Will Democrats Learn Or Are We Doomed to Keep Repeating Partisan Tradeoff Elections?

[dainthomas]

The issue may partially be messaging, but I think the biggest issue is that the Democratic party contains such a diversity of viewpoints it's difficult to get them to lock onto a single goal. It's like herding cats. Look at AOC bickering with moderate/conservative Dems right now.

Republicans are a hive mind that get behind whoever the leader is at the moment. Republicans want federal court and supreme court judges. They convince their voters it's for abortion, but it's really about deregulation so they can make more money and tax policies that will keep shifting that money up. Literally everything they do is in furtherance of that goal. Look at Turtle, the masses are sick and starving while he sits on his ass for months. Literally the only thing that stirs him out of his shell is the opportunity to cram through another unqualified judge a week before the election. Then he goes on vacation.

 

[fskimospy]

Guys the issue is that one party needs to win a majority by a wide margin and the other party does not. This is not complicated.

 

[HomerJS]

Not not disagreeing with Bill Mahar on this. I'm a fan.

However I'm wondering where was the OP when Bill pointed out numerous times Republicans are bat shit crazy??

Also wondering why the OP thinks the Dems are the only ones who have lessons to learn. How about one for Republicans, stop being racist.

 

[Zorba]

I think it's fair to say that Democrats need to message differently because they are trying to win in a rigged system, but the actual problem is not that they don't appeal to the majority of Americans as they have already proven that they do. Their issue is that they don't appeal to the supermajority of Americans necessary for them to win political power because the system is rigged.

Also, Maher's point is dumb, and this comes from someone who watches his show almost every week. Americans aren't sick of identity politics, Americans LOVE identity politics. The argument is that Americans only like WHITE identity politics, which is what the Republican party is based on.

I agree with you. But if democrats were able to break through, they should be winning massive landslides, because they want what people claim they want. A lot of it is disinformation, a lot is media focusing on wedge issues, but a lot of it is messaging people obviously don't care that Trump is an asshole or kids in cages so spend your limited time talking about things they actually care about.

 

[fskimospy]

I agree with you. But if democrats were able to break through, they should be winning massive landslides, because they want what people claim they want. A lot of it is disinformation, a lot is media focusing on wedge issues, but a lot of it is messaging people obviously don't care that Trump is an asshole or kids in cages so spend your limited time talking about things they actually care about.

Or maybe people like racism and white identity politics more than they are willing to admit.

 

[UNCjigga]

Yes Dems have a messaging problem (that has nothing to do with "Latinx" or gender pronouns or any of the moronic shit FOX hosts love to focus on.) And yes, Dems looking to win House, Senate and Presidential elections are playing in a rigged system. Unfortunately, that system will likely stay rigged for at least another decade now.

What I don't understand is why we're all talking about Dems being shitty at messaging when the other party politicized a fucking pandemic, failed to assist Dem-led cities and states early on and is now talking about withholding virus vaccines from NY to spite their Dem governor.

 

[Zorba]

Yes Dems have a messaging problem (that has nothing to do with "Latinx" or gender pronouns or any of the moronic shit FOX hosts love to focus on.) And yes, Dems looking to win House, Senate and Presidential elections are playing in a rigged system. Unfortunately, that system will likely stay rigged for at least another decade now.

What I don't understand is why we're all talking about Dems being shitty at messaging when the other party politicized a fucking pandemic, failed to assist Dem-led cities and states early on and is now talking about withholding virus vaccines from NY to spite their Dem governor.

Because they still won way more than they should've while being the scum of the earth? That democratic supported state questions passed in states Dems lost?

All Republicans have to do to win is show and scapegoat, democrats actually have to work for it. It's not fair, but until Dems can win the trifecta it isn't going to changed.

 

[K1052]

Or maybe people like racism and white identity politics more than they are willing to admit.

I mean this is not a small factor of what moved suburban voters away from Trump this election. He went through considerable lengths to make connection explicit which didn't really go down well with a lot of them.

 

[woolfe9998]

Guys the issue is that one party needs to win a majority by a wide margin and the other party does not. This is not complicated.

Yeah, but, this structural unfairness certainly can't be addressed with dems not being in a majority position first. The most obvious here is not being able to do anything about partisan redistricting if we can't retake state legislatures.

So we have to attain power in the unfair system. The question is how to do it. Merely pointing out that the system is rigged doesn't move us forward.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yes Dems have a messaging problem (that has nothing to do with "Latinx" or gender pronouns or any of the moronic shit FOX hosts love to focus on.) And yes, Dems looking to win House, Senate and Presidential elections are playing in a rigged system. Unfortunately, that system will likely stay rigged for at least another decade now.

What I don't understand is why we're all talking about Dems being shitty at messaging when the other party politicized a fucking pandemic, failed to assist Dem-led cities and states early on and is now talking about withholding virus vaccines from NY to spite their Dem governor.

Maybe it's best to talk about what talk maybe has a chance to fix. We can see pretty well, I think, that Republicans are reason deaf and you may as well talk to a stump as them. The liberal brain can be taken over by fear, but it also is better equipped to override that fear using reason. Liberals have more potential to learn, to adapt and change with changing circumstance. It's why humanity is the most adaptive species, it is evolving toward liberal thinking. We left the stone age behind.

 

[SMOGZINN]

We'll take criticism the second you criticize us instead of your fevered hallucinations of what you think we are.

That post was what this entire thread was about. He wrote a post that said basically 'If you disagree with me it is because you can't take criticism' and then waited for people to disagree with him so he could say 'told you so'.

All Republicans have to do to win is show and scapegoat, democrats actually have to work for it. It's not fair, but until Dems can win the trifecta it isn't going to changed.

Republican's, and Trump in specific, have mastered the Gish Gallop and turned it into a campaign strategy. It all comes down to a simple idea, they can lie much faster than you can explain the truth. By the time you explain to the public why Big Lie #1 is wrong no one cares about it they are all up in arms about Big Lie #20, and you have 19 more to go before you are caught up.

 

[fskimospy]

Yeah, but, this structural unfairness certainly can't be addressed with dems not being in a majority position first. The most obvious here is not being able to do anything about partisan redistricting if we can't retake state legislatures.

So we have to attain power in the unfair system. The question is how to do it. Merely pointing out that the system is rigged doesn't move us forward.

I agree that the point is how to attain power in a rigged system but I think any discussion about this subject should include this fact. These discussions are always based around the idea that Republicans have superior messaging or whatever. They don't - they lose the popular vote in nearly every election!

This has a lot of implications for larger strategy too. Their strategy is clearly good enough to win a majority of voters but is changing it to emphasize white identity politics going to be more effective? I doubt it, that's what the party that gets fewer votes does.

 

[Jaskalas]

But, you and Maher are right.

Republicans are batshit insane and trying to kill us all. And we need the Democratic Party to be better and win.

That's not wrong.

Imagine loosing elections to a bunch of death cultists. We can and need to do better at attracting voters. That often comes down to an internal debate of whether that means middling policy that won't truly help anyone, or pushing for change that can scare people off. OTOH, an easier method is to focus on our tone and how we approach people - rather than focusing too much on what we approach them with.

The riots on the streets this year were a big problem. People may hate Trump, but they'd hate a mob coming for their family even worse. Attend a political rally and face violence by counter protestors is not going to help anyone. Speaking of tone... "Defund the Police". What a damn stupid phrase. We are telling people that we intend to eliminate law and order. To erase security and 911. It conjures up all sorts of Anarchy. Even if that isn't our intention, it's terrible PR.

We can and obviously should do better. Because if we cannot - then stocking up on guns and ammo is the only recourse. But so long as we are not beyond using words, as a civil society, then I suggest we at least try to stop the Republicans and their alt-reality bubble.

 

[Thump553]

There is a couple historical reasons why the GOP attracts the voters it does. The first two are the hot button issues of abortion and the current distorted view of the second amendment. Not much can (or should) be done about those.

The third reason is that historically the GOP has been the party of fiscal responsibility. IMO this is the main reason a lot of people identify with and vote GOP. While that may be still (somewhat) followed in local and statewide politics, the national GOP has dumped that position since Reagan and after. Now their concept of fiscal responsibility is to cut taxes as close to nothing as possible, consequences be damned.

The Dems have long been a big tent party. The centrist Dems should campaign long and hard on prudent government spending for programs that are effective.

BTW I've noticed in my state (CT) local and state politicians rarely if ever state what party they are with, either on signs or in their ads. Is that the same nationally?

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I agree that the point is how to attain power in a rigged system but I think any discussion about this subject should include this fact. These discussions are always based around the idea that Republicans have superior messaging or whatever. They don't - they lose the popular vote in nearly every election!

This has a lot of implications for larger strategy too. Their strategy is clearly good enough to win a majority of voters but is changing it to emphasize white identity politics going to be more effective? I doubt it, that's what the party that gets fewer votes does.

The election is NOT the popular vote. Why do we have to continuously mention this because you're too incompetent to understand it? Saying "We would have won if we played basketball instead of football" is quite possibly the dumbest statement you can say.

Losing the popular vote but winning the election also isn't something new in our history.

Nor can you even say that you "won the popular vote"... because.... guess what? We weren't PLAYING the popular vote you dolt. Insinuating that the same results would occur if we DID play the popular vote is 100% asinine and can only come from the mouth of someone that needs mental help.

 

[K1052]

The riots on the streets this year were a big problem. People may hate Trump, but they'd hate a mob coming for their family even worse. Attend a political rally and face violence by counter protestors is not going to help anyone. Speaking of tone... "Defund the Police". What a damn stupid phrase. We are telling people that we intend to eliminate law and order. To erase security and 911. It conjures up all sorts of Anarchy. Even if that isn't our intention, it's terrible PR.

Trump claimed that Joe Biden would destroy god. I don't think we've really grappled with how the ever escalating dishonesty from Republicans has gained traction with a big segment of the electorate.

 

[fskimospy]

The election is NOT the popular vote. Why do we have to continuously mention this because you're too incompetent to understand it? Saying "We would have won if we played basketball instead of football" is quite possibly the dumbest statement you can say.

I agree the election is not the popular vote, that was literally the point of my post! It is once again absolutely hilarious to me that you say things this stupid all the time and yet constantly call other people dumb.

I think you might need to face up to reality - you are not a very smart person. I don't even primarily mean this as an insult or a joke, you just constantly say really dumb things and I don't think you can help it because you just lack the capacity to do better.

Losing the popular vote isn't something new in our history.

Nor can you even say that you "won the popular vote"... because.... guess what? We weren't PLAYING the popular vote you dolt. Insinuating that the same results would occur if we DID play the popular vote is 100% asinine and can only come from the mouth of someone that needs mental help.

Of course you can say who won the popular vote, it's a fact that anyone with access to a computer can look up! I didn't say anything about what results would happen in some alternate reality if Republicans had to win the majority of the vote, you just made that up in your head, most likely because you need mental help, hahaha.

Personally I think it would be GREAT if Republicans had to win a majority of the vote because then their policies would be less insane!

 

[IronWing]

There is a couple historical reasons why the GOP attracts the voters it does. The first two are the hot button issues of abortion and the current distorted view of the second amendment. Not much can (or should) be done about those.

The third reason is that historically the GOP has been the party of fiscal responsibility. IMO this is the main reason a lot of people identify with and vote GOP. While that may be still (somewhat) followed in local and statewide politics, the national GOP has dumped that position since Reagan and after. Now their concept of fiscal responsibility is to cut taxes as close to nothing as possible, consequences be damned.

The Dems have long been a big tent party. The centrist Dems should campaign long and hard on prudent government spending for programs that are effective.

BTW I've noticed in my state (CT) local and state politicians rarely if ever state what party they are with, either on signs or in their ads. Is that the same nationally?

The Republicans aren't fiscally responsible at any level of government. They pretend to be responsible at the state/local level knowing full well that their buds at the federal level will rain money down on them to cover their asses. This is how we ended up with such lopsided red state welfare.

 

[ivwshane]

The problem with mahers opinion, which ironically he even talked about earlier in the show, is that he seems to think twitter/tweets are representative of how Democrats feel. Tweets aren't people, stop equating the two.


Messaging is important but it's not what you say or how you say it that matters, it's repetition of the message. This should be blatantly obvious just by looking at the GOP and its history. If dems want to win in even bigger numbers they have to do the same thing the right has been doing for decades, demonize the right as anti American and keep repeating their policy ideas often and all over the country. Republicans have controlled the narrative for so long that we get idiots like the OP and Maher falling for the rights narrative without even realizing it.

 

[zinfamous]

Also a lot of the predictions about what's going to happen politically over the short to medium haul are...pretty premature. The Dems are wandering around trying to make sense of the Biden coalition and the GOP is essentially frozen in place by Trump who's own interests many not be compatible with theirs electorally now. The GA runoff is already kind of signaling that last point as the Rs get worried.

What things will look like in 2022 or 2024 is a real open question.

yes, after Mitt Romney's very large defeat, the GOP spent tons of money rebranding themselves, essentially convincing their leaders that they need to start moving towards the middle a bit, which pretty much everyone adopted, except for Trump, who went many miles to the right and full-on batshit. Trump obliterated the GOP field that had completely adopted their 2012 "Postmortem" I think they called it.

Now, the message seems to be full-on batshit, and maybe just more of it, to win the GOP base and motivate them to vote.

 

[woolfe9998]

I agree that the point is how to attain power in a rigged system but I think any discussion about this subject should include this fact. These discussions are always based around the idea that Republicans have superior messaging or whatever. They don't - they lose the popular vote in nearly every election!

This has a lot of implications for larger strategy too. Their strategy is clearly good enough to win a majority of voters but is changing it to emphasize white identity politics going to be more effective? I doubt it, that's what the party that gets fewer votes does.

I don't think the idea is to copy the GOP's version of white identity politics. I think it's to de-emphasize identity politics altogether. Not refrain from discussing it at all. Just discussing it less. Dems approach to identity politics doesn't buy them white working class voters, and may alienate some. And it's clearly reached its peak with voters of color.

Obviously policies don't win elections. To a large extent, personalities do. But something else also does: branding. Since the 1980's the republicans have attempted to brand democrats as leftist radical commies who are for open borders and want to take our guns away.

Here's some counter-branding: the GOP is a corrupt, dishonest and untrustworthy political party. This sort of messaging will be easier in the post-Trump era, and particularly after this election cycle. The message is simple: republicans cheat. Republicans lie. Republicans don't care about voters, only their own power.

If they want to continue to try to brand democrats as socialist radicals, the approach is not just to deny and disavow the extreme views they're trying attribute to our candidates, it's to point out that they're lying again. How do we know this? Because they said the same things about Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama and neither governed the way they claimed. Remember? Voters have short memories, so remind them.

Also remind them of the fact that republicans have claimed to be a fiscally responsible political party and have blown up deficits whenever in power. And that they've cowtowed to a wannabe tyrant who refuses to concede an election he lost. Brand the GOP with the slime of Donald Trump and with decades of their lies.

Others may have different ideas about precise messaging but I really do think it's a branding game right now and democrats can be doing a better job of it.

 

[zinfamous]

Fucking LOL @ the narcissistic behavior of lefties here. It's quite clear you are your own worst enemy. You are Trump. Congratulations!

You don't dare take this at a self-improvement or criticism level - the first thing you mention is "It's rigged!" Sound familiar, little boys?

Resident Forum Super Narcissist screams and complains that everyone else are unapologetic narcissists because his points are obliterated by simple reality.

 

[vi edit]

Basically, Fox News and Facebook have done to our parents and peers what our parents and peers said video games would do to us.

 

[fskimospy]

I don't think the idea is to copy the GOP's version of white identity politics. I think it's to de-emphasize identity politics altogether. Not refrain from discussing it at all. Just discussing it less. Dems approach to identity politics doesn't buy them white working class voters, and may alienate some. And it's clearly reached its peak with voters of color.

Obviously policies don't win elections. To a large extent, personalities do. But something else also does: branding. Since the 1980's the republicans have attempted to brand democrats as leftist radical commies who are for open borders and want to take our guns away.

Here's some counter-branding: the GOP is a corrupt, dishonest and untrustworthy political party. This sort of messaging will be easier in the post-Trump era, and particularly after this election cycle. The message is simple: republicans cheat. Republicans lie. Republicans don't care about voters, only their own power.

If they want to continue to try to brand democrats as socialist radicals, the approach is not just to deny and disavow the extreme views they're trying attribute to our candidates, it's to point out that they're lying again. How do we know this? Because they said the same things about Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama and neither governed the way they claimed. Remember? Voters have short memories, so remind them.

Also remind them of the fact that republicans have claimed to be a fiscally responsible political party and have blown up deficits whenever in power. And that they've cowtowed to a wannabe tyrant who refuses to concede an election he lost. Brand the GOP with the slime of Donald Trump and with decades of their lies.

Others may have different ideas about precise messaging but I really do think it's a branding game right now and democrats can be doing a better job of it.

I agree that a powerful message for Democrats would be to remind voters that the last two popular Democratic presidents were demonized as socialists and that these were lies.

As for the fiscal responsibility thing I see little evidence that voters actually give a shit about fiscal responsibility. All the Democrats should do on this front is lie like the Republicans do and say all their policies will cut the debt. People might argue that this is ridiculous but the Republicans have literally argued that cutting government revenues will reduce the debt for decades now and nobody seems to care about that.

 

[interchange]

Maybe it's best to talk about what talk maybe has a chance to fix. We can see pretty well, I think, that Republicans are reason deaf and you may as well talk to a stump as them. The liberal brain can be taken over by fear, but it also is better equipped to override that fear using reason. Liberals have more potential to learn, to adapt and change with changing circumstance. It's why humanity is the most adaptive species, it is evolving toward liberal thinking. We left the stone age behind.

Careful. Someone might actually take you at face value.