Wikileaks releases Podesta's emails

[Starbuck1975]

The only irony I see relates to you talking about the intellectual honesty of others. I am still waiting for either of the two of you to provide some concrete examples of what 'disgusts' him or 'disappoints' you.

No offense, but I could pour 20 foot fall retaining walls and it still wouldn't be enough concrete. We will simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[Starbuck1975]

There are generally two strains of politicians in the idealists and pragmatists. Centrists are the second type, and both obama and clinton subscribe to this. Their flexibility to voter demands instead of an absolute has both its benefits/downside, and amplifying one or the other reveals more so the bias of the writer than anything about politics.



Their chorus is supposed to highlight the fact that you've got nothing, but feel compelled to stick to your guns anyway. This adherence to tradition, ie loyalty in face of all reality to the contrary, is a central tenet of conservatism.

I've not seen many people of either political persuasion concede a point. There is a chorus, and it is the deafening sound of partisan group think.

 

[agent00f]

I've not seen many people of either political persuasion concede a point. There is a chorus, and it is the deafening sound of partisan group think.

People who're correct don't need to concede much. Give it a shot if that's appealing to you.

Or maybe you're just a masochist who prefers the challenge of arguing against reality. As mentioned in the other thread, the days when the old ways were best are over, and evidently the world has been changing faster than many of its inhabitants.

 

[Starbuck1975]

People who're correct don't need to concede much. Give it a shot if that's appealing to you.

Or maybe you're just a masochist who prefers the challenge of arguing against reality. As mentioned in the other thread, the days when the old ways were best are over, and evidently the world has been changing faster than many of its inhabitants.

I am a masochist in the sense that i enjoy debating with people who are clearly unwilling to broaden their perspective.

Society and civilizations moves in cycles. What was old is new and what is new will once again become old. The American experiment is still young relatively speaking.

Some old ways are best. A sense of community and contributing to society is severly lacking in modern times, something the greatest generation understood, perhaps unified by their shared experience during the great depression.

 

[theeedude]

Looks like Ecuador has had enough of Assange running a US political operation on behalf of Putin from their embassy.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Looks like Ecuador has had enough of Assange running a US political operation on behalf of Putin from their embassy.

Wonder where the political pressure came from and through which channels. Or perhaps Ecuador acted alone?

 

[agent00f]

I am a masochist in the sense that i enjoy debating with people who are clearly unwilling to broaden their perspective.

Society and civilizations moves in cycles. What was old is new and what is new will once again become old. The American experiment is still young relatively speaking.

Some old ways are best. A sense of community and contributing to society is severly lacking in modern times, something the greatest generation understood, perhaps unified by their shared experience during the great depression.

Civilization clearly doesn't move in cycles except to those who never learned much about history. Eg. greatest generation of americans sacrificed among the least of their peers in the global scheme of things, and the loyalty of many who consider themselves such to someone like trump is not necessarily a virtue.

 

[Victorian Gray]

How dare you ask for examples of what he was talking about! The fact that you don't know what he is talking about is clearly an indication of how partisan you are and its not, in no way, shape or form an example of how partisan he is!!

/s

You read the forums at the Free Republic don't you.

 

[Victorian Gray]

No offense, but I could pour 20 foot fall retaining walls and it still wouldn't be enough concrete. We will simply have to agree to disagree.

Why do you refuse to give a specific example from one of these newly leaked documents/email that "disappoints" you?

 

[pauldun170]

Why do you refuse to give a specific example from one of these newly leaked documents/email that "disappoints" you?

That would require actually reading the emails.

 

[theeedude]

Wonder where the political pressure came from and through which channels. Or perhaps Ecuador acted alone?

Maye it was explained to them that you don't host an entity that is trying to interfere on a side in another country's election if you want to have good relations with that country. Or maybe they came to that realization themselves. Or maybe the fact that he started actively supporting a right wing anti-Hispanic bigot while being a guest of a Socialist Latin American country. Many possibilities, same outcome.

 

[theeedude]

Also, note that Wikileaks tweeted 3 hashes, "UK FCO" (foreign office), "John Kerry", and "Ecuador," meaning Assange is trying to threaten UK, US, and Ecuadorean governments.
So Assange is likely not exactly a welcome guest at the embassy, he seems to have some dirt on them that he is using for blackmail in order to force them to host him.
But that makes him a hostage to Ecuadorean politics, and their current president is no longer able to run for re-election in 2017, so he may be OK taking the heat of whatever it is Assange got on him.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

There are generally two strains of politicians in the idealists and pragmatists. Centrists are the second type, and both obama and clinton subscribe to this. Their flexibility to voter demands instead of an absolute has both its benefits/downside, and amplifying one or the other reveals more so the bias of the writer than anything about politics.

I'd say that it's possible to push a boundary without being an idealist; just a few generations ago we didn't have a war on drugs period, for example, so I find it difficult to believe that there is no way to accelerate things in the opposite direction today without compromising overall political success. But yeah, I agree that she and most other Democrats are basically centrists, at least with regards to social policy.

 

[ivwshane]

You read the forums at the Free Republic don't you.

I've never even heard of that place but I can tell you that the group think starbuckshat claims to hate so much is exactly what he is doing. He literally parrots right wing talking points as if they were his original thought and then when questioned on it he deflects.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Why do you refuse to give a specific example from one of these newly leaked documents/email that "disappoints" you?

Sigh. Because I have in the infinite other threads on her emails. Since you asked for specifics:

- Dream of a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders. Given the significance of this very talking point to much of the electorate, I would like to understand how this will work exactly without costing us even more traditionally middle class jobs

- Concession that to be successful politically requires a public and private position. To me that reads like the two faced status quo of many politicians

- email to univision thanking them for making Clinton look good instead of, you know, not tossing softball questions

- NYT concession to give Clinton camp veto power over quotes used in a story

These are a sampling. There are many others. As I have said repeatedly, nothing criminal or nefarious, but there is a trend that speaks to how she runs a campaign or organization, which I find unappealing. Not more unappealing than Trump, but saying she is a better candidate than Trump is like saying a root canal is better than cancer. Yes, cancer is far worst, but that doesn't make a root canal suddenly pleasant.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Free trade will happen. As long as individuals exist that wish to improve their standards of living, they will work to produce things that wealthier people (us) want to buy. I'm quite happy that she is taking the more free-market approach on this matter while the Republicans abruptly pivot to the position of government-intervention just to grab a few new votes.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I've never even heard of that place but I can tell you that the group think starbuckshat claims to hate so much is exactly what he is doing. He literally parrots right wing talking points as if they were his original thought and then when questioned on it he deflects.

Yawn. I exclusively read right leaning propoganda mouth pieces like the NYT, NPR and Rolling Stone. If I see stories exclusively carried by Fox and Breitbart, I know they are probably exagerrated claims from "anonymous sources" or "insiders". However, once the NYT runs a story on say the alleged quid pro quo between State and the FBI, I take notice.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Free trade will happen. As long as individuals exist that wish to improve their standards of living, they will work to produce things that wealthier people (us) want to buy. I'm quite happy that she is taking the more free-market approach on this matter while the Republicans abruptly pivot to the position of government-intervention just to grab a few new votes.

This is fair. Trump is jumping on the xenophobia bandwagon, as immigration is directly tied to free trade and open borders. His businesses benefitted directly from it, so his pivot is disingenuous. However, I also see the "free market" exploiting undocumented workers, which inevitably hurts the middle class.

 

[agent00f]

Sigh. Because I have in the infinite other threads on her emails. Since you asked for specifics:

- Dream of a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders. Given the significance of this very talking point to much of the electorate, I would like to understand how this will work exactly without costing us even more traditionally middle class jobs

- Concession that to be successful politically requires a public and private position. To me that reads like the two faced status quo of many politicians

- email to univision thanking them for making Clinton look good instead of, you know, not tossing softball questions

- NYT concession to give Clinton camp veto power over quotes used in a story

These are a sampling. There are many others. As I have said repeatedly, nothing criminal or nefarious, but there is a trend that speaks to how she runs a campaign or organization, which I find unappealing. Not more unappealing than Trump, but saying she is a better candidate than Trump is like saying a root canal is better than cancer. Yes, cancer is far worst, but that doesn't make a root canal suddenly pleasant.

Seems you have a rather idealist view of how the real world works. Rather a shame you don't apply it much to people other than clinton.

This is fair. Trump is jumping on the xenophobia bandwagon, as immigration is directly tied to free trade and open borders. His businesses benefitted directly from it, so his pivot is disingenuous. However, I also see the "free market" exploiting undocumented workers, which inevitably hurts the middle class.

For example to folks who think the GOP crowd hating on mexicans is just xenophobia. I can't imagine illegals are competing for middle class jobs.

 

[ivwshane]

Exhibit A of his right wing parroting.

My responses are in bold in the quote.

Sigh. Because I have in the infinite other threads on her emails. Since you asked for specifics:

- Dream of a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders. Given the significance of this very talking point to much of the electorate, I would like to understand how this will work exactly without costing us even more traditionally middle class jobs

She, of course, was speaking about what she would want in a perfect world. She understands we don't live in a perfect world which is why she realizes and has a history of compromise. She's said similar things regarding single payer and she the OG on the block when it comes to pushing health care reform. I guess you missed the nuance of her answer.

- Concession that to be successful politically requires a public and private position. To me that reads like the two faced status quo of many politicians

She was referring to Lincolns use of using different talking points to different people/groups to get things done and was acknowledging that that is a necessary in politics and she is 100% correct! Reality must be something you find difficult to deal with.

- email to univision thanking them for making Clinton look good instead of, you know, not tossing softball questions

I haven't seen this one yet, do you have a link to the full email?

- NYT concession to give Clinton camp veto power over quotes used in a story

This is literally a tool every PR person uses when they agree to have their client do an interview, especially if the narrative of that interview is important. You don't have to like it but again, it's a reality and its certainly not something exclusive to Hillary or politicians or anyone of any sort of fame or impertinence.

These are a sampling. There are many others. As I have said repeatedly, nothing criminal or nefarious, but there is a trend that speaks to how she runs a campaign or organization, which I find unappealing. Not more unappealing than Trump, but saying she is a better candidate than Trump is like saying a root canal is better than cancer. Yes, cancer is far worst, but that doesn't make a root canal suddenly pleasant.

Yes what you appear to find unappealing is a well ran campaign with a carefully crafted message. You are certainly entitled to hold that opinion but it seems rather petty when pretty much every successful political campaign had similar qualities. What I find amazing is the total lack of issues you bring up regarding actual policies.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Seems you have a rather idealist view of how the real world works. Rather a shame you don't apply it much to people other than clinton.

I don't deny I am an idealist. I tend to hold people running for or serving as President to a higher standard. You will find numerous threads where I am idealistically critical of Clinton and both Bush administrations. You will be hard pressed to find similar criticism from me directed at Obama or Reagan or Carter.

 

[ivwshane]

Yawn. I exclusively read right leaning propoganda mouth pieces like the NYT, NPR and Rolling Stone. If I see stories exclusively carried by Fox and Breitbart, I know they are probably exagerrated claims from "anonymous sources" or "insiders". However, once the NYT runs a story on say the alleged quid pro quo between State and the FBI, I take notice.

Yeah, I totally believe you!

/s

 

[ivwshane]

I don't deny I am an idealist. I tend to hold people running for or serving as President to a higher standard. You will find numerous threads where I am idealistically critical of Clinton and both Bush administrations. You will be hard pressed to find similar criticism from me directed at Obama or Reagan or Carter.

Which is odd because Obama is guilty of the very same issues you have with Hillary.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Exhibit A of his right wing parroting.

My responses are in bold in the quote.



Yes what you appear to find unappealing is a well ran campaign with a carefully crafted message. You are certainly entitled to hold that opinion but it seems rather petty when pretty much every successful political campaign had similar qualities. What I find amazing is the total lack of issues you bring up regarding actual policies.

Thanks counselor, but I am not on trial.

Policies you say. Which would you like to discuss? This electioj year is all gutter tabloid nonsense.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Yeah, I totally believe you!

/s

Believe what you want, you were going to anyway