Will George W. Bush go down in history...

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Frackal

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Zebo,

While I agree with most of your post-----------------WHERE IN THE WORLD DO YOU COME UP WITH THE CRAZY NOTION that Clinton has killed more Iraqis than GWB??????????????????????????????

Another grim look at why the Iraqis would never have look favorably upon our occupation, and yes, clinton is responsible for starving some say millions of iraqis.

Just to give you a insight as to how us imperialism is not a republican monopoly.
It is a very shameful piece of history americans still have not recognized as to why the world is so disgusted with our foriegn policy.


http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011203/cortright
The grim question of how many people have died in Iraq has sparked heated debate over the years. The controversy dates from 1995, when researchers with a Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO) study in Iraq wrote to The Lancet, the journal of the British Medical Society, asserting that sanctions were responsible for the deaths of 567,000 Iraqi children. The New York Times picked up the story and declared "Iraq Sanctions Kill Children." CBS followed up with a segment on 60 Minutes that repeated the numbers and depicted sanctions as a murderous assault on children. This was the program in which UN ambassador (and later Secretary of State) Madeleine Albright, when asked about these numbers, coldly stated, "The price is worth it."



Albright was also the one who basiclly gave the green light to saddam to invade kuwait, then double crossed him once the corporate world realized how much money they were getting screwed out of, thus first gulf war.

Granted, the neocons already had their corporate sponsored claws into the us by this point, (since the 50's) being that a president is basiclly nothing but a figurehead for big profit. Politics are all smoke and mirrors anyway.

the whole liberal vs. conservative rep vs.dem thing is not even a real issue, if we didn't have our apathetic heads in the sand we would realize its the military industrial complex of america vs. the world. Little distractions like social issues keep our eyes off the big picture.


"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." -President Dwight D. Eisenhower in his 1961 farewell address


Eisenhower warned of this menace to freedom so long ago, now he rolls in his grave at what we have sacrificed in the name of war profiteers.

Link please about Albright giving Saddam green light to invade, and then corporations realizing they were losing money sparking GW1??

Good call, I was speaking of former US Ambassador to Iraq April Glasby,(or Glaspie) (just woke up) stories of which have since dissapeared from cnn websites and such. (including my favorite link on the subject) But information can be found if you are not old enough to remember the finer points of the backdoor dealing with saddam in the first gulf war with a simple google search.

The choice bit I am reffering to is back in 1990:
"We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts," the transcript reports Glaspie saying, "such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary [of State James] Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction ... that Kuwait is not associated with America."


Now try a google search for slant drilling

Now carlyle group kuwait debt

This was pretty common info back in the early 90's, lot of misinformation now though, and spin. But I link, you decide

Here is another link I found about how hushed this subject has become, I used to be able to find links easily, and this was all over major news (no real internet back then for mainstream news), now its really scrubbed
http://www.truthaboutwar.org/claim4.shtml

Regardless, a few people spoke out over the years and still remember how these gulf wars started, I remember being very angry over glaspie saying it was ok for iraq to overrun a neighbor.
Next thing you know some "kuwaiti" (who turned out to be a carlyle employee) started crying about premature babies being flipped out of incubators by iraqi forces (which in itself was another myth) and the drums of war suddenly started.

 

[ModerateRepZero]

as most people say it's too early to tell, although historically speaking you do get a fair idea of the Administration's ideas and policies (not to mention that a 'lame duck' president unable to run for re-election generally has less clout than a newly elected one).

Although I do not consider myself a liberal, I would have to agree that there are few (if any) things for Bush to crow about and mark him as great. Certainly he is resolute, prizes loyalty (not necessarily a bad thing), and likes to cut to the point (in contrast to clinton who often was an active thinker and questioner). But most of his policies and actions have not done well. He has succeeded in pushing through tax cuts, has promoted legislation strengthening our national security, appointed 2 conservative-minded justices to the US SUpreme Court, and also mandated educational testing in his "No Child Left Behind Act".

On the other hand, Iraq and increasingly Afghanistan are mocking Bush's infamous comment of "Mission Accomplished" regarding his War on Terror, Al Queda is still alive and Bin Laden is in hiding, Bush's amnesty proposal for illegal immigrants is stalled if not dead, and social security accounts are unpopular. Recall that Bush declared after his re-election, "I've got political capital and i'm not afraid to use it." Judging by his latest State of the Union address in 2006, his proposals are less ambitious than after his re-election.


With regards to other 'worst' presidents....I hesitate to put him up there, as much as I disagree with his policies and have misgivings about him personally and politically. As for Nixon...he arguably is one of the worst as a President given his willingess to subvert the Constitution and engage in illegal acts to cover it up. The fact that he was politically savvy and intelligent only made it more tragic.

 

[trenchfoot]

But I can't think of any President in US history that have made so many bad sins of commission, that has forced through so much bad social policy, and has done so much to damage the standing of the United States in the international community as GWB.

what comes to mind in this regard is this "wild" idea that bush lives in a world he and his cohorts constructed and he does not want to or cannot live or even survive outside of it. ergo, the scenario you just described.

his personal needs and those of his inner circle have always taken priority over the needs of the common citizen. to that end, he has insulated himself away from the real world and wants the rest of the real world to live in there with him. the logic being that in his own personal world, he can control any situation because he makes all the rules that everyone else must obey; especially when he can create rules in reaction to issues and situations as they unfold. the only problem is, to make his world work the way he wants it to, brute force, corruption, repression, deception, secrecy and all manner of treachery must be employed. kind of like....china maybe?

to that end, the more he can control what's going on around him (ie-congress and the courts) the more he can play by his own rules; which is indictative of the style of his administration.

in his world, to deal with issues that are too problematic or complex for him, he doesn't go through the rigors of finding the right answers; he merely redefines the questions to fit in his world. in that way he can, as quickly as posible, go back to concentrating on what he does best.

 

[deepred98]

Originally posted by: Frackal

Originally posted by: K1052
It is impossible to judge accurately how kind history will be to Bush's presidency at this time.

The bar is pretty high for worst president anyway. LBJ got thousands killed in Vietnam, Buchanan let the next guy elected deal with his mess (immenent US civil war), Andew Jackson botched the reconstruction in the worst ways possible and got himself impeached, FDR left us a leagacy of an immense federal government that is only getting bigger, Jefferson and Madison get credit for disarming us then declaring war on the world's formost military power, and the list goes on.....

Andrew Johnson

IMHO that guy (A. johnson) was the most useless thing ever to rule this nation
Bush isn't really that bad when compared to the other prosidents (at least he has done something, unlike buchanon and others)

 

[WhipperSnapper]

It's kind of sad that most people just point to Iraq and completely missed the economic issues. I guess some people's careers are just going swimmingly, completely oblivious to the plight of tens of millions of Ameircans who are struggling just to stay middle class or lower middle class.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

It's kind of sad that most people just point to Iraq and completely missed the economic issues. I guess some people's careers are just going swimmingly, completely oblivious to the plight of tens of millions of Ameircans who are struggling just to stay middle class or lower middle class.

Too much worry about Roe V. Wade or the gays or "insert social issue here". Have a coworker that is just giddy that S.D. passed an abortion ban so that it can be heard by the SCOTUS. Cares about nothing else (well, wants gambling abolished, no gay marriage, etc. but Roe V. Wade #1 on his hit list). Could care less if the US government went bankrupt or went into 100 wars at once (might care if it were Israel though).

 

[dahunan]

I just wish he would go down.. SOON

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: dahunan
I just wish he would go down.. SOON

Rephrase that one . . . I agree with the sentiment since you are obviously talking about Bush's political fortunes and those of his allies.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: dahunan
I just wish he would go down.. SOON

Rephrase that one . . . I agree with the sentiment since you are obviously talking about Bush's political fortunes and those of his allies.

Ooopss.. Yes.. true true - bad use of english there..

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: kstu
...as one of the worst presidents ever.

Basically, in 25 years, what will we read about our current president in our children's history books.

probably depends in part on how the Iraq quagmire eventually turns out. if there is endless bloodshed and fvck-ups over the next 10-20 years, then, um, the historical record might not look so favorably on Dumbya

 

[Malak]

In 100 years, when the USA doesn't exist, will anybody even care anymore? 1000 years from now, when history books reflect on long dead civilizations, will the US be anything more than a footnote in history? In 2 weeks, will anyone even remember this thread?

 

[borosp1]

Bush is definetely the worst president in my life time and its not just because of the Iraq war.

1. Ruining the middle class in America with inept policies by promoting companies to hire cheap overseas labor for blue and white color jobs. Stabdard of living has gone to the toilet for many Americans since Bush took office.
2. Ruining the environment by not agreeing to UN agreed upon greenhouse standards.
3. No effert to increase energy independepence by not allowing for increase in minimum gas mileage standards for cars and trucks.
4. Bush's policy of limiting funding for embryonic stem-cell research which could potentialy effect cures for diseases effecting mankind.
5. Promoting 2 ultra conservative supreme court judges which could effect American judicial system for years to come by potentially overturning ROE V. Wade.
6. Viewed as in the pocket of the Rich and infletuatial in society catering to them with policies that have greatest benefit for multiconglomerets and not the working man.
7. Creating a society of less and less trust of your neghbor. We live in a fear society.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Malak
In 100 years, when the USA doesn't exist, will anybody even care anymore? 1000 years from now, when history books reflect on long dead civilizations, will the US be anything more than a footnote in history? In 2 weeks, will anyone even remember this thread?

Judging by the perspective of many of the posters in this thread, most likely not. (Though I suspect the US will last longer than another 100 years in one form or another).

Will the US be remembered 1000 years from now? Probably, other extinct civilizations are still studied to a great degree.

As for remembering this thread, I can recall several similar threads with the same subject and most of the same opinions.

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Malak
In 100 years, when the USA doesn't exist, will anybody even care anymore? 1000 years from now, when history books reflect on long dead civilizations, will the US be anything more than a footnote in history? In 2 weeks, will anyone even remember this thread?

Judging by the perspective of many of the posters in this thread, most likely not. (Though I suspect the US will last longer than another 100 years in one form or another).

Will the US be remembered 1000 years from now? Probably, other extinct civilizations are still studied to a great degree.

As for remembering this thread, I can recall several similar threads with the same subject and most of the same opinions.

The US has done little to make it something worth remembering. There have been thousands and thousands of civilizations that you have never even heard of, some that survived longer than the US. It is in fact more likely that someone like Bill Gates will be remembered longer than any president we ever had.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Malak

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Malak
In 100 years, when the USA doesn't exist, will anybody even care anymore? 1000 years from now, when history books reflect on long dead civilizations, will the US be anything more than a footnote in history? In 2 weeks, will anyone even remember this thread?

Judging by the perspective of many of the posters in this thread, most likely not. (Though I suspect the US will last longer than another 100 years in one form or another).

Will the US be remembered 1000 years from now? Probably, other extinct civilizations are still studied to a great degree.

As for remembering this thread, I can recall several similar threads with the same subject and most of the same opinions.

The US has done little to make it something worth remembering. There have been thousands and thousands of civilizations that you have never even heard of, some that survived longer than the US. It is in fact more likely that someone like Bill Gates will be remembered longer than any president we ever had.

I don't agree, but you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: kstu
...as one of the worst presidents ever.

Basically, in 25 years, what will we read about our current president in our children's history books.

25 years?! lol.. if you asked about 200 years from now, your question might be relevant.

I believe that in 200 years, he will be seen as the man who began the anti-terrorism campaign which eventually ended widespread terrorism in the world... then again, that is only if the cowardly anti's dont screw everything up! If they cant find the courage and stamina to stick this war out for the 50 to 75 years it's going to take to "win," THEN we're screwed. And Then Bush will only be seen as the man who TRIED to save us from terrorism, while the liberal panzies who came after him doomed us all to failure and catastrophe...

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: borosp1
7. Creating a society of less and less trust of your neghbor. We live in a fear society.

The only thing that I truly fear is the possibility that cowardice and whining such as yours will prevail as the norm for generations to come.

 

[fatpat268]

Originally posted by: borosp1

1. Ruining the middle class in America with inept policies by promoting companies to hire cheap overseas labor for blue and white color jobs. Stabdard of living has gone to the toilet for many Americans since Bush took office.

That problem existed years before Bush took office. Blame the low/non-existant tarriff.

The only really effective solution is to raise tarriffs again to the the level they were pre 1980s, then hiring overseas wouldn't be nearly as economical. But anything involving money would be unpopular with just about everyone.

It's a double-edged sword.

 

[borosp1]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: borosp1
7. Creating a society of less and less trust of your neghbor. We live in a fear society.

The only thing that I truly fear is the possibility that cowardice and whining such as yours will prevail as the norm for generations to come.

As You type that reply from your bunker with a tinfoil hat on!

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: kstu
...as one of the worst presidents ever.

Basically, in 25 years, what will we read about our current president in our children's history books.

25 years?! lol.. if you asked about 200 years from now, your question might be relevant.

I believe that in 200 years, he will be seen as the man who began the anti-terrorism campaign which eventually ended widespread terrorism in the world... then again, that is only if the cowardly anti's dont screw everything up! If they cant find the courage and stamina to stick this war out for the 50 to 75 years it's going to take to "win," THEN we're screwed. And Then Bush will only be seen as the man who TRIED to save us from terrorism, while the liberal panzies who came after him doomed us all to failure and catastrophe...

Really...and just what exactly do you bring to the table? An e-badass attitude? Impressive, I'm sure Osama is just quaking in his boots.

If anybody is a danger to the fight against terrorism, it's people like you. You guys keep saying that the world's changed, and that this is a new kind of war, and yet you're still fighting the last one...actually, you're a rather large number of wars back. Terrorism truly is a different kind of conflict, one that is not impressed with action movie BS. It is, above all else, an intellectual conflict. It turns into a straight forward kind of conflict when you invade countries, but in most cases, that is a poor way to fight terrorism. 9/11 couldn't have been stopped by attitude, or cheesy bumper stickers, or spazzing at "antis" on the internet. It could have been stopped by a handful of cops if they knew where to look. It's an intelligence game, and quite frankly, guys like you don't bring a lot of that to the table.

 

[totalcommand]

Originally posted by: musicc
Bust did something good for everyone. Remember do not call list. That was great.

dang forgot about that.

1 point to bush

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Malak
The US has done little to make it something worth remembering. There have been thousands and thousands of civilizations that you have never even heard of, some that survived longer than the US. It is in fact more likely that someone like Bill Gates will be remembered longer than any president we ever had.

Obviously, the U.S. will be remembered for having been the most powerful nation in the 20th Century. However, sadly, it will be remembered and studied similarly to how people study the fall of the Roman Empire. Unfortunately, we're now in the "fall" part, thanks to Benedict Bush.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

probably depends in part on how the Iraq quagmire eventually turns out. if there is endless bloodshed and fvck-ups over the next 10-20 years, then, um, the historical record might not look so favorably on Dumbya

Iraq will end up just like Vietnam. A complete waste of American lives, time, and money for almost no benefit.

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: Malak

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Malak
In 100 years, when the USA doesn't exist, will anybody even care anymore? 1000 years from now, when history books reflect on long dead civilizations, will the US be anything more than a footnote in history? In 2 weeks, will anyone even remember this thread?

Judging by the perspective of many of the posters in this thread, most likely not. (Though I suspect the US will last longer than another 100 years in one form or another).

Will the US be remembered 1000 years from now? Probably, other extinct civilizations are still studied to a great degree.

As for remembering this thread, I can recall several similar threads with the same subject and most of the same opinions.

The US has done little to make it something worth remembering. There have been thousands and thousands of civilizations that you have never even heard of, some that survived longer than the US. It is in fact more likely that someone like Bill Gates will be remembered longer than any president we ever had.

LOL, yeah sure pal

 

[Subwayeatbig]

Originally posted by: borosp1
Bush is definetely the worst president in my life time and its not just because of the Iraq war.

2. Ruining the environment by not agreeing to UN agreed upon greenhouse standards.
3. No effert to increase energy independepence by not allowing for increase in minimum gas mileage standards for cars and trucks.
4. Bush's policy of limiting funding for embryonic stem-cell research which could potentialy effect cures for diseases effecting mankind.
5. Promoting 2 ultra conservative supreme court judges which could effect American judicial system for years to come by potentially overturning ROE V. Wade.
6. Viewed as in the pocket of the Rich and infletuatial in society catering to them with policies that have greatest benefit for multiconglomerets and not the working man.
7. Creating a society of less and less trust of your neghbor. We live in a fear society.

2. The Kyoto proticol worked against us. If you looked more into it you would see that the u.s. cannot afford the lost. Also the two countries that give off ALOT of polution China and India didnt have to sign off. So, why should we sign it. It basically worked against us. Benefiting everyone else but us. Our economy would be devestated.

4. Embryoinc stem cells arent the only thing. Recently a group broke through and was able to use Nasal stem cells. There are other things besides using embryos. Nasal stem cells are cheap and they can grow almost at the same rate as embryos. The Media makes it look like only embryo stem cells can save lives but it just aint true.


Well if you think about it The Wall Street controls the congress, thanks to there lobbyists. So all the blame can't be just blamed on the Bush Administration. Blame some of it on Wall street.