Unfortunately, you haven't offered a way for me to "find the truth". Keep in mind there are plenty of religions out there, and no one has explained why I, a logical person with no belief as of this moment, should begin to believe. What makes your truth better than that of Islam, Judaism, etc.? And how could I possibly accept a savior in whom I don't believe? It would be like accepting the tooth fairy as my personal savior.
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Will science ever wipe out organized religion?
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Unfortunately, you haven't offered a way for me to "find the truth". Keep in mind there are plenty of religions out there, and no one has explained why I, a logical person with no belief as of this moment, should begin to believe. What makes your truth better than that of Islam, Judaism, etc.? And how could I possibly accept a savior in whom I don't believe? It would be like accepting the tooth fairy as my personal savior.
There is no benefit if you do not believe. The only prayer of an unsaved person that God will hear is "Lord, please save me", and He will hear that prayer only if you pray so with a broken and genuine heart, with sincerity and humility. Prayer isn't a hotline to a magic genie who will grant you wishes, it is a means of intimate communication between God and His children (those who He has saved who have the Holy Spirit within them). If you are living in rebellion against God, and you are if you have not repented of sin and received salvation, why should or would He heed your prayer? First you must be saved, then you can speak to God in the intimate fashion that is prayer, but even then you don't have the audacity to ask for selfish things ("God, give me some money this month so I can pay my rent! Give me a new car!"). Just like a good father won't give his child everything he/she asks for, so the heavenly Father won't give His child everything he/she asks for, but that which is good. Making petitions of God is not the main focus of prayer, anyways. The main focus should be on praising God for who He is, thanking God for what He has done and continues to do, and asking that your will may be conformed to His, because He knows what is best, and His will and plan are perfect and beyond human knowledge ("His thoughts are greater than our thoughts, and His ways are greater than our ways").Originally posted by: Crono
You could read the Bible a million times over, but if you don't believe that everything it says is true and from God, you won't receive the true benefit. Even Gandhi read the New Testament (more so than even than many today who claim to be Christians), and did gain a surface insight, but he never received the true joy or knowledge that comes from the infinite depth that is the Word of God.Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Okay... but why should I do these things instead of studying the Quran, the Torah, etc.? Also, if faith comes from hearing, why hasn't it come to me? I have heard plenty of the words of Christ, and read the entire Bible several times when I was in the military. Don't snow me with "those who have ears will hear" etc.-- I studied the words.
[q/]
Here's a technical question: what's the value of praying to a god in whom I don't believe? I'm not worried about blasphemy, obviously-- just wondering how that can possibly work. Because I've done it, and it didn't work.
It can't serve as proof, unless you believe. To those who believe, the Word is Truth, and it serves as a testimony to what God has said. In those who are willing to relinquish selfish pride, and have their "eyes and ears" of the heart open to receive the Word of God, the Word can bring a person to the point of salvation. Perhaps that is tealk's hope; it is definitely mine 🙂The first section is purely words from the Bible, or conclusive statements. For someone who doesn't believe yet, how can these serve as proof?
[/quote]I appreciate your time, honestly. I am trying to do two things: help you understand that your statement before about us all going to hell was fairly sanctimonious, since we nonbelievers really can't be faulted for our nonbelief; and get your honest perspective on why I should rationally strive for belief, in the absence of belief. This latter bootstrapping problem fascinates me, because it almost always seems like the faithful of all religions cannot even grasp that some people deal with these things logically (and that logic is all we have in the absence of faith).
Those who reject God can be and will be judged, not for not believing, but for sin. God forgives sin by the gift of salvation, but if you are unwilling (out of your pride) to accept this gift, how can you be saved from sin? If you hear the truth, and choose not to believe it, you are responsible to God. You have no excuse. Every person knows in his/her heart that he/she is a sinner, and every person knows (because all of creation testifies to it, just as the Lord says) that there is a God. I can cover my eyes with my hand and say I don't believe in LCD screens, but that doesn't mean it's true; there is one right in front of my face, and whether I ignore it or not or deny it's existence, it's still there. The real reason people say "there is no God", or follow false gods, is that they do not want to be accountable to Him. People would rather try and "earn" salvation through works (but only God can save), or just "eat, drink, and be merry" for this short time that we call life, than come face to face with the reality that there is a God, the God of the Bible, and in the end He will judge each person according to his/her works. Those who He has saved will be with Him in paradise; and all those who have rejected Him will be cast out of the kingdom away from God, and will remain in the outer darkness for all eternity.
Logic is good, and indeed logic is from God. But when you pervert logic, and reject the need for faith in God, that is when you will run into serious trouble.[/quote]
I haven't rejected anything-- it just doesn't occur to me, a non-believer, that belief in god is necessary. It's not a rejection by logic, but a lack of faith. There's no way to have faith when you don't have it. I'm open to any logical argument as to why I should believe as you believe. It's good that you realize that prayer won't help a non-believer, which is absolutely true... so what will? I cannot accept a savior in whom I don't believe.
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: UnixFreak
I believe in God, and am willing to admit I have no evidence he exists. My belief is based on faith, which is based on much introspective thought on why things are the way they are and how they are created. Simply put: I dont think this world created itself. Not very logical or scientific, but I don't care.
I also believe we as humans don't have the first clue as to how it all works, and never will. I also think that most religions likely have it way off also. So Science may prove a lot of things wrong that were written in the bible, but there is no way science will ever prove there is no god, and nobody will ever be able to prove their is a god.
But people will argue about it till the end of days. I choose not to get into it most of the time. I can see both sides honestly.
All Hail the Science IDOL!
The arrogance of man is limitless. Your decision not to argue about it shows the one thing that Gasbags such as Vic and 600sux don't have and that a lot of overeducated know-it-all types suffer with out is WISEDOM.
😉
Yes, it is fair to say I have no WISEDOM. 😉
Originally posted by: Crono
You are closer to the Kingdom of God by acknowledging that truth.Originally posted by: UnixFreak
I believe in God, and am willing to admit I have no evidence he exists. My belief is based on faith, which is based on much introspective thought on why things are the way they are and how they are created. Simply put: I dont think this world created itself. Not very logical or scientific, but I don't care.
Unless he's not, and it's not the truth... UnixFreak indicates a gut feeling, not an acknowledgement of something he knows is true.
The difference between religions and the Truth of the Bible, is that all religions teach that, through some type of works or work, man can be saved. Christ taught, and so does the entirety of the Bible, that it is only God who can save man from sin and death. All the religions of this world have come from demons, who wish to see as many people as possible fall into false doctrines and lies. There is only One way to salvation, as Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life."
I'd like to believe you, but most other religions say that yours is false. Who to believe, and why?
Originally posted by: MysteryLeo
I don't see religion ever being wiped out, because religion offers people hope in desperate times.
I agree wholeheartedly. Religiousness, as prevalent as it is in the US, is more prevalent in poorer countries. It also tends to be correlated with a lower level of education and/or income in general. This is NOT intended to be a slur or a statement about the truth of religions.
Originally posted by: tealk
You are actually 100% wrong.....Christians as a whole in the US, make up the most Christians in the world. % of christians in the US. Also why we are blessed so much by God.
Is that aimed at me? 😕 Because data on the Catholic Church alone indicates that world population of Catholics is more than double the entire US population. Unless you are about to claim that Catholics aren't Christian...
Originally posted by: tealk
Can't argue with you if you dont open your heart up sincerly....it cannot be proven to you. You will never understand. You just awsnered your own question, and repeated what Crono said before.
I'm not arguing, just asking. My heart is open, sincerely. If God is real I want to believe. Right now, I don't. I didn't just answer my own questions, and I'm waiting for answers.
1) How can I possibly begin to believe in something without belief? For instance, how can I believe in a supernatural savior that seems to be fictional?
2) How can I accept a savior that seems to be fictional?
3) Why should I believe in the Christian religion instead of other ones, each of which claims to be the one true religion?
The Word of God
The Bible, consisting of the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments, alone is the Word of God, fully inspired and without error in the original manuscripts, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and having supreme authority in all matters of faith and life.
The Trinity
There is One living and true God, eternally existing in three Persons. They are equal in every divine perfection and They execute distinct but harmonious offices in the work of creation, providence and redemption.
God the Father
God the Father is the infinite, eternal and almighty personal Spirit, perfect in holiness, wisdom, power and love, and is the first Person of the Trinity. He concerns Himself mercifully in the affairs of people, He hears and answers prayers, and He saves from sin and death all who come to Him in repentance and faith through Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is God's only begotten Son, was conceived by the Holy Spirit and is the second Person of the Trinity. He was miraculously born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and performed miracles. We affirm His incarnation, teachings, substitutionary atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, perpetual intercession for His people, and His personal, visible return to earth. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God the Father and humanity.
The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity and is sent from the Father and Son to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment, and to regenerate, sanctify and empower all who believe in Jesus Christ. At the moment of salvation the Holy Spirit, as the abiding Helper, Teacher and Guide, indwells every believer in Christ and endows each believer with spiritual gifts for ministry to the family of God and the world.
Salvation
The central purpose of God's revelation in the Bible is to call all people into awareness of their sin, the availability of God's marvelous grace, and the need for repentance and faith that results in complete forgiveness and fellowship with God. All people are sinners by nature and by choice and are, therefore, under the judgment of God. Those who call on the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness, believe in His resurrection and receive Him as their Savior are granted salvation, forgiveness of their sin and are regenerated by the Holy Spirit into a new life in Christ. This act of salvation is based solely on the grace and mercy of God, and is not the result of human deeds or goodness.
Future Destiny
The Lord Jesus Christ will come again to earth, personally and visibly, to establish His kingdom and fulfill God's eternal plan for creation. Death seals the eternal destiny of each person. For each person, there will be a resurrection of the body, the final judgment before God, the eternal bliss in heaven for those who are in Christ Jesus, and the endless suffering in hell for those who have not received salvation.
The Bible, consisting of the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments, alone is the Word of God, fully inspired and without error in the original manuscripts, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and having supreme authority in all matters of faith and life.
The Trinity
There is One living and true God, eternally existing in three Persons. They are equal in every divine perfection and They execute distinct but harmonious offices in the work of creation, providence and redemption.
God the Father
God the Father is the infinite, eternal and almighty personal Spirit, perfect in holiness, wisdom, power and love, and is the first Person of the Trinity. He concerns Himself mercifully in the affairs of people, He hears and answers prayers, and He saves from sin and death all who come to Him in repentance and faith through Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is God's only begotten Son, was conceived by the Holy Spirit and is the second Person of the Trinity. He was miraculously born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and performed miracles. We affirm His incarnation, teachings, substitutionary atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, perpetual intercession for His people, and His personal, visible return to earth. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God the Father and humanity.
The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity and is sent from the Father and Son to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment, and to regenerate, sanctify and empower all who believe in Jesus Christ. At the moment of salvation the Holy Spirit, as the abiding Helper, Teacher and Guide, indwells every believer in Christ and endows each believer with spiritual gifts for ministry to the family of God and the world.
Salvation
The central purpose of God's revelation in the Bible is to call all people into awareness of their sin, the availability of God's marvelous grace, and the need for repentance and faith that results in complete forgiveness and fellowship with God. All people are sinners by nature and by choice and are, therefore, under the judgment of God. Those who call on the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness, believe in His resurrection and receive Him as their Savior are granted salvation, forgiveness of their sin and are regenerated by the Holy Spirit into a new life in Christ. This act of salvation is based solely on the grace and mercy of God, and is not the result of human deeds or goodness.
Future Destiny
The Lord Jesus Christ will come again to earth, personally and visibly, to establish His kingdom and fulfill God's eternal plan for creation. Death seals the eternal destiny of each person. For each person, there will be a resurrection of the body, the final judgment before God, the eternal bliss in heaven for those who are in Christ Jesus, and the endless suffering in hell for those who have not received salvation.
Originally posted by: tealk
6000sux...Im not going to answer you whe nit was asnwered previsouly...for the last time....read on page 20 on this thread..Crono explained it all. Good Day
No, no answers were given to my questions. You are evading answering my very simple and direct questions. You are leaving me without a basis for belief.
Originally posted by: tealk
The Word of God
The Bible, consisting of the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments, alone is the Word of God, fully inspired and without error in the original manuscripts, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and having supreme authority in all matters of faith and life.
How can I believe this in the face of all the other religions saying their word is the one true word?
Originally posted by: tealk
The Trinity
There is One living and true God, eternally existing in three Persons. They are equal in every divine perfection and They execute distinct but harmonious offices in the work of creation, providence and redemption.
Am I supposed to just take your word for it? Again, why should a non-believer believe this? How could they? I'm not mocking, I really want to know.
Originally posted by: tealk
God the Father
God the Father is the infinite, eternal and almighty personal Spirit, perfect in holiness, wisdom, power and love, and is the first Person of the Trinity. He concerns Himself mercifully in the affairs of people, He hears and answers prayers, and He saves from sin and death all who come to Him in repentance and faith through Jesus Christ.
You are just making conclusive statements. If I walked around believing everything I hear, I would just as soon join a cult.
Originally posted by: tealk
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is God's only begotten Son, was conceived by the Holy Spirit and is the second Person of the Trinity. He was miraculously born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and performed miracles. We affirm His incarnation, teachings, substitutionary atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, perpetual intercession for His people, and His personal, visible return to earth. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God the Father and humanity.
Again, this text alone cannot be the basis of belief. Not mocking you, but you must realize this.
[/quote]Originally posted by: tealk
The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity and is sent from the Father and Son to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment, and to regenerate, sanctify and empower all who believe in Jesus Christ. At the moment of salvation the Holy Spirit, as the abiding Helper, Teacher and Guide, indwells every believer in Christ and endows each believer with spiritual gifts for ministry to the family of God and the world.
Salvation
The central purpose of God's revelation in the Bible is to call all people into awareness of their sin, the availability of God's marvelous grace, and the need for repentance and faith that results in complete forgiveness and fellowship with God. All people are sinners by nature and by choice and are, therefore, under the judgment of God. Those who call on the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness, believe in His resurrection and receive Him as their Savior are granted salvation, forgiveness of their sin and are regenerated by the Holy Spirit into a new life in Christ. This act of salvation is based solely on the grace and mercy of God, and is not the result of human deeds or goodness.
Future Destiny
The Lord Jesus Christ will come again to earth, personally and visibly, to establish His kingdom and fulfill God's eternal plan for creation. Death seals the eternal destiny of each person. For each person, there will be a resurrection of the body, the final judgment before God, the eternal bliss in heaven for those who are in Christ Jesus, and the endless suffering in hell for those who have not received salvation.
See above.
Maybe it would be helpful to put yourself in my shoes. From my perspective, for example, the Bible and the Book of Mormon have equal validity. What would make you-in-my-shoes choose your religion over Mormonism?
Complete Garbage......Scientology
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
Wow, this thread has PROVEN the theory of evolution. Look at it's evolution:
6000SUX vs. Vic
6000SUX vs. BigJ
6000SUX vs. tealk
I think there may have even been a 6000SUX vs. Crono in there somewhere too.
I wonder where the next evolutionary step will bring us to?
6000SUX vs. Vic
6000SUX vs. BigJ
6000SUX vs. tealk
I think there may have even been a 6000SUX vs. Crono in there somewhere too.
I wonder where the next evolutionary step will bring us to?
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
Originally posted by: tealk
Mormans and jehova's Witnesse's are NOT anywhere near the same as Christianity. In fact, they are some of the most misguided.
:laugh:
Considering the name that 'Christianity' has developed for itself, I'll take that as a compliment. And I'll tell ya, being misguided never felt so good!
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
Mormon.
EDIT: If you have question or comments about that though, please keep them to private messages as this topic is way off.
EDIT: If you have question or comments about that though, please keep them to private messages as this topic is way off.
Originally posted by: tealk
Complete Garbage......Scientology
That's just your opinion. I would get off that arrogant high horse you're on, thinking that your faith is correct and above and beyond all others. As 6000SUX was trying to ask, why should we believe your faith above all others?
My wife thinks like you, and I tell her it's because she was brainwashed from the beginning, as a child, to believe literally the information written in the Bible. When that type of person becomes an adult, it becomes very hard to let go of that teaching. Remember when we were told that Santa Clause didn't exist - it hurt!!
I'm sorry you were brainwashed as a child. I on the other hand did not grow up in a religious environment, and so for a person like me to be told as an adult that Christianity and Jesus is the truth is very difficult to swallow. Now if that information had been stuffed down my throat from the day I was born, then maybe I would believe it like you.
3NF 1:1 "All life on this planet was genetically engineered by aliens"
3NF 1:2 "Goto 1:1"
Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Wow, this thread has PROVEN the theory of evolution. Look at it's evolution:
6000SUX vs. Vic
6000SUX vs. BigJ
6000SUX vs. tealk
I think there may have even been a 6000SUX vs. Crono in there somewhere too.
I wonder where the next evolutionary step will bring us to?
Some would probably prefer to label this "survival of the dumbest" or at least "survival of the stubbornest". Incidentally, a positive comment on your religion: I noticed that Mormons are considered an exception to the negative correlation between education and religiosity.
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