker or a computer master or someone with thousands of free hours to use linux. It just takes someone willing to learn how to use linux. Once you do that everything is easy.
You've just made my point. Microsoft is not going to change the way their OS works just for that reason. They are where they are because their OS is easy to use and well supported. My point is the current install/use of Windows is *much* easier than Linux. Period. BTW, I'm posting this from Fedora Core 4. Is it easy to install? Pretty much yes. Is it as easy to install as Windows? No. Is it as easy to use as Windows? Absolutely not. Not even close. And I don't hate Linux.
If I did I wouldn't be in this forum. 😉 Search my posts. I"m frustrated but not giving up. Not just yet! 😛 😉
Again, I'm no Mac supporter. I base my previous comment on a friends who is in graphics who said that PC offerings don't compete with the Mac. Either way, this thread is about a Windows alternative and my situation doesn't involve graphics. In my experience, there's no alternative to Windows unless you want to spend more time/money.
lets talk out of the box linux h/w support versus windows.
I have a new dell. First thing I did was format XP home and move my companies pro licence to it (company laptop).
Install windows (sp2 slipstreamed)
Update windows...wait, no network drivers. Search the dell CD to see if the net drivers are there...nope. Get on another box, get the drivers downloaded, moved over installed. Not too tough, but some time
Update, reboot, update, reboot, update, join domain, reboot. Install office, reboot
now what else am I missing....
sound is crappy (crap drivers) Video isn't right, Wireless isn't working,
Off to dell.com, get drivers install, had trouble with the wireless, hit my file server (I happen to have the latest Intel Proset installer on there) and install the drivers.
Great, now I have sound, video, wireless, net, and all updates, now I activate office and windows.
Ubuntu 5.10
Install, give a little "Wahoo" when all I have to do is type the key in for my wireless to start working, run the update one time, enable multiverse/universe repos, install win32codecs and a few things, do all updates, no need to reboot
Download ATI driver, install (bit of a pain, but that's an ATI problem, they give you a "Successful install" when it's not) and spend about 30 minutes tweaking/working on it.
So, windows was missing (on default SP2 slipstreamed install)
Drivers: Sound, Video, network, wireless,
Apps: Office
reboots to get all patches applied: 3 (iirc, might have been 4)
Linux, missing drivers: Video
Missing apps: win32codecs
Reboots: None
but hey, linux has craptastic driver support and is harder to get updated stuff....
btw, I have 2 linux boxes in family houses now, where all they do is net & email. They just rave about the speed, and I sleep at night knowing they aren't going to get hammered by virii and spyware problems.
I have a new dell. First thing I did was format XP home and move my companies pro licence to it (company laptop).
Install windows (sp2 slipstreamed)
Update windows...wait, no network drivers. Search the dell CD to see if the net drivers are there...nope. Get on another box, get the drivers downloaded, moved over installed. Not too tough, but some time
Update, reboot, update, reboot, update, join domain, reboot. Install office, reboot
now what else am I missing....
sound is crappy (crap drivers) Video isn't right, Wireless isn't working,
Off to dell.com, get drivers install, had trouble with the wireless, hit my file server (I happen to have the latest Intel Proset installer on there) and install the drivers.
Great, now I have sound, video, wireless, net, and all updates, now I activate office and windows.
Ubuntu 5.10
Install, give a little "Wahoo" when all I have to do is type the key in for my wireless to start working, run the update one time, enable multiverse/universe repos, install win32codecs and a few things, do all updates, no need to reboot
Download ATI driver, install (bit of a pain, but that's an ATI problem, they give you a "Successful install" when it's not) and spend about 30 minutes tweaking/working on it.
So, windows was missing (on default SP2 slipstreamed install)
Drivers: Sound, Video, network, wireless,
Apps: Office
reboots to get all patches applied: 3 (iirc, might have been 4)
Linux, missing drivers: Video
Missing apps: win32codecs
Reboots: None
but hey, linux has craptastic driver support and is harder to get updated stuff....
btw, I have 2 linux boxes in family houses now, where all they do is net & email. They just rave about the speed, and I sleep at night knowing they aren't going to get hammered by virii and spyware problems.
no crap.
Look at it this way..
Hand your dad a default install of Windows XP and ask him to edit a excel spreadsheet.
then
Hand your dad a default install on Ubuntu and ask him to edit a excel spreadsheet.
With windows you'd find yourself quickly driving down to the store to buy a copy of MS Office, or downloading a few packages of OpenOffice.org and isntalling those.. With Ubuntu you'd double click.
Most of Windows 'ease of use' comes from people using it, and related software, for 15 years. Go check out any community college or any place that offers lots of night courses and you'll see more then a few classrooms full of people learning how to use Windows. It's not easy.
Linux sucks for a lot of stuff. But if a person can navigate a application menu it doesn't realy make much of a difference.
The biggest barrier most people have is getting it installed and working. Getting wifi working, getting sound working.
With Windows that's not a barrier for most people because it comes working pre-isntalled on your computer. Those configurations are specificly setup and tested by professionals before they even reach the hands of the end users.
The hardware is specificly choosen and designed to work with Windows. Many hardware vendors will even ship hardware that they speficifly know is broken and just put the work arounds into the Windows driver.
Those same people aren't going to announce to the world that their ASIC designs have huge flaws compared to their competitors. There is no huge market for Linux driver developers to fund all this development like Windows has...
But even then out-of-the-box the Linux kernel supports more hardware then any other operating system kernel in existance. This is including Windows 2000 and Windows XP.
Linux also supports all that hardware on all the platforms it supports...
Alpha 64bit, ARM, Cris, H8300, i386, IA64, M68k (with and without MMU), MIPS (32 and 64bit), PA-RISC, PowerPC (32 and 64bits), IBM S/390 (32 and 64bits), SH/SH64, SPARC (32 and 64bit versions), x86-64 (64bit native and ia32 modes).
Meaning that I can take that SCSI drive from that ia32 computer, upgrade to a x86-64, and then into a IBM POWER workstation... and it would all still work.
This is because it is a open source platform with open source drivers. It depends on GNU toolchain, which is designed to be ultra-portable.
This is why Linux had a stable native 64bit version for the AMD64 platform even before the first Opterons were released to public.. and this is why all the hardware that you own that is supported by open source drivers worked out of the gate.
It's also why that when I isntall Linux on my SATA drive I don't need a driver floppy either.
Linux hardware support is limited by hostile vendors.
All a hardware maker has to do is release basic docs about their hardware, probably some code, and act like they are going to stick around to maintain it and it'll more then likely get accepted into the kernel proper and it'll be supported for practically forever with no extra costs for the hardware manufacture. Certainly a lot cheaper and easier then it would be if they tried to do go it alone. That is if your driver is inside the kernel as oss software then when a person brakes your driver thru a API change it's that person's repsonability to fix your driver so that it works.
What sucks is that you have companies like ATI or Nvidia that have themselves so tied up into cross licensing, patent crap, and such that they can't even take a fart without consulting a lawyer, or you have companies like Broadcom or Conextent that seem to almost behave in a almost anti-oss manner at some points. Or companies like TI that think that since their driver works thru NDIS wrapper then it's ok.
(Which still doesn't matter because there are people reverse engineering broadcom drivers, texas instrument hardware, and have people writing oss versions of drivers for newer ATI cards anyways.. it just takes longer and the hardware support will be crap compared to people whose hardware supports linux)
edit:
Oh, Linux's support of consumer-level printers suck. That's a low point thing.
Unless it's a HP printer. Then it's pretty good. Some Epson stuff also. Better-quality-prints-then-windows often.
But Lexmark, brothers, and those type of things suck.
Edit: Your response was long and I wanted to make an immediate response but I typed too slow. 😉
You're comparing your companies WinXP install to a new(er?) Linux version. That's not fair.
The Dell would've worked out of the box. Maybe not exactly how you want but it would've worked for the average user. So you reformatted and the version you used didn't have all the current hardware drivers. I'm guessing it also included a CD that, should you reinstall WinXP from scratch would have all the necessary drivers on it.
That's my point in this thread. Linux needs to eclipse Windows to capture the desktop market. At this point, it's not even close and I'm not gloating when I say that. Just giving my opinion.
It's what it is. Linux distros generally release a new version of their OS between 6 months and a year. Last Windows desktop release was 4 years ago and the replacement isn't due out for another year.
It doesn't cost anything to install, except time and patience. It doesn't cost anything to upgrade and when your finished you can use the isntall disks or images to make as many copies as you please to give to as many people as you want.
Unless it's Redhat, then there are trademark issues. Kinda screwy.. You just have to use something like CentOS that has the same code, but has the trademarks removed.
Linux-on-the-desktop is in a catch-22 right now.
Your not going to get support for the latest hardware, software, and games right away without having significant market share.
Your not going to get market share without having support for the latest hardware, software, and games right away.
People are working on it.. but it's not enough that Linux is better then Windows, or that Linux is cheaper for Windows.
In order for Linux to succeed on the desktop it has to be ALOT better then Windows... which it isn't.
For 'hardcore' gamers it's even absolutely true that Linux is ALOT WORSE then Windows. There are some issues with sound card configuration that can be a pain and the quality of windows games running on Cedega is less then the quality of windows games running in Windows. (even though 70% or more new games work fine in Linux.. like HL2 or WOW for instance) among other things.
In a business enviroment if your using Windows software, if you depend on it, then your much better off with Windows then Linux. MS Office, Exchange, etc etc.. Microsoft stuff doesn't integrate worth a crap with anything that isn't made from Microsoft, for the most part. If you need MS stuff you need to be running Windows, unless that MS stuff is completely secondary. (stuff like VMware is usefull and Linux supports Windows "remote desktop" with along with a Windows terminal server is usefull for a lot of things)
I use it personally because of the freedom issues. I don't like rules, I like to be in control of my belongings and things around me that I own. With Windows I don't have that, with Linux I do.
Also Linux has a actually usefull command line, which I like. And the GUI is much easier to customize.. and Debian has a crapload of software aviable for it. Everything from a half dozen web browsers to a full professional-level 3d animation suite. All of it legal.
I've gotten Windows no cost, and perfectly legal also. I've gotten XP for no-cost, I have had every version of Windows 2000 server from the bottom feeder 'PRO' version to the datacenter version.. All legal and all for no cost to myself. I just don't have time to muck around with that stuff.
And comparing a carefully planned HW/SW combo, installed with the drivers and such at the factory to installing linux by yourself is no comparison. You either have to have an expert install both (A linux admin installs/configures, windows comes preinstalled) or you have to compare it with a raw, from CD install of the latest version (WinXP Sp2, Ubuntu 5.10). Otherwise, your comparison is flawed.
drag: You made a great response and I totally agree with it. That's my point here. I'm not bashing Linux. My point is Linux is a loooooong way away from replacing Windows on the desktop for the average user.
nweaver: Flawed? Um, no. I'm afraid you're being very defensive and in denial. The simple truth is Windows has far more hardware/software support and is much easier to work with. Period. To claim otherwise is simply foolish. I've spent hours trying to get my IBM T42 (not an unpopular model) Intel Pro 2200 wireless card (not an unpopular model) workiing in Fedora Core 4. It worked out of the box (I had to configure WEP) in Ubuntu and I could get it working in a couple of minutes under a Windows install. Why doesn't it work in Fedora Core 4 then? Why? Because Linux isn't standardized. *THAT* is the problem!!!!
nweaver: Flawed? Um, no. I'm afraid you're being very defensive and in denial. The simple truth is Windows has far more hardware/software support and is much easier to work with. Period. To claim otherwise is simply foolish. I've spent hours trying to get my IBM T42 (not an unpopular model) Intel Pro 2200 wireless card (not an unpopular model) workiing in Fedora Core 4. It worked out of the box (I had to configure WEP) in Ubuntu and I could get it working in a couple of minutes under a Windows install. Why doesn't it work in Fedora Core 4 then? Why? Because Linux isn't standardized. *THAT* is the problem!!!!
The T42 is linux certified, that means that is works under Suse, TurboLinux, and RHEL.
My company did the linux certified testing for IBM/Lenovo, and there were no issues with it. Just because YOU can't do it, doesn't make it hard...
And I gave an example of H/W Support. Give me an example installing windows versus a desktop install of linux that H/W support is worse on linux.
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