Why there's no such thing as "Reverse Racism"

[nehalem256]

By the way, the author of this article isn't saying white people can't be discriminated against. He's merely defining the term 'racism', as something institutional (which may debatable). But from that stand point, he's right: there's no equivalent institutional mechanism that has held white people back.

Does anyone want to refute that point?

So basically it yet another case of needing a liberal-english dictionary to understand what liberals are saying?:awe:

 

[cubby1223]

On the scale of "the white community" and "the black community", no, "the black community" has never been able to racially oppress "the white community" in this country.

But on the individual level, abso-fucking-lutely have black individuals been racist and oppressive to white individuals.

Bottom line, this whole argument is stupid and does absolutely nothing to help those who are stuck in perpetual poverty. Congratulations, activists, for once again being a massive road-block on the path towards actually solving something.

 

[justoh]

By the way, the author of this article isn't saying white people can't be discriminated against. He's merely defining the term 'racism', as something institutional (which may debatable). But from that stand point, he's right: there's no equivalent institutional mechanism that has held white people back.

Does anyone want to refute that point?

But you made it in like 2 sentences. What's the author's problem? If P then P. I don't think that can be refuted, but maybe you'll get some takers.

 

[jhbball]

What's to refute? It's a ridiculous statement with no factual basis. Unless you're going to claim that every white person in this country could be rich and powerful if they chose to be, then there's something else keeping them where they are.

The same monetary system and government policy that keeps blacks down keeps whites down as well. It just so happens that the few people who keep those systems in place are white, but race has nothing to do with it. It's all about money.

If what you claim is true, then Obama could not be the president right now.

I think there's difference of opinion here. Just because institutionalized racism exists (the author cited recent examples), doesn't mean every black person can't achieve success in life. It just ultimately changes the probability of achieving success.

 

[BoberFett]

I think there's difference of opinion here. Just because institutionalized racism exists (the author cited recent examples), doesn't mean every black person can't achieve success in life. It just ultimately changes the probability of achieving success.

You're right, it is a difference of opinion.

First, a very small portion of white people make it to the upper levels of society, economically speaking. Blacks who strive for it can make it as well, as evidenced by Obama. There may even be a racist good ol' boys network at the top, but good luck changing that unless you also happen to be a billionaire. So let's ignore the outliers.

I, and likely many of the people labeled as "racists", think that what keeps the average black person down compared to the average white person is not institutional racism, but personal choices related to the culture that the less successful portion of the black community accepts. Again, we're talking averages. I'm not saying all blacks make those choices. I have a number of black friends that I see no differently than my white friends. Of course all of them are kind of nerdy in one way or another, they have good jobs and act like normal middle Americans. As others have said, it's less about race, and more about inner-city thug culture. High rates of absent parent(s), lower interest in education, idolizing violent media role models. I would imagine the success rate for uneducated, trailer trash fans of Insane Clown Posse is probably about as low as that of an inner city black male.

 

[cubby1223]

Going back and re-reading the article just to double-check I've been reading it correctly, the author actually does state as fact it is impossible for a white person to be a victim of racism.

"Tim Wise just wrote a great diary on right wing racism. As usual, though, in the comments some folks started claiming that white folks could be the victims of "racism" too. Even though I thought, from Tim's article, that the impossibility of that was clear, it's a point that's very hard to get across."

*sigh*

The consequence of this article is that by the way it is being written, all white people are racist because the ruling class of this country is primarily white. Wouldn't it have to be?

" But the fact is that every single member of the master class benefits from the unpaid labor of slaves at every level of society because they simply can't avoid consuming the products that slavery produces, or benefiting from the exploitation of slave labor. So unless members of the master class rise up and oppose the system and try to overthrow it (abolitionists, for example), they're going to be complicit in the slave system: even abolitionists will profit -- against their will -- in the slave system because they still have to wear clothes or use other things the system produced."

 

[davmat787]

Unless I am mistaken, to believe in reverse racism means one has (or had) to also believe that only whites (or whatever the source of racism is) could be racist in the first place.

There is only racism, but based on this and other threads, I think OldGamer wants to have it both ways.

 

[davmat787]

Going back and re-reading the article just to double-check I've been reading it correctly, the author actually does state as fact it is impossible for a white person to be a victim of racism.

"Tim Wise just wrote a great diary on right wing racism. As usual, though, in the comments some folks started claiming that white folks could be the victims of "racism" too. Even though I thought, from Tim's article, that the impossibility of that was clear, it's a point that's very hard to get across."

*sigh*

The consequence of this article is that by the way it is being written, all white people are racist because the ruling class of this country is primarily white. I don't see any other way to interpret this article.

People that believe whites can't be subjected to racism are really just saying that it isn't racism because it is justified. And it is justified because hundreds of years ago, my blah blah blah.....

To wit: see how albino blacks (or whiteys as they call them) are marginalized and treated in African countries.

 

[BoberFett]

The consequence of this article is that by the way it is being written, all white people are racist because the ruling class of this country is primarily white. Wouldn't it have to be?

That's a part of what I was saying above. Because the outliers (the relatively tiny percentage of the wealthy and powerful) are white, all of us crackers are racists.

" But the fact is that every single member of the master class benefits from the unpaid labor of slaves at every level of society because they simply can't avoid consuming the products that slavery produces, or benefiting from the exploitation of slave labor. So unless members of the master class rise up and oppose the system and try to overthrow it (abolitionists, for example), they're going to be complicit in the slave system: even abolitionists will profit -- against their will -- in the slave system because they still have to wear clothes or use other things the system produced."

This would also indicate that by their consumption of goods produced by whitey, blacks are perpetuating their own slavery.

Which is actually a more valid thought than anything in the original article.

 

[jhbball]

You're right, it is a difference of opinion.

First, a very small portion of white people make it to the upper levels of society, economically speaking. Blacks who strive for it can make it as well, as evidenced by Obama. There may even be a racist good ol' boys network at the top, but good luck changing that unless you also happen to be a billionaire. So let's ignore the outliers.

I, and likely many of the people labeled as "racists", think that what keeps the average black person down compared to the average white person is not institutional racism, but personal choices related to the culture that the less successful portion of the black community accepts. Again, we're talking averages. I'm not saying all blacks make those choices. I have a number of black friends that I see no differently than my white friends. Of course all of them are kind of nerdy in one way or another, they have good jobs and act like normal middle Americans. As others have said, it's less about race, and more about inner-city thug culture. High rates of absent parent(s), lower interest in education, idolizing violent media role models. I would imagine the success rate for uneducated, trailer trash fans of Insane Clown Posse is probably about as low as that of an inner city black male.

Right. But where does that culture come from? I think the problem, is that most lack the ability to 'connect the dots', and acknowledge that institutional racism helped build and drive the ghetto culture that exists today. It's simply not all about 'making good choices'. As, quite simply, 'making good choices' is a lot more difficult when you grow up living in shitty circumstances.

On these forums, it's common to see inner-city gun crime posts, where the conservative tag line is 'see, the problem is inner-city thugs (aka black people)! (insert smiley face/grinning face)' - with no further analysis, no analysis of WHY they may chosen that path in life; no real suggestions as to how rectify the problem (other than 'making good choices'). This is also known as 'pulling a Svnla' . In these cases, I think the 'racist' label is justified.

 

[cubby1223]

"you have to admit that there is some mechanism that is limiting black opportunity. That's the mechanism we call "racism""

There is nothing enlightening within this article. Drugs, disrespect towards education, the hip-hop culture, non-existent family units, if that is what the definition of racism is...

then everyone in this country, including blacks, are racist against black people. Congratulations, you have done a wonderful, wonderful thing for the advancement of black people.

 

[werepossum]

If what you're saying is that the belief that black people can't be racist is a form of self-delusion, then I agree.

There is another side to this, however. Black people were enslaved for about 235 years, after which they were heavily discriminated against for another 100 years. It's only been about the past 45-50 years since most forms of discrimination were ended. The trouble is that many black people continue to over-generalize about white people being racist, which is itself a form of racism. But these attitudes were passed down through generations of oppression, and continue to be passed down in spite of their decreasing similarity to reality.

But let me ask you this. Forget about blacks in America for now. Let's just take any abstract case. If one groups enslaves another for 235 years and discriminates for another hundred, would you expect the minority group to become fully integrated, upstanding members of the national community - with no trace of animus toward the majority group - overnight?

The black community has been broken in this country for hundreds of years. Maybe 45-50 years of the major cause being diminished isn't enough for it to heal.

I don't really blame white people, certainly not current white people, for the present problems. I actually blame most of it on the black community. But I'm being realistic here. Our ancestors screwed the pooch. You don't conduct yourselves in that manner for that long a period of time and then pretend to be surprised that you now have a "liberated underclass" on your hands, and that this underclass has some animus even though the animus may not be entirely justified any more.

What we have is a serious problem with the black community and the change has to come from within that community. But it isn't an easy problem to solve. There's just too much history to expect rapid assimilation. I'm very torn on the issue, because I'm often angry with the black community and its leaders. For example, focusing so much attention on George Zimmerman when they should be focusing on educating their youth. This community was broken by white racism and now it has to fix itself. While I'm frustrated or even angry that they haven't succeeded, I can also say that unfortunately I'm not all that surprised by it.

Well said, sir.

I've said before that young black people don't realize how far we've come and young white people don't realize how far we had to come. A lot of our well-meaning programs have had severe side effects, partially because it's human nature to see a safety net as a hammock and partially because we haven't always been smart about our programs, but the underlying goal of discriminating a bit against the majority in order to help the minority not be a permanent underclass is worth working for.

Going back and re-reading the article just to double-check I've been reading it correctly, the author actually does state as fact it is impossible for a white person to be a victim of racism.

"Tim Wise just wrote a great diary on right wing racism. As usual, though, in the comments some folks started claiming that white folks could be the victims of "racism" too. Even though I thought, from Tim's article, that the impossibility of that was clear, it's a point that's very hard to get across."

*sigh*

The consequence of this article is that by the way it is being written, all white people are racist because the ruling class of this country is primarily white. Wouldn't it have to be?

While the linked article seems to me to be garbage, he has the ghost of a point. Certainly blacks can be racist and can discriminate against whites, but does that really mean these white folks are victims of racism? Seems to me there are far too many self-proclaimed victims in our nation these days, and while certainly blacks can and do discriminate against whites I don't believe they collectively have enough power for that discrimination to rise to victimhood for those whites affected. In any case, it certainly can't compare to government discrimination of last century.

 

[jhbball]

Going back and re-reading the article just to double-check I've been reading it correctly, the author actually does state as fact it is impossible for a white person to be a victim of racism.

"Tim Wise just wrote a great diary on right wing racism. As usual, though, in the comments some folks started claiming that white folks could be the victims of "racism" too. Even though I thought, from Tim's article, that the impossibility of that was clear, it's a point that's very hard to get across."

*sigh*

The consequence of this article is that by the way it is being written, all white people are racist because the ruling class of this country is primarily white. Wouldn't it have to be?

" But the fact is that every single member of the master class benefits from the unpaid labor of slaves at every level of society because they simply can't avoid consuming the products that slavery produces, or benefiting from the exploitation of slave labor. So unless members of the master class rise up and oppose the system and try to overthrow it (abolitionists, for example), they're going to be complicit in the slave system: even abolitionists will profit -- against their will -- in the slave system because they still have to wear clothes or use other things the system produced."

It's only 'impossible' within the context of his definition of the word, as there is no institutional mechanism exists (or existed recently) to hold white people back. Really, the fault of the article, is incorrectly defining 'racism' to begin with.

 

[Svnla]

<snip>
On these forums, it's common to see inner-city gun crime posts, where the conservative tag line is 'see, the problem is inner-city thugs (aka black people)! (insert smiley face/grinning face)' - with no further analysis, no analysis of WHY they may chosen that path in life; no real suggestions as to how rectify the problem (other than 'making good choices'). This is also known as 'pulling a Svnla' . In these cases, I think the 'racist' label is justified.

Are you freaking stupid or trolling or what?

Again, read this = http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35300837&postcount=68 Where are your proofs?

Did you even bother to read this thread because I and others did address possible solutions/suggestions/idea = http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2331735

Since when providing links/sources/stats which are true = racist? Care to provide a link of the new definition of that as "racism/racist"? It is pathetic when you ignore true racists such as Quannell X with vile words, deep hate, and incite of violent/destruction toward particular race/people yet you try and try and try your best to put labels onto people with views that you don't like, even those folks provided evidences and facts to back up their statements.

Funny how you accused of others to do things that you don't like yet you are doing the exactly the same thing. You accused me as racist, yet, you are still UNABLE to provide quotes/links/etc. to show my allegelly "racism" => no solution of a problem.


You can shove that smiley face up to your stupid ass. Sorry but you have to be that stupid for me to call you out.

 

[momeNt]

So basically this means that racism is not about people, it's about the structure of society. In which case, yes, there is no such thing as reverse racism.

Oh... one small problem. That's NOT the definition of RACISM!!!!

 

[cubby1223]

Seriously, with the definition of racism being redefined to anything that limits black opportunity...

if you redefine racism to be equivalent to white people advancing in life faster than black people, without any conditional statements there, you create a system where it is the duty of white people to ensure the equal advancement of black people.

White people have done a lot over the last half-century to break down the institutional systems of oppression against black people, but black people still hold a responsibility as regular individuals irregardless of skin color to prop themselves up as education-seeking hard workers. The equalization of the two races depends on both occurring. And if select individuals in the black community do not value education and strong work ethic, then their impact on the statistical advancement of the black community in this country does not get to be attributed to racism.


The conversations we are having in this country are supposed to be about helping one another. The person who wrote the article that is the topic of this thread in my opinion is not helping accomplishing that goal.

With barriers of oppression continually being dismantled over the years, take an example from the Asian population in America, as a culture Asians have tended towards valuing education and hard work. Those who pursued those paths are succeeding in this country. There is little reason why a black person cannot succeed in today's America.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

If what you're saying is that the belief that black people can't be racist is a form of self-delusion, then I agree.

There is another side to this, however. Black people were enslaved for about 235 years, after which they were heavily discriminated against for another 100 years. It's only been about the past 45-50 years since most forms of discrimination were ended. The trouble is that many black people continue to over-generalize about white people being racist, which is itself a form of racism. But these attitudes were passed down through generations of oppression, and continue to be passed down in spite
of their decreasing similarity to reality.

But let me ask you this. Forget about blacks in America for now. Let's just take any abstract case. If one groups enslaves another for 235 years and discriminates for another hundred, would you expect the minority group to become fully integrated, upstanding members of the national community - with no trace of animus toward the majority group - overnight?

The black community has been broken in this country for hundreds of years. Maybe 45-50 years of the major cause being diminished isn't enough for it to heal.

I don't really blame white people, certainly not current white people, for the present problems. I actually blame most of it on the black community. But I'm being realistic here. Our ancestors screwed the pooch. You don't conduct yourselves in that manner for that long a period of time and then pretend to be surprised that you now have a "liberated underclass" on your hands, and that this underclass has some animus even though the animus may not be entirely justified any more.

What we have is a serious problem with the black community and the change has to come from within that community. But it isn't an easy problem to solve. There's just too much history to expect rapid assimilation. I'm very torn on the issue, because I'm often angry with the black community and its leaders. For example, focusing so much attention on George Zimmerman when they should be focusing on educating their youth. This community was broken by white racism and now it has to fix itself. While I'm frustrated or even angry that they haven't succeeded, I can also say that unfortunately I'm not all that surprised by it.

I find merit in your observations. Certainly the inner city hasn't improved greatly and other effects of the past linger. I can say that a significant part of my heritage was done away by what was effectively a successful genocide. Nevertheless, they are gone so that "final solution" worked. Not much fallout, but I digress.

My issues have mostly to do with how leadership has dealt or perhaps better, avoided dealing with real problems. There is this dance around accountability by some. An excuse for too many things because of history. I'm sympathetic but I don't see such "sensitivity" as moving forward. I've said this before. Everyone is owed an opportunity and that sometimes means that extra help is required, but someone who believes the color of their skin merits what they refuse to work for is unacceptable. We need both an awareness of reality and the realization that people must move forward.

 

[woolfe9998]

Well said, sir.

I've said before that young black people don't realize how far we've come and young white people don't realize how far we had to come. A lot of our well-meaning programs have had severe side effects, partially because it's human nature to see a safety net as a hammock and partially because we haven't always been smart about our programs, but the underlying goal of discriminating a bit against the majority in order to help the minority not be a permanent underclass is worth working for.

I'm not entirely sure that there is much white people can do about this any more. Our ancestors were largely responsible for much of this mess, but now they are dead and blaming them doesn't solve anything.

The single biggest problem is the devaluing of education in the black community. Therefrom lies the root of basically all of these problems, including poverty and criminality. I know where this attitude comes from. It isn't rocket science. When you deny people something and tell them that they are not worthy of it and are incapable of benefiting from it for hundreds of years they start to believe the message. Worse yet, they do what people always do when denied a benefit - they begin to denigrate the thing they are denied. We don't need your nasty white people education anyway. We get by just fine without it.

And this message gets passed down through generations even after the discrimination ends. Ironically, they carry this message of the oppressor from the past and are now their own oppressors. Every black parent who teaches their child to not value education is unwittingly carrying the message of the slave master who they despise.

I honestly don't know what solves this. Affirmative action was an OK idea for perhaps one generation but it couldn't continue indefinitely as it causes resentment and racism among whites. I think it has to be the slow process of integration and assimilation. How long that takes I do not know.

 

[werepossum]

I'm not entirely sure that there is much white people can do about this any more. Our ancestors were largely responsible for much of this mess, but now they are dead and blaming them doesn't solve anything.

The single biggest problem is the devaluing of education in the black community. Therefrom lies the root of basically all of these problems, including poverty and criminality. I know where this attitude comes from. It isn't rocket science. When you deny people something and tell them that they are not worthy of it and are incapable of benefiting from it for hundreds of years they start to believe the message. Worse yet, they do what people always do when denied a benefit - they begin to denigrate the thing they are denied. We don't need your nasty white people education anyway. We get by just fine without it.

And this message gets passed down through generations even after the discrimination ends. Ironically, they carry this message of the oppressor from the past and are now their own oppressors. Every black parent who teaches their child to not value education is unwittingly carrying the message of the slave master who they hate.

I honestly don't know what solves this. Affirmative action was an OK idea for perhaps one generation but it couldn't continue indefinitely as it causes resentment and racism among whites. I think it has to be the slow process of integration and assimilation. How long that takes I do not know.

Quite true. We can't change culture from outside, but we can take steps to remove the barriers holding back those who do value education and want to earn success. That isn't a legal system of barriers, but if one is trapped in a failing inner city school system there are barriers almost as strong. Those blacks who succeed, whether because of an affirmative action program or just from sheer hard work, are also black culture, and as you say, one big reason people denigrate education is because they don't believe it can work for them. By going the extra mile to make this practical (and this isn't a black thing, just a people thing that disproportionately affects blacks because of their lower average starting point due to segregation) we maximize the number of successful blacks and thus more poor blacks will see the potential in education.

 

[BoberFett]

Right. But where does that culture come from? I think the problem, is that most lack the ability to 'connect the dots', and acknowledge that institutional racism helped build and drive the ghetto culture that exists today. It's simply not all about 'making good choices'. As, quite simply, 'making good choices' is a lot more difficult when you grow up living in shitty circumstances.

I agree completely. Slavery, racist laws, racist people, all contributed to the plight of poor blacks in modern America.

On these forums, it's common to see inner-city gun crime posts, where the conservative tag line is 'see, the problem is inner-city thugs (aka black people)! (insert smiley face/grinning face)' - with no further analysis, no analysis of WHY they may chosen that path in life; no real suggestions as to how rectify the problem (other than 'making good choices'). This is also known as 'pulling a Svnla' . In these cases, I think the 'racist' label is justified.

At some point people do have to take responsibility for themselves. Unless you're going to implement martial law on a segment of society and force them to make progress whether they want to or not, there's nothing else you can do.

 

[davmat787]

I'm not entirely sure that there is much white people can do about this any more. Our ancestors were largely responsible for much of this mess, but now they are dead and blaming them doesn't solve anything.

The single biggest problem is the devaluing of education in the black community. Therefrom lies the root of basically all of these problems, including poverty and criminality. I know where this attitude comes from. It isn't rocket science. When you deny people something and tell them that they are not worthy of it and are incapable of benefiting from it for hundreds of years they start to believe the message. Worse yet, they do what people always do when denied a benefit - they begin to denigrate the thing they are denied. We don't need your nasty white people education anyway. We get by just fine without it.

And this message gets passed down through generations even after the discrimination ends. Ironically, they carry this message of the oppressor from the past and are now their own oppressors. Every black parent who teaches their child to not value education is unwittingly carrying the message of the slave master who they despise.

I honestly don't know what solves this. Affirmative action was an OK idea for perhaps one generation but it couldn't continue indefinitely as it causes resentment and racism among whites. I think it has to be the slow process of integration and assimilation. How long that takes I do not know.

Well said all around as usual good sir. To the bold, I have said before several times that change will have to come from within, and worse, external pressures will only have a negative effect as it would be human nature, and thus regardless of color, to resist that very pressure.

I don't have any magical answers either, but I do know that capitulating to the erroneous use of the race card will not help either. Call it white guilt or whatever you want, but falling inline with false racism only exacerbates the problem. It is the equivalent of giving up, as it is the easiest path to take, and it creates an aura of false victimization.

We need to focus on real, concrete racism, REGARDLESS of its source, or victim. Sure seems like treating racism equally, will have a positive impact, on racism. And capitulating to false racism, does not achieve this.

Or, I could be totally wrong too, but now that we can look back on the *TM-GZ debacle in its totality, I think there is some merit here. As soon as someone, or lets say the media, gives an inch of false racism and victimization, the supposed victim will take a foot. In the end, nothing is solved.

I can only hope the President will use the last few years of his term to really dig deep and honestly address this issue as it stands today.



*I apologize for bringing this subject into the discussion, it really has the potential to become Godwin's Law 2.0.

 

[buckshot24]

I agree completely. Slavery, racist laws, racist people, all contributed to the plight of poor blacks in modern America.

"LBJ" type laws have done more damage to modern blacks than anything else. Slavery isn't doing jack shit to continually hurt the modern black man. People like Al Sharpton are hurting black people more than slavery is in modern times.

At some point people do have to take responsibility for themselves. Unless you're going to implement martial law on a segment of society and force them to make progress whether they want to or not, there's nothing else you can do.

Exactly.

 

[buckshot24]

I honestly don't know what solves this. Affirmative action was an OK idea for perhaps one generation but it couldn't continue indefinitely as it causes resentment and racism among whites. I think it has to be the slow process of integration and assimilation. How long that takes I do not know.

I always looked at AA as "you expect less of these people than you do those people". When you do that you're telling the people you're trying to help that you're inferior. You're also telling the group that you're not trying to help that they have to work that much harder to compete. Works negatively both ways.

Can you imagine if in order to have a more diverse NBA Mexicans are awarded 3 points for a regular basket and 4 for a regular 3 point basket. Or in the NHL when a penalty is called against somebody tripping or roughing a black player the team is awarded a 3 minute power play?

There might have been a time when this was a valid response but I think those days are LONG gone. The quicker we treat people as equally as possible the quicker we can get beyond our shitty past.

 

[Svnla]

@ jhbball,

You better go and read this thread = http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2332553

A bunch of posters bashed and made fun of that guy stupidity and behavior yet none offer any solution to his problem(s).

OMG, they all MUST be racists!!!!!!!!! How so? Because you said so, per YOUR definition of racist(s)/racism. ROTFLMFAO.

Still no reply to what I asked in my previous posts (I asked TWICE)? Just what I thought, talk big, little action from a clueless little guy. Pathetic.