Will the orgy of Anti-Clinton hate and invective backfire?

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: aidanjm
I read the other day that she was voted most admired women in the USA for the past 6 years running. so there must be plenty of people in your country who admire her, along with the haters.

And Bush tends to win as most admired man too, as does any sitting President. Doesn't really prove a whole lot.

I think that about kills that arguement

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: techs
Wow. As much as people hate George Bush for what he has done as President, the Anti-Clinton crowd makes them look like sissies!.
Have you ever, ever seen such hatred, lies, innuendo against someone who has only been a short term Senator?
In fact, the only Democrat I can think of who was so hated, villified and smeared by the Republicans was Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

Please get help. It's absolutely fascinating to me that some of the very same people who were so critical of the blind, irrational support of the Bush faithful are equally and oppositely delusional in their support of Hillary Clinton. Wake up and spell the donkey shit for crying out loud. H.Clinton isn't the worst person who's ever run for President, but she is certainly a mediocre candidate. More importantly, she is the epitome of the partisan D.C. insider, the exact thing so many of you railed against for the last few years, and she is the one Democratic candidate most likely to lose in November.

You see this clearly -- "the only Democrat I can think of who was so hated, villified and smeared" -- yet your cognitive dissonance refuses to acknowledge the implications, even as your nose is rubbed in it dozens of times per day. You rationalize that it is "the Republicans" who oppose Clinton, even though anyone who is at all objective can see her opposition cuts across party and ideological boundaries. Yes, lots of Republicans loathe her, but so do many independents and a fair number of Democrats. She is divisive. She is polarizing. She is in too many ways GWB's doppelganger. That's not what America needs.

I'll certainly grant you Clinton is far more intelligent and capable than Bush. (Who isn't?) That's not enough in my book. The Dems have an exceptional opportunity to raise the bar this year. They have fielded several smart and capable candidates this year; Clinton is the only one that carries so much negative baggage. Unfortunately, there are too many like you who want to pay back the Republicans with the same bitter, small-minded partisanship that has ruled D.C. of late. You are turning your back on great candidates who could really pull America up just so you can stick one to the right. It's sad, it's destructive, and it very likely will result in you getting your asses kicked once again come November.

With that said, I don't suggest anybody base their vote on who they think can win. If you truly feel H.Clinton is the best candidate, then vote you conscience and let the chips fall where they may. If the Republicans nominate an equally deficient candidate, maybe we can finally raise serious interest in third parties. None of them have a chance of winning in 2008, of course, but if we can start changing the presumption that third parties aren't viable, maybe in a few more elections we can put this destructive two party system behind us. Americans will never be represented well as long as it controls our government.



Anyone who's been around P&N knows I'm hardly a right-winger. Indeed, I've regularly been called things like "commie-lib" by dimwits here who never could grasp the difference between anti-Bush and liberal. Here's your chance to show you're smarter than they are, because I'll tell you right now I won't be voting for Hillary Clinton. While I don't find her repugnant, I also don't find her to be a good choice to lead this country. We'll see who the Republicans nominate, but if the Dems go with Clinton, I will likely vote for a third-party candidate.

You can hop on the short bus too by dismissing me as a "Republican", or you can open your mind and recognize there are a lot of other independents and even Democrats who have similar reservations. The choice is yours. You don't have to agree with me about her, but you're deluding yourself if you dismiss all the anti-Clinton criticism as being "smeared by the Republicans."

(And for the record, I don't think we've seen the Republican smears start yet, not really. They'll hold their big guns until the primaries are over and more people are watching the main event. Anything they do now will be forgotten by November. As I said several months ago, if the Dems do run Clinton, the Republican slime machine will have 51% of voters convinced she aborts babies for her lunch and is the love spawn of Hitler and Satan. Just watch.)

Maybe its a sign that Hillary is going to be a great President.

I wanted to comment on this separately because it's a great example of just how irrational you've become. You compare H.Clinton to GWB in noting both are widely despised, yet you then somehow suggest this indicates Clinton may be a great President. Really? By that (il)logic, I guess you must believe Bush is a great President, right? Indeed, that must be why you despise Bush yourself, because he's such a great President. Right? Or maybe, just maybe, it's because Bush's opponents recognize just how bad he is for America ... and Clinton's opponents recognize comparable flaws in her. Maybe? Something to think about if you can find a moment of lucidity.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: aidanjm
I read the other day that she was voted most admired women in the USA for the past 6 years running. so there must be plenty of people in your country who admire her, along with the haters.

And Bush tends to win as most admired man too, as does any sitting President. Doesn't really prove a whole lot.

I think that about kills that arguement

I suppose Bush is living proof that a highly polarising candidate can still win the presidency

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Strangely the Republicans themselves aren?t saying much. All this anti-Clinton stuff you are seeing is come from the media and even fellow Democrats.

Wait until the fall and then you will REALLY see the anti-Clinton stuff start to fly.

Exactly. One of the few things PJ and I agree on.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Maybe, but do we really want base our elections on it? Shouldn't it be on things like issues, trust, competence, etc than voting for a woman because she is a woman or a black man because he is black or a mormon because he is mormon?

Hey! That's just crazy talk.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: aidanjm
I read the other day that she was voted most admired women in the USA for the past 6 years running. so there must be plenty of people in your country who admire her, along with the haters.

And Bush tends to win as most admired man too, as does any sitting President. Doesn't really prove a whole lot.

I think that about kills that arguement

I suppose Bush is living proof that a highly polarising candidate can still win the presidency

that may be (and probably is) true given the right set of candidates, but is that really what the standard should be for an elected official? I don't think division is really good for a government or country, especially the type that the clinton's and hillary in particular seem to have.

On a side note, i would say that bush is no longer polarizing since its the consensus that he sucks.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Bowfinger...excellent post to Techs....well said. :thumbsup:

 

[StageLeft]

She does a good job of being hated, not necessarily all her fault, I'm sure. I know republicans who started to sweat blood years ago before she was even running at the mere thought of her running. You could smell the fear, they were petrified of the thought (they were bush lovers, though, so wtf do they know?).

For the record, I still don't want her as pres. Go Obama

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: chucky2
...it's just that Hillary is so transperant (like Romney and Edwards) and Obama is so much not so that really it's like talking about something everyone already knows

I wish you haters would stop with the subtle race references

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Strangely the Republicans themselves aren?t saying much. All this anti-Clinton stuff you are seeing is come from the media and even fellow Democrats.

Wait until the fall and then you will REALLY see the anti-Clinton stuff start to fly.

Exactly. One of the few things PJ and I agree on.

I guess you both missed the Rep debate last night where "Hillary" was just about every other word out of everyone's mouth. And it wasn't complimentary. I don't think I heard Obama or any other Dem even mentioned.

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Originally posted by: techs
Wow. As much as people hate George Bush for what he has done as President, the Anti-Clinton crowd makes them look like sissies!.
Have you ever, ever seen such hatred, lies, innuendo against someone who has only been a short term Senator?
In fact, the only Democrat I can think of who was so hated, villified and smeared by the Republicans was Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
Maybe its a sign that Hillary is going to be a great President.

You back up your assertions so very well, and with so many varied examples.

Techs knows as much about politics as I know about working on a nuclear reactor. It's why all of his threads are failures and whenever he's called on to make a VALID point he disappears to make another thread he can't backup.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Strangely the Republicans themselves aren?t saying much. All this anti-Clinton stuff you are seeing is come from the media and even fellow Democrats.

Wait until the fall and then you will REALLY see the anti-Clinton stuff start to fly.

Exactly. One of the few things PJ and I agree on.

I guess you both missed the Rep debate last night where "Hillary" was just about every other word out of everyone's mouth. And it wasn't complimentary. I don't think I heard Obama or any other Dem even mentioned.

That's true, I suspect they would much rather run against either Edwards or Obama in the general. Edwards was decidedly spanked in the V.P. debates by Dick, and doesn't seem any more capable of being successful where he failed before. Obama seems to fumble for the appropriate, well calculated, response, too often, during the debates. It gives him the appearance of being flustered, confused.

Hillary seems more natural in the verbal combat arena, and has a feel for when to use the "traditional gender role" effectively i.e. the crying card was a great one time use, ace up the sleeve. She may turn rageful/angry at some point, and play it as the PMS card, who knows? My point is that she is polarizing, but her political machine is also the most savvy, much like G.W.B.

As to the OP's comments, I will say this, it is starting to have that "Anybody but Bush" feel about it, and we all saw how well that worked.

 

[bl4ckfl4g]

Originally posted by: techs
Wow. As much as people hate George Bush for what he has done as President, the Anti-Clinton crowd makes them look like sissies!.
Have you ever, ever seen such hatred, lies, innuendo against someone who has only been a short term Senator?
In fact, the only Democrat I can think of who was so hated, villified and smeared by the Republicans was Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
Maybe its a sign that Hillary is going to be a great President.

There was a time I would have gladly voted for her if Obama didn't get the nom. That time has passed. That time passed after she started lying and smearing.

I think you will find I am not the only one.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: senseamp
Yeah, it's gonna backfire, especially with women.

it's interesting, it seems to be mostly men who hate her. you don't hear of many women who have that crazy, incoherent rage towards Hillary. which makes you wonder if much of the hatred is motivated by sexism. someone needs to do a psychological study on the men who hate Hillary. Why do they hate her so much? Glorian Steinam raised one possibility in her ny times essay:

"children are still raised mostly by women (to put it mildly) so men especially tend to feel they are regressing to childhood when dealing with a powerful woman.."

could it possibly be that women are supporting hillary in spite of her failings simply because she is a woman? Bias and bigotry is a two way street, and women are more than capable of it.

I thought it was because there's no men on this forum, not some pseudo-Freudian psychobabble.

Bowfinger, great post :thumbsup:

I don't hate Hillary, I already voted for her for President back in '92 and '96.

edit: and in the same line, we should ask the Hillarybots, why do they hate Obama? It's the same thing really. Not being for someone does not make you against them. This isn't a black-and-white world, even if Washington has been pretending it is for the past many years. That Hillary represents that same partisan mindset, that "if you're not with me 100% then you must be my enemy" thinking, typified EXACTLY by the OP, is exactly why we don't want her in office.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: bl4ckfl4g

Originally posted by: techs
Wow. As much as people hate George Bush for what he has done as President, the Anti-Clinton crowd makes them look like sissies!.
Have you ever, ever seen such hatred, lies, innuendo against someone who has only been a short term Senator?
In fact, the only Democrat I can think of who was so hated, villified and smeared by the Republicans was Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
Maybe its a sign that Hillary is going to be a great President.

There was a time I would have gladly voted for her if Obama didn't get the nom. That time has passed. That time passed after she started lying and smearing.

I think you will find I am not the only one.

I feel the exact same way about Obama. I'd rather vote for McCain than him.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: bl4ckfl4g

Originally posted by: techs
Wow. As much as people hate George Bush for what he has done as President, the Anti-Clinton crowd makes them look like sissies!.
Have you ever, ever seen such hatred, lies, innuendo against someone who has only been a short term Senator?
In fact, the only Democrat I can think of who was so hated, villified and smeared by the Republicans was Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
Maybe its a sign that Hillary is going to be a great President.

There was a time I would have gladly voted for her if Obama didn't get the nom. That time has passed. That time passed after she started lying and smearing.

I think you will find I am not the only one.

I feel the exact same way about Obama. I'd rather vote for McCain than him.

Quoted for sig-worthiness

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: bl4ckfl4g

Originally posted by: techs
Wow. As much as people hate George Bush for what he has done as President, the Anti-Clinton crowd makes them look like sissies!.
Have you ever, ever seen such hatred, lies, innuendo against someone who has only been a short term Senator?
In fact, the only Democrat I can think of who was so hated, villified and smeared by the Republicans was Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
Maybe its a sign that Hillary is going to be a great President.

There was a time I would have gladly voted for her if Obama didn't get the nom. That time has passed. That time passed after she started lying and smearing.

I think you will find I am not the only one.

I feel the exact same way about Obama. I'd rather vote for McCain than him.

Quoted for sig-worthiness

At least with McCain we can still blame the Republicans for all the problems while still having a liberal president
Obama on the other hand thinks that GOP was the party of ideas in the 90s, sounds like a McCain endorsement to me

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: aidanjm
I read the other day that she was voted most admired women in the USA for the past 6 years running. so there must be plenty of people in your country who admire her, along with the haters.

And Bush tends to win as most admired man too, as does any sitting President. Doesn't really prove a whole lot.

:laugh:

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I feel the exact same way about Obama. I'd rather vote for McCain than him.

Oh bullsh*t. You'd vote for a retarded seamonkey if it had a (D) in front of its name!

I'd bet a year's salary that you'll vote for Obama if/when he gets the nomination.

People might begin to take you seriously if you weren't so full of sh*t all the time.

bah...

 

[maverick44]

At least with McCain we can still blame the Republicans for all the problems while still having a liberal president

Wow just wow....

This just shows that some people just want entertainment more than a serious president. I can imagine now why you LOVE hillary so much... I mean all the sex scandals and drama from the 90's will come tumbling down primetime if she gets elected.

It will be like everytime you turn on the T.V you'll have an episode of Dr Phil running on every news channel... 24X7

I can only assume that some people would probably be able to jack off to that..me I'll probably move to Mexico or Canada

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: senseamp
I feel the exact same way about Obama. I'd rather vote for McCain than him.

Oh bullsh*t. You'd vote for a retarded seamonkey if it had a (D) in front of its name!

I'd bet a year's salary that you'll vote for Obama if/when he gets the nomination.

People might begin to take you seriously if you weren't so full of sh*t all the time.

bah...

I will take your salary. Start saving. I voted for Arnold for governor. McCain is the Schwarzenegger of the general election. A centrist/liberal Republican. This is where I get to eat my cake and have it too.
McCain is a deficit hawk who will balance the budget, which I want, but we'll get to blame the Republicans for all the problems, and he'll take the heat for raising taxes.
Obama will just whine and give speeches for 4 years. No thanks.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: bl4ckfl4g

Originally posted by: techs
Wow. As much as people hate George Bush for what he has done as President, the Anti-Clinton crowd makes them look like sissies!.
Have you ever, ever seen such hatred, lies, innuendo against someone who has only been a short term Senator?
In fact, the only Democrat I can think of who was so hated, villified and smeared by the Republicans was Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
Maybe its a sign that Hillary is going to be a great President.

There was a time I would have gladly voted for her if Obama didn't get the nom. That time has passed. That time passed after she started lying and smearing.

I think you will find I am not the only one.

I feel the exact same way about Obama. I'd rather vote for McCain than him.

Quoted for sig-worthiness

At least with McCain we can still blame the Republicans for all the problems while still having a liberal president
Obama on the other hand thinks that GOP was the party of ideas in the 90s, sounds like a McCain endorsement to me

sigh... your trolling just gets worse and worse...

McCain is not a liberal in any sense of the word (but then neither are you).

I am quite convinced that being able to continue blaming the Republicans for all problems is your primary agenda. Creating and implementing solutions is hard, and you're clearly not up for that task. It's much simpler for you to pretend that the solutions are easy and only the pure evil of Republicans stands in America's way. :roll:

Anyone who has a brain at could read Obama's speech and see that he was trying to tell the Dems that there was a reason that Reagan was able to reach out to America and win the Presidency by those huge landslide elections. That it is possible -- especially at this moment in time -- to unite America behind the Democratic agenda.

But then who would the hacks like you left have to blame?

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Vic
sigh... your trolling just gets worse and worse...

McCain is not a liberal in any sense of the word (but then neither are you).

He voted against the Bush tax cuts, against torture, etc

I am quite convinced that being able to continue blaming the Republicans for all problems is your primary agenda. Creating and implementing solutions is hard, and you're clearly not up for that task. It's much simpler for you to pretend that the solutions are easy and only the pure evil of Republicans stands in America's way. :roll:

OK, I admit, I am a cynic. But I am also right. The best way to go is to get the opposition party to do your bidding for you. It's a Nixon to China kind of thing

Anyone who has a brain at could read Obama's speech and see that he was trying to tell the Dems that there was a reason that Reagan was able to reach out to America and win the Presidency by those huge landslide elections. That it is possible -- especially at this moment in time -- to unite America behind the Democratic agenda.
But then who would the hacks like you left have to blame?

Anyone with a brain can see that Obama is an empty speech giving suit. A negative head count, so to speak.

 

[Genx87]

Vic: People like Senseamp dont want a unified democratic controlled govt anymore than somebody like I do. Except our reasons are different. I view a one party govt as a spring board to dicatorship. He views it as the inability to scapegoat his percieved enemy(republicans) during his life of endless of crisis.

Which one is more valid in the real world? Which one is a product of ones imagination and inner desires?

 

[Genx87]

He voted against the Bush tax cuts, against torture, etc

How is this a left vs right issue? I am a conservative but think this latest stimulus package is bunk. Being against torture is not a universal liberal stance, no matter how much you try to paint it as one.