Will we rise up if government becomes too powerful?

[Orignal Earl]

*Voila;! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. *

 

[dmcowen674]

My taxes seem pretty normal. So does my life, actually. I think I would have noticed if the country around me had been destroyed.

I wish I was old enough to have remembered the recessions in the 70s and 80s, so I'd have a frame of reference for all this paranoid delusional doom-and-gloom garbage.

Well thanks for your honesty and candor.

You have obviously been well shielded from the real world.

I hope you remain well but look out if you should ever have to meet the real world, you clearly do not seem ready to handle it. Good luck.

 

[Craig234]

It's a distinction without difference these days as you seem to note. Who gets "hooked up" with loans, freebies, nobids, monopoly pricing, monopoly access, looking the other way (classic is cartel money laundered in largest banks and BP) is the rich and powerful. Almost all of todays 2000pp bills are grants of discretion, all you need know about them is whom they empower and dis-empower and they tilt one direction.

Tea Party seems to follow the axiom of power corrupts and wants to remove power. I'm not sure this is the way to go over informed voters and accountability but it may be since people are more concerned about American Idol than SBA loans (or lack thereof)

What is 'removing power'? There's no such thing, only moving it. And the rich would benefit most in terms of their own power the more the government is weakened.

While their influencing who is elected for government to serve them is good for them too, there's the power the people have to vote otherwise, as with FDR,for example.

But permanently weaken government and they're home free for oligarchy.

People don't know what tyranny is until that happens.

The rich would like to see government turned into a powerless ceremonial thing as far as the people's rights - it could grant honors, pass symbolic holidays, name the national bird.

But when it comes to reigning in the rich, forget it.

Look at NAFTA as a model, where it said that there's a private board to resolve any trade issues, not appointed by any elected officials, who is secret and not subject to appeal.

Governments are told that while technically their power to pass regulations can't be removed now, if they do so, they can be ordered to pay all lost profits to all companies, if the private board decided the regulation was 'unjustified'. So forget the democratic process to decide regulations, the private business community can effectively veto any if they don't like them.

It's pretty simple - stop letting the rich get government that represents them, by removing the way they mainly do it by using the money they have to decide elections.

In CA in our two statewide races, we have two billionare right-wing figures who are spending a fortune on the media to demonize their good opponents, and who are running even in a blue state when they shouldn't be (recently, Meg Whitman spent 85 to 1 over former Governor Jerry Brown in campaign ads). We threw out a good governor for Arnold Schwarzeneggar before that, because the public couldn't figure out that the old governor was the *opponent* to Enron, and Schwarzeneggar their ally.

The pick of Bush over Gore (almost) says what needs be said about the way the current system is not doing too well, but the answer isn't to weaken democratic government.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Here is one difference between business and government. Government can and does make contradictory and pointless regulations and then can take whatever money it wants from you because it can. If you were to be so foolish as to oppose it, your liberty can be taken away from you at gunpoint.

Exxon has yet to do that.

 

[hal2kilo]

*Voila;! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. *

All while viewing V for vendetta.

 

[Jaskalas]

What is 'removing power'? There's no such thing, only moving it. And the rich would benefit most in terms of their own power the more the government is weakened.

Is it so black and white for you? Rich are evil, government is good. Ergo government must obtain absolute power? So much for the Bill of Rights eh?

 

[piasabird]

What in hell is projection of self hate? Sounds like pure bullshit double speak. I guess this is your way of looking down your nose at everyone that does not think like you? Who is the one filled with hate?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I can't say I'm well versed in our governments structure or processes, but for some reason I don't really see the checks and balancing system working out.

Would American citizens actually rise up and protest the government if they start doing crazy stuff, or do you think American's are just throw pillows and will just take what is served? Some people would say that crazy stuff has been happening for years.

I think the real crazy shit is a few years off, but I don't think American's will stand up for what they believe in. I do and am ridiculed for it, not to mention how much corporations are involved with the government.

I guess I don't understand what you're getting at. What do you think the government is doing right now that is "too powerful"? It depends on what the government does. If some madman takes over and declares, "Everyone must change their underwear every 20 minutes! To make sure, we will check!", then perhaps the people would rise up.

The government has allowed American jobs to go overseas. It's imported foreigners on H-1B and L-1 visas to displace Americans. It's allowed tens of millions of immigrants into the country to displace Americans and put downward pressure on wages. It's structured its laws and policies so that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. I really don't know what more the government could do to incite people to revolt.

 

[Craig234]

Is it so black and white for you? Rich are evil, government is good. Ergo government must obtain absolute power? So much for the Bill of Rights eh?

No, it's so simple for you, misrepresenting what I said. No wonder you get is so wrong.

 

[Craig234]

Here is one difference between business and government. Government can and does make contradictory and pointless regulations and then can take whatever money it wants from you because it can. If you were to be so foolish as to oppose it, your liberty can be taken away from you at gunpoint.

Exxon has yet to do that.

Wrong, huge paranoia. Ya, extreme concentrations of wealth never impact your freedom - just ask the people in Latin American countries where a few owned all the resources, and therefore there was no 'powerful Democratic government' to challenge them, only a dictator with forces who represented the rich's and foreign interests (who paid for the security as a cost of doing business or as foreign government 'aid' to support their wealth-extracting corporations).

So if you have a country with almost everyone in poverty, hoping for work to get just enough to eat from one of the foreign companies there taking whatever the nation had at fire-sale prices, while the 'government' had little more function than to prevent any uprising among the labor, kidnapping, torturing, executing labor leaders, liberal commentators, others on the left - no problem with the concentration of private wealth.

And when in the US even the LEAST corporate presidential candidate has Goldman-Sachs as his #1 private donor (his predecessor with Enron as his when elected), no problem.

No problem with these interests, who are at odds with the public interest, determining who can be in the government - no, it's only 'the government', not who runs it.

Let's just destroy the power of the people to vote a government who can stand up to the interests for them, and get rid of the democracy, since it's not now being used well.

Just give the rich what they want - the end to any threat the people actually could elect a decent government that would keep things balanced, and go straight to oligarchy.

How do you do that? Make people hate government, period, not understanding how their vote is very important to the better standard of living and middle class we have.

As bad as the voting might be, it's worlds better than if the 'government is just bad' crowd got their way and we crippled the thing that the people elect.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Wrong, huge paranoia.

Actually I was referring to something we are dealing with in fact right now. A couple years ago we were subjected to millions in fines for such "criminal" activity as failing to note the time a prescription was called in. Now we're facing a similar situation because we can fax a prescription request to a physicians office and we (and everyone else we know of) would accept the fax back once it was signed of on. It's perfectly legal.

Well the government has decided that a doctor can fax a prescription back to us and if it's a different piece of paper it's OK for medicaid purposes. If we get the same thing we faxed although it legally qualifies as a proper order we must reduce it to writing, which could introduce error. If not then we get fined. Why? "Insufficient interaction on behalf of the patient".

There is no rule that we can't do just what we're doing. Someone decided that this is something they can fine us for.

So we get fined a few thousand for each. No big deal, eh? Well it gets better. What they do is pick some arbitrary time which is before this was ever an issue, and back fine us and multiply the percentage by all the stores in a chain and fine us for it.

There is no recourse by the way. We pay the millions or we get closed down and the government can act against our licenses if we protest. If we do not pay we can be imprisoned.

This is real and it's happening now (again).

So tell me again how any business can do this?

 

[alkemyst]

IMHO the problem is those most vocal are the least to know what's really going on.

 

[feralkid]

As long as Americans get their food stamps, welfare, section 8, free cell phones, free health care, Social security checks, gas / electrical bills paid for and enjoy a Burger King whopper every week. HELL NO... And what do these people do for their free shit? Just sit around all day. DOING NOTHING.... Selling their food stamps for drugs and high on Prozac and what ever else they can get for free.

Answer is NO.

You have it all figgered out.

 

[Onceler]

It's already doing some crazy stuff and the couch potatoes will do nothing about it.

 

[alkemyst]

To me the biggest proof we have given up is the Patriot Act.

 

[sandorski]

Video link

Somewhat related to topic. If the guy is right, you won't have to worry about this in 5 years or so. I think he's wrong/too pessimistic, but he offers some interesting insight into the the possible aftermath of a complete collapse.

 

[sunzt]

I got my pitchfork ready, lets do this!

 

[Modelworks]

It will take a lot for people to actually take to the streets. As long as they have food, somewhere to live and reality tv shows to watch they will complain about the news then 10 seconds later they forget about it

 

[Jaskalas]

No, it's so simple for you, misrepresenting what I said. No wonder you get is so wrong.

I have it wrong?

Government is supposed to PROTECT you from business.

Government is not supposed to become the business itself. Yet you have it grown and expanded performing all these various actions in which it has conflicts of interest and sides with itself and abuses its position over the people.

Our watch dog has become the wolf, because you've given it the power to do so. The people are no longer protected.

 

[bamacre]

I have it wrong?

Government is supposed to PROTECT you from business.

Government is not supposed to become the business itself. Yet you have it grown and expanded performing all these various actions in which it has conflicts of interest and sides with itself and abuses its position over the people.

Our watch dog has become the wolf, because you've given it the power to do so. The people are no longer protected.

Craig believes giving up economic liberty for economic security is a good idea. If we don't have economic security by now, it's obvious to him we just haven't given up enough economic liberty yet.

 

[Moonbeam]

Craig believes giving up economic liberty for economic security is a good idea. If we don't have economic security by now, it's obvious to him we just haven't given up enough economic liberty yet.

Did you by any chance notice what just happened to the economy when bankers had economic freedom and invented bundles of worthless mortgages that could be sold internationally as securities? Given enough economic freedom swine will eat the farm.

 

[bamacre]

Did you by any chance notice what just happened to the economy when bankers had economic freedom and invented bundles of worthless mortgages that could be sold internationally as securities? Given enough economic freedom swine will eat the farm.

I noticed the lack of economic freedom, you noticed only the little bit left and say it was too much? I'm not shocked. You suppose the corporate-owned government can tame corporate America?

 

[MotF Bane]

I noticed the lack of economic freedom, you noticed only the little bit left and say it was too much? I'm not shocked. You suppose the corporate-owned government can tame corporate America?

Freedom has become a scary thought.

 

[holden j caufield]

I have faith in most Americans that we'll push back if/when the time comes. It's a ways off, but I've said to my family and friends that I truly believe a revolutionary uprising will occur in my lifetime or my kids lifetimes. Of course I don't wish this to happen for everyone's sake..

I used to think this kind of insight was nonsense, but I can see why you think this. It appears the masses are getting fed up and are possibly preparing for something. Some months ago I was shopping for ammo, it was sold out everywhere which is absurd as it was going for 3x what it was 1 year ago? Gold was going up like crazy like people thought the dollars was worthless. Once the people get a clue and realize just how corrupt, wasteful and what a shame the economic system is something is going to happen.

Problem is a rising up 300 years ago was a little easier than now. Once all the eyes in the sky are in place it'd be very hard to be effective.

 

[vi edit]

I'm about ready to go door to door in my neighboorhod and round people up for an old fashioned bill burning party at the county assessors office. Property taxes have gone up almost $5000 *per house* in the last 4 years. Property taxes are $10,000-$14,000 a year for us. In rural Illinois.