will Intel release another CPU on 1150?

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

But who cares about that on a desktop? It's plugged in and the power savings on your electric bill will be hardly anything. Haswell IGP is plenty for basic needs and the new IGP still won't be good enough for modern games at 1080p at anything higher than low to medium settings. On battery powered devices though the power savings would be substantial for run time, and in the case of ultra thin notebooks that don't have the space or thermal capacity for a dGPU, the improved IGP would be a nice benefit. To me it makes perfect sense why it would be BGA only and really doesn't upset me when you consider the above factors.

I think that is a very good answer.

The danger for Intel though is that many more people may keep their existing desktop for much longer (as they will have very little incentive to change it), and sales for new desktops may drop even more dramatically.

 

[crashtech]

Desktops are basically moving into a niche. Locally I cannot give desktop systems or parts away.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Maybe it will be possible to buy a tiny Broadwell mini-ITX computer (or even NUS sized). That would do fine for many people, and many business uses.

 

[Concillian]

I guess it's taking a long time for the current situation to sink in with me, SORRY.

I've been so use to the constant stream of new cpu's which have been coming out for about the last forty years. Where, (very approximately) every two years, you could go out, and swap/upgrade your 2 year old cpu for a brand new one, which was double the execution speed. E.g. 800 MHz rather than the old ones 400 MHz etc, etc.
Things are changing on that front, and it is taking me a long time to get use to it. We need a "new law of Physics" to solve this problem.

The disappearing desktop market, has got me worried and confused.

To me, (as a computer enthusiast), it's as if cars started disappearing overnight. And for some strange reason, there were no more new cars for sale any more.

Oh, I understand, I've been doing a computer every 6-24 months for the last 15 or 18 years.

Sucks, but it's pretty clear what the plan is (squeeze the consumers.) It seems to match with the plan of quite a few other businesses these days. Consolidation has happened in many industries, taking away competition and then the squeeze is on. Before it was big = more efficient = more competitive. But it became so competitive all the smalls are gone, so now it's big = all there is so squeeze for profit.

If you want proof of this, just look at the prices of the 4670k online. Everyone's $250, but my local Central Computer is $230. WTF? It used to be the online guys were efficient, so they were cheap and the small computer shops were expensive. Not anymore... the online vendors took out most of the small computer shops... now they charge premiums, because most people don't even have a local option anymore. Don't need customer service anymore, they have no other viable option... Jack up the price and make the shareholders happy!

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Everyone's $250...Jack up the price and make the shareholders happy!

Thanks for the explanation.

I'm wondering how long Intel can survive doing that. How long can things continue, because the "performance brick wall" that Intel seem to be hitting, probably means that "Arm" processors can catch up and have vaguely comparable performance to Intel chips (or at least have so many slower cores, that in some cases software can achieve comparable results).

Then it's, Intel = $250 (from the quote above)
Arm = $0.07 (or something) + one off licence fee + wafer manufacturing cost

It reminds me when in the seventies, main frame computers were of the order of millions of dollars, and microprocessors were tens of dollars.
So these days, Mainframes = somewhat extinct, Microprocessors = Plentiful

Will we see something similar, between Arm's incarnations and Intel's cpu's ?

 

[Edrick]

I'm wondering how long Intel can survive doing that. How long can things continue, because the "performance brick wall" that Intel seem to be hitting, probably means that "Arm" processors can catch up and have vaguely comparable performance to Intel chips (or at least have so many slower cores, that in some cases software can achieve comparable results).

First off, yes, Intel is hitting a wall with the old, legacy x86 uArch. It is working around this by expanding pathway, speeding up the cache, and most importantly adding new instructions (AVX2/FMA). Some people on these forums do not understand this and expect Intel to post 10% IPC gains every year.

Second, more slower cores will never equal fewer faster cores.....at least until software is designed as such. And moving past 4-8 core threaded software is complex and expensive, hence why we are stuck at the core count we are now. Very few applications take advantage of more at the moment. Eventually we will get to a point were 16-32 cores makes sence, and when we do, Intel will have CPUs to match. ARM will never get the performance crown.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

First off, yes, Intel is hitting a wall with the old, legacy x86 uArch. ...

As the power/performance/capability/enhancements/scalability of the Arm series improves, each year, it seems that at some point, maybe in the next few years, it will be "GOOD ENOUGH" as regards cpu abilities/speed. This could allow the Arm series to take over the cpu market from top to bottom. Where top could be a new weather prediction super computer in China (or somewhere), with millions of high speed compute nodes. Bottom would be embedded stuff, such as tiny hand held devices, where Arm cpu's already have a huge proportion of the market.

From meeting other computer enthusiasts, we really care about 16 Gb RAM over 8 Gb RAM, make and capacity of the computer power supply etc etc.
But to most other people (and I have met many, and helped them with their computer issues or buying decisions, sometimes) DO NOT CARE LESS about what is inside their new computer-desk-top/laptop/ultra-portable/tiny-computer. All they seem to care about is its price, size, looks and if it is "good enough" to do stuff for them, which is often just web browsing/e-mails and other fairly low end stuff.

When the above point is reached (a viable "good enough" Arm series cpu), and assuming it is at the usual very keen Arm pricing, we may see a big shift over to Arm processors, even on larger style computers.

We seem to already be partially there, as I have seen (but not used) cheap $20..$40 tiny usb devices which are almost full computers, and plug into the back usb port of your television, turning it into a web-browsing and low end game playing (Android or Linux etc) computer. RasberryPI is another example.
I think some of the big giant super computers are already discussing (or have been) made using huge numbers of Arm processors.

Let me put it another way. If we could buy a computer for $99 total, which was Mini-ITX or smaller form factor, and it was about 50% of the performance of the current main stream Intel desktop processor, many people would be interested in buying it (I suspect).

Attempt at getting this thread back on topic:
Is "Haswell Refresh" likely to come onto socket 1150, and if it does, will it need a new chip set, so existing ones are no good anyway ?

 

[Pheesh]

haswell refresh would be on same socket. It wouldn't *need* a new chipset, but would likely coincide with an updated chipset release that had additional features added.

 

[crashtech]

It might end up being like Ivy on a Z68, needing a BIOS flash with an older CPU to boot the mobo.

 

[Edrick]

As the power/performance/capability/enhancements/scalability of the Arm series improves, each year, it seems that at some point, maybe in the next few years, it will be "GOOD ENOUGH" as regards cpu abilities/speed. This could allow the Arm series to take over the cpu market from top to bottom. Where top could be a new weather prediction super computer in China (or somewhere), with millions of high speed compute nodes. Bottom would be embedded stuff, such as tiny hand held devices, where Arm cpu's already have a huge proportion of the market.

From meeting other computer enthusiasts, we really care about 16 Gb RAM over 8 Gb RAM, make and capacity of the computer power supply etc etc.
But to most other people (and I have met many, and helped them with their computer issues or buying decisions, sometimes) DO NOT CARE LESS about what is inside their new computer-desk-top/laptop/ultra-portable/tiny-computer. All they seem to care about is its price, size, looks and if it is "good enough" to do stuff for them, which is often just web browsing/e-mails and other fairly low end stuff.

When the above point is reached (a viable "good enough" Arm series cpu), and assuming it is at the usual very keen Arm pricing, we may see a big shift over to Arm processors, even on larger style computers.

We seem to already be partially there, as I have seen (but not used) cheap $20..$40 tiny usb devices which are almost full computers, and plug into the back usb port of your television, turning it into a web-browsing and low end game playing (Android or Linux etc) computer. RasberryPI is another example.
I think some of the big giant super computers are already discussing (or have been) made using huge numbers of Arm processors.

Let me put it another way. If we could buy a computer for $99 total, which was Mini-ITX or smaller form factor, and it was about 50% of the performance of the current main stream Intel desktop processor, many people would be interested in buying it (I suspect).

I am not going to say you are right or wrong, but I will say your arguement deals with a lot of assumptions and "what ifs". Hell, for all we know, we could all be using quantum computers in 5 years. Only time will tell.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

I am not going to say you are right or wrong, but I will say your arguement deals with a lot of assumptions and "what ifs". Hell, for all we know, we could all be using quantum computers in 5 years. Only time will tell.

I've been thinking along the same lines myself, after making that post.

The thing is (even if it somewhat disagrees with my own previous comment) that Intel have built up a huge amount of experience, market share, contacts, manufacturing techniques, know how, etc etc. That is likely to carry a lot of weight, and help them propel their upcoming future processors onto the new market places.
Whereas Arm based computers would have to build themselves up from nothing, and would have their resources split between different (competing) companies, such as Samsung etc.
There seems to be a huge amount of fixed "inertia" in the computer market, a good example of which is the windows desktop. Even now, (despite Linux being good and free), (despite Apple having huge monetary power), (despite Microsofts occasional "White Elephants" (= self burdening mistake), such as Vista, Windows ME and Windows 8.00), non-computer enthusiasts computers have a huge tendency to be Microsoft windows machines.

So to conclude, Socket 1150 seems to be the way to go, as 1155 is end of life, and "Arm" is probably nowhere near defeating it at the moment. There is still AMD, of course.

 

[fixbsod]

i woulda suggested you spring for windows 3.11 -- wfwg!

yeah, if I had listened to those people that say "just wait," I'd still have my 486 running Win 3.1.

 

[aigomorla]

I am not going to say you are right or wrong, but I will say your arguement deals with a lot of assumptions and "what ifs". Hell, for all we know, we could all be using quantum computers in 5 years. Only time will tell.

were gonna use arm processors with over 9000 efficient dedicated set job cores instead of having 1 super fast cpu.
So instead of doing 9000 jobs in a blink of an eye... we can parallel 9000 different coding at once in a blink of an eye.

Watch!! this is how things are gonna go....

 

[VirtualLarry]

Desktops are basically moving into a niche. Locally I cannot give desktop systems or parts away.

I've had the same problem.

I don't get it, nobody loves desktops anymore? I admit, I'm also interested in the smaller form-factors, but when it comes down to it, I really enjoy my quad-core rig with discrete GPU more.

 

[Arachnotronic]

I've had the same problem.

I don't get it, nobody loves desktops anymore? I admit, I'm also interested in the smaller form-factors, but when it comes down to it, I really enjoy my quad-core rig with discrete GPU more.

All anybody cares about is frigging tablets...

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

All anybody cares about is frigging tablets...

There's nothing wrong with tablets. I'm buying one today, it's having a socket 2011 processor, 1000W power supply, 4 large fans, 5 HDD Raid array, 4 large graphics cards, Dual 30" LCD screen, and other bits and pieces.
It only weighs 100g, is only 2mm thick, and less than A4 paper size dimensions. It is completely silent and does not feel even slightly warm, even when overclocked to 5GHz, its tiny batteries last for at least 100 hours.
If you DON'T think I'm joking, you are reading the wrong forum.

 

[ShintaiDK]

All anybody cares about is frigging tablets...

Tablets are just accessories. People still pick the PC anyway over any other device.

If you had said: "All people care about is laptops.". It it would have been right.

 

[TidusZ]

And while you wait, we will be enjoying our Haswells for 12-24 months.

I think the question these days isn't whether to wait for the next round of hardware but whether you should buy a processor made in 2013 or try and find a 2500k from january 2011 and overclock it to 5 ghz for faster performance than haswell. If you are wondering whether you should wait for the next processor, my answer would be you have already waited 2-1/2 years too long, buy now and dont buy again for 10+ years.

 

[Concillian]

I think the question these days isn't whether to wait for the next round of hardware but whether you should buy a processor made in 2013 or try and find a 2500k from january 2011 and overclock it to 5 ghz for faster performance than haswell.

Well, that will certainly give you adequate performance, but I think performance a de-lid Haswell OC is gonna outpace a SB OC.

I'm not saying it's gonna be a ton faster, but I'd be surprised if it's slower than the SB OC using the same cooling.

If the main point here was the stagnation in the OCed desktop CPU area, then yes, I agree. That's obvious and true. That a 2 generations past SB CPU can be even remotely competitive with the latest core CPU is testament to that, but I think once the Haswell dust settles the de-lidded and OCed Haswells will definitely outpace the OCed SBs. Not by huge margins, but they will.

It's only been a week or so for Haswell. Ivy wasn't great at launch either, but people eventually got pretty easy 4.5+ OCs once we figured out de-lid and BIOSes got optimized. Give Haswell mobos some time to get BIOS in order and we'll get some people to de-lid and Haswell is going to end up fine.

 

[crashtech]

...I think once the Haswell dust settles the de-lidded and OCed Haswells will definitely outpace the OCed SBs. Not by huge margins, but they will.

No question that will happen, in fact a good OCed Haswell might do the job with no delidding. It's just that the Sandy Bridges with their soldered lids make it so easy, and they are getting easy on the wallet, too.

@ShintaiDK, there are several members of my extended family who, all previously having owned PCs, have even given up laptops. They have ipads and smartphones, and that is all.

 

[Concillian]

I'm probably in the minority, but I like that de-lidding is a thing. It's something fun to do on a weekend to squeeze out performance.

Soldered is easy, but de-lid feels more like the roots of old-school OCing.

Then again, I like experimenting with stuff and optimizing. My sideline is re-programming stock ECUs in cars to squeeze out extra performance from them. And my day job is squeezing out performance from a manufacturing process wherever I can... it's what I like doing.

Hell, I bought an Ivy just because you could de-lid it. I bought it, tested it, de-lidded, re-tested then it sat around unused for almost a year... and my main rig is still an i3-530.... Once the experiments were done the fun was done too, and I just forgot about it. The games I play and apps I use are good to go with my OCed Clarkdale. Makes me wish there were i3 K series chips. It'd be fun to play with a de-lidded 5+ GHz Haswell 2C/4T and they'd still be a big upgrade froma 4GHz Clarkdale.

I just put the Ivy system together again this morning to prep it for replacing my wife's e7200, since I decided to Haswell my rig in a month or two.

 

[Torn Mind]

No question that will happen, in fact a good OCed Haswell might do the job with no delidding. It's just that the Sandy Bridges with their soldered lids make it so easy, and they are getting easy on the wallet, too.

@ShintaiDK, there are several members of my extended family who, all previously having owned PCs, have even given up laptops. They have ipads and smartphones, and that is all.

I personally am getting that itch to have something I can hold like a clipboard while laying on the couch instead of the clunky and not-so-comfy way of putting a laptop on my lap for web browsing. Maybe not a tablet, but an e-reader at least.

 

[Yuriman]

No question that will happen, in fact a good OCed Haswell might do the job with no delidding. It's just that the Sandy Bridges with their soldered lids make it so easy, and they are getting easy on the wallet, too.

@ShintaiDK, there are several members of my extended family who, all previously having owned PCs, have even given up laptops. They have ipads and smartphones, and that is all.

I suppose I can see some people doing so - but they're the kind of people who never write a paper, type a resume, or write a program. PCs aren't going anywhere.

 

[crashtech]

A couple family members have keyboard setups for their tablets. I think it is possible to produce simple documents that way.