Win8 Exclusive DirectX 11.1

[destrekor]

Microsoft is probably not supporting windows 7 in an attempt to force users to buy Windows 8! This is a violation of their monopolistic power. On a side note, when vista was in trouble they assigned a lot of people from other departments to get the 1st support pack done for Vista. Microsoft is in trouble and they know it.

Another complaint is there is just no touchscreen hardware available except for maybe some tablets.

That's not exactly the purpose, and yet it also is some of the reason behind it; it's also not new for the Windows line at all. Not one bit.

It also doesn't matter. In the next few years, you will not see any games/visual engines developed entirely for DX11.1, to the point that they cannot be run under previous versions.

Windows XP, Windows Vista, and Windows 7 each had exclusive DirectX versions (7, not entirely, as 11 was also pushed to Vista in SP2). It also wouldn't be surprising if 11.1.1, 11.1b, 11.1.x or whatever was eventually pushed to Windows 7.
[That pushed me to research it...] Oh wait, looks like Windows 7 already got some Direct3D 11.1 code. The only issue, it's not a feature-complete 11.1 because some of it requires the base code from Windows 8.

Which, again, it is hardly a big deal. By the time any game absolutely requires 11.1, to the point that a user cannot force a lower version, Windows 9 if not Windows 10 will have been released.

Developers want to support the largest user base possible. They've only really begun to ignore the Windows XP userbase (by not developing for DirectX9.0c, either entirely or as a fallback option), though some developers have shipped recent hits entirely developed with 9.0c.
It's only really been recent that any engines force DirectX 11 (Vista, 7), but that's fitting. There should be no worry about a developer choosing not to develop for an 11 year old OS. Too much has occurred in the OS space, too many improvements, to ignore all of that just to support an ancient OS.
If anyone is still on XP, and they aren't in an Enterprise environment, it could be clearly stated they are PC gamers. They are way behind the times, and are only doing a disservice to themselves if they truly cared about modern compatibility. Not that there is anything wrong, but when developing massive game engines, you have to have a cutoff point.

In the next few years, the most you will see is more game engines forcing DirectX 11 (with no earlier fallback option). Some of these MIGHT include some 11.1 features, but will have a 11.0 fallback option. Or they won't use the 11.1 features that are exclusive to the Windows 8 framework but rather those features that can also be utilized in Windows 7.

I stand by the prediction that by the time 11.1 is absolutely required to run anything (that otherwise isn't even developed specifically for Windows 8, such as WinRT/Windows Store-based apps/micro-games), Windows 9 will already be on the market.

 

[Spjut]

I stand by the prediction that by the time 11.1 is absolutely required to run anything (that otherwise isn't even developed specifically for Windows 8, such as WinRT/Windows Store-based apps/micro-games), Windows 9 will already be on the market.

And then, DX12 will be exclusive to Win9, and we'll have a similar discussion once again

I'm just irritated that adoption to the latest DX versions are slowed down by not supporting them on older OSes.
If XP had gotten support for DX10/11, DX9 would have died alot sooner

The next-gen consoles will obviously have DX11.1 class GPUs as well, but many PC games will probably be DX11 only in order to support Vista/Win7.

Then again, if it were such a big issue for the studios, I guess we would have seen OpenGL gaining some more ground

 

[destrekor]

And then, DX12 will be exclusive to Win9, and we'll have a similar discussion once again

I'm just irritated that adoption to the latest DX versions are slowed down by not supporting them on older OSes.
If XP had gotten support for DX10/11, DX9 would have died alot sooner

The next-gen consoles will obviously have DX11.1 class GPUs as well, but many PC games will probably be DX11 only in order to support Vista/Win7.

Then again, if it were such a big issue for the studios, I guess we would have seen OpenGL gaining some more ground

Don't confuse this as slowing adoption though.

For one, those consoles can support 11.1, and the games can perfectly support all features of 11.1 for both consoles and PC, but it doesn't have to be coded exclusively to 11.1. They can support 11.0 as a fallback just fine for those installations that lack 11.1. They could even support DirectX 10, but it would be pointless imho.

The other issue that slows adoption: hardware has to support that version of DirectX. There are going to be many cases of users with the software/OS to support 11.1, but lacking the GPU support.

Getting 11.1 into Windows 8 isn't so much a "here's a new thing, going into effect today, and you old version users are missing out!" situation, but rather, a future-proofing situation. Games will take advantage of the opportunity, but will be hard-pressed to force the support of only 11.1 if they want any kind of respectable market penetration. The majority of gamers who otherwise can run the game, even with high visuals and framerate, might not be able to physically support 11.1 thanks to last-gen GPU(s).

 

[Spjut]

But how many studios will put any effort in their DX11.1 path if the majority of the userbase are on OSes that only support DX11?


IMO, what MS really did right with the DX11 API was providing backwards compatibility with DX10/10.1 hw, and porting it to Vista.

 

[lxskllr]

If Steam on Ubuntu takes off, there may be a big push for OpenGL games. MS will lose one of their last sticks to keep people on their systems, and enforcing upgrades :^D

 

[HeXen]

2) coreldraw is not an 'app'

looks like an app to me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_software
Application software, also known as an application or an app, is computer software designed to help the user to perform specific tasks
Examples include ....graphics software

http://www.corel.com/corel/product/index.jsp?pid=prod4260069&cid=catalog20038&segid=5700006
Professional Graphic Design Software

 

[djw39]

Who is it that is buying a $200 Direct X 11.1-capable GPU and refusing to spend $40 on the Windows 8 upgrade? Seems like if you are determined to have the latest hardware, and at the same time determined to run the last-gen OS, you are rather a strange cat.

 

[colonelciller]

looks like an app to me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_software
Application software, also known as an application or an app, is computer software designed to help the user to perform specific tasks
Examples include ....graphics software

http://www.corel.com/corel/product/index.jsp?pid=prod4260069&cid=catalog20038&segid=5700006
Professional Graphic Design Software

great moronic snarky point

the 'app' term gained starpower popularity with the launch of apple's 'app store' and from that point forward the label 'app' has been used as a label for every trinket gadgety installation for smartphones. like it or not, that is what'app'hasbecome. marketing depts and media personalities have taken notice of the term's popularity and are now tossing it around in a desparate attempt to look trendy and relevant.

that you do not understand this surprises me. the 'app label' has become wholly posessed by the gimmicky smartphone crapware software niche for better or worse. to then take the label as it exists today and apply it to professional softwfare is, frankly... totally clueless.

once again, great moronic point and snarky link pasting.

 

[Spjut]

Who is it that is buying a $200 Direct X 11.1-capable GPU and refusing to spend $40 on the Windows 8 upgrade? Seems like if you are determined to have the latest hardware, and at the same time determined to run the last-gen OS, you are rather a strange cat.

Because to some of us, the things forced on us in Win8 doesn't really amount to an "upgrade"

 

[pmv]

Who is it that is buying a $200 Direct X 11.1-capable GPU and refusing to spend $40 on the Windows 8 upgrade? Seems like if you are determined to have the latest hardware, and at the same time determined to run the last-gen OS, you are rather a strange cat.

People generally don't buy the latest GPUs becuase they are "DirectX 11.1 capable", they buy them for their actual, meaningful, performance advantages. And windows 8 is not an 'upgrade' for many of us, its at least equal parts downgrade (there are _some_ improvements in it, I realise, its just that they seem to be fairly minor and are, for me, cancelled out by the windows 3.1 downgrade bits - others may see the balance differently, which is fine by me).

 

[pmv]

looks like an app to me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_software
Application software, also known as an application or an app, is computer software designed to help the user to perform specific tasks
Examples include ....graphics software

http://www.corel.com/corel/product/index.jsp?pid=prod4260069&cid=catalog20038&segid=5700006
Professional Graphic Design Software

Personally I find the word 'app' irritating, Largely because I'm a bit old and associate the term with young kids who know nothing about computing or its history but are obsessed with their bloody smart-phones (while knowing absolutely nothing about the technology behind them). Regardless of what some random person wrote on wiki the reality is the term 'app' refers to fairly small applications running on smart-phones.

 

[Mem]

Who is it that is buying a $200 Direct X 11.1-capable GPU and refusing to spend $40 on the Windows 8 upgrade? Seems like if you are determined to have the latest hardware, and at the same time determined to run the last-gen OS, you are rather a strange cat.

Hehe you forgot to throw in the DX11.1 games as well down the road .


I keep making this point its like people on OS want their cake and eat it,if I was like that I would still be on DOS 6.22 demanding all the features Windows has lol...you have to move with times or get left behind and except you will be missing out on some features , if you need it then buy it,its that simple.


I'm a gamer at heart and to be honest DX11.1 is a minor update in my books,however if I wanted it then yes I would buy Win8 (I actually have Win8 for other reasons),DX11.1 card,games etc....
Win8 right now is cheaper then a lot of games,we all know gaming video card is a lot more expensive,I can understand if you don't like Win8 but don't expect to get Win8 features on older OS its that simple in my books,Microsoft can do what they want its their OS,we may not like it but its their call.

 

[destrekor]

Personally I find the word 'app' irritating, Largely because I'm a bit old and associate the term with young kids who know nothing about computing or its history but are obsessed with their bloody smart-phones (while knowing absolutely nothing about the technology behind them). Regardless of what some random person wrote on wiki the reality is the term 'app' refers to fairly small applications running on smart-phones.

You must not understand how language changes with time.
And older generations rarely have any say when society is marching past them.

They're gonna be the deciders. I'm of that generation, at 25, and have a smartphone, but I don't agree with them (or, in other words, I agree with you) - and yet, it is the way it shall be. App will come to represent any piece of software you could possibly download/install on any kind of device with an operating system.

 

[pmv]

You must not understand how language changes with time.
And older generations rarely have any say when society is marching past them.

They're gonna be the deciders. I'm of that generation, at 25, and have a smartphone, but I don't agree with them (or, in other words, I agree with you) - and yet, it is the way it shall be. App will come to represent any piece of software you could possibly download/install on any kind of device with an operating system.

You are probably correct. However, I personally will continue to be irrirtated by the 'app' word until senility makes me forget what a computer even is.

I guess this isn't solely about generation, its also about the spread of technology beyond geeks.

I still find it a source of wonder that I'm now surrounded by people with no knowledge of science or technology whatsoever - not a clue - who nevertheless have lives that seem to revolve almost entirely around the internet (especially bloody facebook!) when I remember being regarded as a weirdo oddball for owning this strange thing called a 'computer', with normal people being baffled as to why you'd want one of those!

Not to mention back in the late '80s/early '90s finding people baffled as to what the point of this "email" thing they'd heard about was 'when I've got a fax machine, isn't that the same thing?', and now that type of person will never shut up about facebook or twitter.

PS get off my lawn!
(OK I don't have a lawn, but I gather that's the sort of thing I'm supposed to say now).

 

[destrekor]

You are probably correct. However, I personally will continue to be irrirtated by the 'app' word until senility makes me forget what a computer even is.

I guess this isn't solely about generation, its also about the spread of technology beyond geeks.

I still find it a source of wonder that I'm now surrounded by people with no knowledge of science or technology whatsoever - not a clue - who nevertheless have lives that seem to revolve almost entirely around the internet (especially bloody facebook!) when I remember being regarded as a weirdo oddball for owning this strange thing called a 'computer', with normal people being baffled as to why you'd want one of those!

Not to mention back in the late '80s/early '90s finding people baffled as to what the point of this "email" thing they'd heard about was 'when I've got a fax machine, isn't that the same thing?', and now that type of person will never shut up about facebook or twitter.

PS get off my lawn!
(OK I don't have a lawn, but I gather that's the sort of thing I'm supposed to say now).

Don't worry, I share your sentiments. I'm 25 going on 80. I'm a crotchety, stubborn old man who hates just about everything - yet I'm still in great shape and have hopefully a long life ahead of me yet.

Stupid people and technology absolutely drives me nuts. For a lot of people, the internet is entirely facebook, google, and email.

Someone asked me if I was a gamer recently (because he was as well), and I said yes. He asked "PS3 or 360?" and I replied "PC - I'm a computer gamer" and his reply: "what, you play WoW?" I rolled my eyes and was said "oh hell no."

 

[Mem]

Don't worry, I share your sentiments. I'm 25 going on 80. I'm a crotchety, stubborn old man who hates just about everything - yet I'm still in great shape and have hopefully a long life ahead of me yet.

Stupid people and technology absolutely drives me nuts. For a lot of people, the internet is entirely facebook, google, and email.

Someone asked me if I was a gamer recently (because he was as well), and I said yes. He asked "PS3 or 360?" and I replied "PC - I'm a computer gamer" and his reply: "what, you play WoW?" I rolled my eyes and was said "oh hell no."

You make me feel old now(almost 50),when I was at school decades ago calculators were fairly new,my first computer was a Commodore 64,first IBM PC was using good old DOS 6, was fun getting games to work back then with right DOS commands and right amount of expanded memory etc...
I picked up everything I knew about computers myself over the years,nowadays they have it too easy .

 

[destrekor]

You make me feel old now(almost 50),when I was at school decades ago calculators were fairly new,my first computer was a Commodore 64,first IBM PC was using good old DOS 6, was fun getting games to work back then with right DOS commands and right amount of expanded memory etc...
I picked up everything I knew about computers myself over the years,nowadays they got it too easy .

While I didn't start as early, I still started PCs when they weren't especially common (more so than before, but far less than today) - 1994 with Windows 95. The next upgrade, in '97 or '98, got me more into it and I basically rebuilt the inside of that one but kept the case. Then I moved on to do everything myself.

IRQs and breaking the registry - yeah, there are some things I am definitely glad to be rid of. Well, breaking the registry is still very easy to do, but it's extremely rare one has to do anything dicey anymore. Usually, if I do anything, it's adding a new key or simply changing the value of a fairly benign one.

Thanks to the Microsoft approach, it's still fairly easy to fuck up bootloaders if you aren't paying attention. Hell, even then - but recovering boot options is pretty easy if you know what's going on.

Tinkering with that first PC - that's what got me into everything. One can get by today with basically no knowledge, which is kind of depressing, but if you like to do anything remotely interesting the foundation knowledge from yesteryear remains immensely useful.
Though I'll never get all giddy to work entirely in a CLI. The people that swear by them (especially in Unix/Unix-like systems), well.. I won't ever be one. I like my GUIs now that they can basically do everything necessary. Though I can certainly hack my way through a CLI to do most things. And know where to look for the answers if I don't.

I hold fond memories of that first Acer PC our family had (I was what... 7 at the time we got it?). While AOL was maddening, the system came with an extensive software package and included quite a few education games. I loved them. Where in the USA (not sure if I got "World" later) is Carmen Sandiego was awesome! :biggrin:

 

[VirtualLarry]

Personally I find the word 'app' irritating, Largely because I'm a bit old and associate the term with young kids who know nothing about computing or its history but are obsessed with their bloody smart-phones (while knowing absolutely nothing about the technology behind them). Regardless of what some random person wrote on wiki the reality is the term 'app' refers to fairly small applications running on smart-phones.

I think it started with the term "applet", which I believe originated with Java. Common usage shortened it to "app", and there you have it.