Why you might want to skip college and go to trade school.

[JEDI]

Mike Rowe talks why trade school might be the best choice. He talks about the skills gap that is prevalent in America. He brings up a lot of good points.

The video is 45 minutes long.

http://www.thesimpledollar.com/why-you-should-consider-trade-school-instead-of-college/

union elevator guys make $50/hr in Dc metro area

 

[JEDI]

Depends on the trade but might want to skip trade school too if interested in the work. That's two years even earlier to enter the workforce, zero expense, and on-the-job training. If certifications are required they might mean more if obtained after getting some experience.

My understanding of the work is that it is performed in often extreme conditions, for long hours, next to uncaring scoundrels. If you are stuck in something like residential construction you can throw in mediocre pay and an unpredictable schedule. Can't really blame people for staying away.

this isn't the 1990s when u drop out of school at 16, work at computers, and get $100k for knowing DOS and wordperfect at 18.

 

[Vdubchaos]

But trade schools are something else entirely.

Associates degree is worth more than "trade school" certificate (in the long run anyways).

 

[dave_the_nerd]

As far as most employers seem to be concerned associates degrees are close to worthless, not merely enough to hire at a lower salary. Community college is useful if you plan on continuing on finishing a four year degree elsewhere, or if you just want to learn.

But trade schools are something else entirely.

Fair criticism.

I generally conflate community colleges and trade schools, since at least the ones I'm familiar with are under the same roof. (You just enroll in either a 1 or 2 year vocational program like auto repair, CCNP, semi truck driver, whatever, or you get an AS in the same thing, which involves all the same stuff plus some general ed classes.)

 

[JEDI]

in northern va, u can goto community college and be automatically admitted to a state 4yr university. which state U depends on your grades. the better the state U (ie: Virginia Tech), the better your grades and extracircular activity.

community college is dirt cheap.

trades have the 85 rule.
if age + years experience = 85, you can retire at full pension.

so even if u enter one of the more physically demanding trades (ie: steam fitter with HEAVY 6"+ diameter pipes plus welding in poorly vented areas) at age 18, you can retire at 51 relatively healthy.

but its still 33yrs on the job... 33yrs is a long time to dodge long term injuries


edit:
on the other hand, u can milk the system.
work 9 months, then volunteer/ask to be laid off. get unemployment for 6 months.
then goto union hall and get a job. rinse/repeat.

you need 2 full quarters of work to qualify for unemployment, and the most recent quarter don't count.
thus why 9months.

saves ALOT of wear and tear on your body

 

[Vdubchaos]

Fair criticism.

I generally conflate community colleges and trade schools, since at least the ones I'm familiar with are under the same roof. (You just enroll in either a 1 or 2 year vocational program like auto repair, CCNP, semi truck driver, whatever, or you get an AS in the same thing, which involves all the same stuff plus some general ed classes.)

Community college will teach you more and it better for the future (transfer credits and get Bachlors etc). It's also WAY cheaper.

Trade schools = $$$$$ and does nothing towards credits

 

[Vdubchaos]

in northern va, u can goto community college and be automatically admitted to a state 4yr university. which state U depends on your grades. the better the state U (ie: Virginia Tech), the better your grades and extracircular activity.

community college is dirt cheap.

trades have the 85 rule.
if age + years experience = 85, you can retire at full pension.

so even if u enter one of the more physically demanding trades (ie: steam fitter with HEAVY 6"+ diameter pipes plus welding in poorly vented areas) at age 18, you can retire at 51 relatively healthy.

but its still 33yrs on the job... 33yrs is a long time to dodge long term injuries

Not sure how you doing your math or where you are getting it from.

I know many people with Bachelors/Masters and 10-30+ years of experience nowhere CLOSE to retiring at that age.

Are there even any companies left that offer pension?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Too many people are looking at trade school /college from the wrong perspective. You do not have to pick one or the other. You can start with a trade and then go to college with more money, greater maturity and, better focus on what to do with your life. Honestly, I shake my head over how many think that if they're not on track to retire at 45, they've failed. Wtf planet do they live on?

 

[mmntech]

i've been in a skilled trade for the last 10 years, wouldn't trade it for anything.

but its unfortunate here in ontario that the government here keeps taxing us with useless fees and enforcements

Gotta keep those civil servants working and making double what everyone else does for the same job.

Skilled tradespeople can make a lot of money depending on what happens to be in demand. $40/hr+ is nor unheard of in construction for skilled people. Especially if you're a LIUNA member.

 

[JEDI]

Not sure how you doing your math or where you are getting it from.

I know many people with Bachelors/Masters and 10-30+ years of experience nowhere CLOSE to retiring at that age.

Are there even any companies left that offer pension?

reading comprehension phail

I said TRADES & 85 rule

 

[DrPizza]

My son started in one trade, then switched to another. His first full year in trade #1, $96,000. 2 years after the switch to the new job, I believe he made around $80k, though with better hours, easier work. Just turned 24 years old, so doing fairly well for his age. It's amusing that reading threads here, everyone makes 6 figures 2 years after graduating with a 4-year degree, even though the average starting salary for most engineers is far below that.

 

[88keys]

It's pretty simple really. It comes down to "what you want to do".

Some things don't require college and some things do. And Colleges do GREAT job trying to get you in for ANYTHING (after all they are a business).

MANY trades do require trade schools but many can be learned by simply working at the job (starting off on the lower end of the company and working your way up/learning).

I've found most companies don't do on the job training anymore

College degree = new high school diploma

This I can agree with. Nobody seems to give a shit about how well you did in High School let alone whether or not you have a diploma.

 

[alkemyst]

Perhaps, but what this also means is that for certain jobs, if you don't have a college degree, they won't even bother looking at you.

No university/college degree = resume goes into the garbage.

plus
no shot at most management and especially C type positions.

no major retirement package

no shot at six figures unless you are working 80+ hours a week.

etc.

 

[alkemyst]

My son started in one trade, then switched to another. His first full year in trade #1, $96,000. 2 years after the switch to the new job, I believe he made around $80k, though with better hours, easier work. Just turned 24 years old, so doing fairly well for his age. It's amusing that reading threads here, everyone makes 6 figures 2 years after graduating with a 4-year degree, even though the average starting salary for most engineers is far below that.

Without telling us the trade or geographic location, no one has any reference.

It's pretty rare for any trade person to start that high, are you talking once he was past all the apprentice/journeyman/due paying DOGMA?

 

[Eug]

Sorry Bill Gates/Steve Jobs, you're not qualified for the job...

Yeah, cuz by that logic, if you don't go to or finish university, you will be the next Bill Gates/Steve Jobs.

P.S. Steve Jobs dropped out of Reed College, and Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard.

 

[DrPizza]

Without telling us the trade or geographic location, no one has any reference.

It's pretty rare for any trade person to start that high, are you talking once he was past all the apprentice/journeyman/due paying DOGMA?

I had posted about it before. Electrical linesman apprentice. Within a few months, I believe he was making $28/hr. Great benefits, and the opportunity to earn a lot of overtime. Worked all over the place (the tough part of the job - never knew when he'd suddenly be moved from one side of the state to the other.) His cousin went to linesman school instead of going through the union; doesn't make anywhere near what my son did. I.e., there's quite a variation in pay.

He now does generator maintenance/repair/installations. (Big generators, e.g., 1.5 megawatt generators; so diesel mechanics, etc. involved.) Fortunately for him, he's very mechanically inclined; could completely tear down and rebuild a dirtbike in his teens, without any manuals. I don't think the average person would pick up what he does as quickly as he does. He's rapidly moved up within his company.

 

[Eug]

$28/hr isn't exactly a lot of money.

Depending on how many work hours there are in a year, say between 1950 and 2080 (for 37.5 and 40 hour work weeks), that works out to $54600 to $58240.

Sure, that's decent enough to live on, but it's just not an impressive number.

 

[alkemyst]

$28/hr isn't exactly a lot of money.

Depending on how many work hours there are in a year, say between 1950 and 2080 (for 37.5 and 40 hour work weeks), that works out to $54600 to $58240.

Sure, that's decent enough to live on, but it's just not an impressive number.

QFT...and if he was making $96k or even the $80k at that hourly rate, he was working 55-65.5 hours per week, every week. More than likely with no 401K and no health insurance/benefits.

That's the only real game tradesmen got, they can work their asses to death as a young man, but once they get older they can't keep up and many times not keeping up means you get replaced.

One can become a nurse in 2-4 years and also get overtime if they want. The pay off salary-wise is about equal, but with much better benefits and more room for advancement.

 

[Eug]

Well, to be fair, a couple of other advantages for certain trades:

1) Illegal, but a lot of trades will do work under the table. No income tax. My stove repair guy does this. He actually has a degree in electrical engineering but it's from overseas and while he has worked as an engineer in Canada, he didn't feel like constantly refreshing his education to compete in Canada, so he became a repair guy instead. Much simpler work and decent pay, and he works under the table in his spare time.

2) If you are good, you can go independent and charge by the job. You then make a much higher rate. If you have underlings, you can pay them the usual much lower rate and keep the rest. And if you're doing the work yourself then you get all of it. Of course, that doesn't factor in travel time though, and there are no benefits.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Community college will teach you more and it better for the future (transfer credits and get Bachlors etc). It's also WAY cheaper.

Trade schools = $$$$$ and does nothing towards credits

Oh, I see what you're getting at - you're thinking of "trade schools" like ITT Tech, or National American University, or any of those other for-profit certification mills.

Those don't even count as schools, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[alkemyst]

Oh, I see what you're getting at - you're thinking of "trade schools" like ITT Tech, or National American University, or any of those other for-profit certification mills.

Those don't even count as schools, as far as I'm concerned.

What trade schools are you thinking of?

 

[alkemyst]

Well, to be fair, a couple of other advantages for certain trades:

1) Illegal, but a lot of trades will do work under the table. No income tax. My stove repair guy does this. He actually has a degree in electrical engineering but it's from overseas and while he has worked as an engineer in Canada, he didn't feel like constantly refreshing his education to compete in Canada, so he became a repair guy instead. Much simpler work and decent pay, and he works under the table in his spare time.

2) If you are good, you can go independent and charge by the job. You then make a much higher rate. If you have underlings, you can pay them the usual much lower rate and keep the rest. And if you're doing the work yourself then you get all of it. Of course, that doesn't factor in travel time though, and there are no benefits.

#1 and #2 work in the IT field as well.

However; getting a real 40 hour work week is a challenge, getting multiple workers 40 hour work weeks even more so.

 

[DrPizza]

QFT...and if he was making $96k or even the $80k at that hourly rate, he was working 55-65.5 hours per week, every week. More than likely with no 401K and no health insurance/benefits.

That's the only real game tradesmen got, they can work their asses to death as a young man, but once they get older they can't keep up and many times not keeping up means you get replaced.

One can become a nurse in 2-4 years and also get overtime if they want. The pay off salary-wise is about equal, but with much better benefits and more room for advancement.

He had an awesome pension, 401k, and a hell of a cadillac insurance plan. It covered practically everything; no deductible, just a trivial copay. It even covered Lasik. He was watching a lot of the guys retire with about 20 years of experience, and receiving a 6-figure pension, on top of their 401k. He typically worked a 4 day week, with 3 day weekends. 12 hours per day, or whatever they felt like working. When he had storm duty, he got double-time, starting at hour #1 for the week. It wasn't "put in 40, then you start earning overtime." It was, "hey, you're going to work 7 days a week (if you want the money) for 2 weeks restoring power, get paid for 16 hours a day, and get paid $56 per hour for every minute of it." Journeymen linesmen (takes 4 years in the apprenticeship) make $42/hr, and when they're getting double-time, it's $84 per hour. There's no trade school to get in - you get paid right from the start; so there's no couple of years spent where you pay tuition, rather than make money. The journeymen can easily pull in $150k per year. Hell, they make just shy of $10k per week while on storm duty.

"$28/hr isn't exactly a lot of money." The median weekly salary for 20-24 year old age group: "Young earners in the 20-to-24-year-old age range earned a median salary of $446 a week in 2010, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics." (that was on an article that didn't provide a reference.) Or, look at this chart: http://finance.townhall.com/columni...-income-percentile-ranking-n1712430/page/full So, while $28/hour is relative, for someone in their early 20's, well, wtf are you talking about? But, I forgot, this is ATOT where everyone has 6 figure incomes. $28/hour, not living in a major metropolitan area, with a job that doesn't require a college degree is a damn good income for someone in their early 20's.

 

[alkemyst]

He had an awesome pension, 401k, and a hell of a cadillac insurance plan. It covered practically everything; no deductible, just a trivial copay. It even covered Lasik. He was watching a lot of the guys retire with about 20 years of experience, and receiving a 6-figure pension, on top of their 401k.

"$28/hr isn't exactly a lot of money." The median weekly salary for 20-24 year old age group: "Young earners in the 20-to-24-year-old age range earned a median salary of $446 a week in 2010, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics." (that was on an article that didn't provide a reference.) The median income in the US is around $50k. So, by 21 years of age, he was doing a hell of a lot better than the average person. But, I forgot, this is ATOT where everyone has 6 figure incomes. $28/hour, not living in a major metropolitan area, with a job that doesn't require a college degree is a damn good income for someone in their early 20's.

Awesome pension after one year of work?!?!

The first thing is most never make it to their pension. Your son changed after 1 year.

To support $80k at normal hours plus an awesome pension, insurance, 401K the bill rate is probably $200/hr for the company to make money. They'd more than likely want 100% utilization as well or more.

 

[Humpy]

He now does generator maintenance/repair/installations. (Big generators, e.g., 1.5 megawatt generators; so diesel mechanics, etc. involved.) Fortunately for him, he's very mechanically inclined; could completely tear down and rebuild a dirtbike in his teens, without any manuals. I don't think the average person would pick up what he does as quickly as he does. He's rapidly moved up within his company.

I don't think it matters much for people like your son if they go in to business or skilled trades. They will be successful regardless. Similarly, if a person isn't cut out for college they most likely aren't going to cut it in trade school either.

It's why I don't get a lot of the discussion that sometimes surrounds this topic. Work/occupations are pretty much all the same. If you can grasp the big picture you will do well.