Why there is illegals doing the work now where I live

[Modelworks]

Today I was at a local store when I ran into someone I hadn't seen in about 10 years. We were both waiting to get some drugs filled and the tv they had on display was set to cnn talking about AZ bill. The guy is a retired farmer. I used to work for him about 20 years ago when I was in high school. So I asked him about what he thought about the AZ law. He said that here in NC it would never work because there really is nobody to do the farm work. I asked him why the farmers didn't hire the school kids like they used to. That is when I saw part of the problem.

This is a rural area. Some of the towns have less than 5,000 people. When you drive around it is miles and miles of fields. There were no illegals here then, I can't remember ever seeing anyone foreign here at that time. When I was in high school you only had a couple options if you were under 18 and wanted a job. There was a store something like walmart, and a couple fast food places, a couple gas stations and that was it, so most of us would work for the local farmers. We would work 2-4 hours a day, early before school or after school and Saturday. I was earning about $125 a week for 25 hours of work. May not seem like much but remember this was 20 years ago and I was about 16, so it was quite a bit. The farmers would come get you and take you home and it was kind of like a little club where everyone knew everyone working on the different farms.

So why aren't they still doing it like that here ? Government. When we worked before there were no records, no ID, no paperwork, no taxes. We showed up, got paid, went home. The state started requiring farmers to keep records on work permits , not hire the 14 year old because it is child labor, and require reporting of taxes. Add to that they also started getting targeted by lawyers out to make a dollar requiring the farmers to carry liability insurance if someone got hurt on the farm doing the work. The other thing he said is that kids now just can't hack it. He told me about two kids he had to let go. One nearly passed out picking corn. Now this isn't a terribly difficult job. The farmer drives the tractor about 2MPH and pulls a trailer. You sit or stand on the back of the trailer and pick the corn that looks ready and toss it in the trailer. It almost always done in the mornings because it gets too hot later in the day.

The other kid was 17 and couldn't load turkeys on the trucks because he got out of breath. This isn't a hard job either. They bring the semi truck to the turkey houses. You set up a wall made out of fabric about 3 feet tall stretched between the turkey house doors and the back of the truck where a ramp is lowered. You then go to the other end of the turkey house and scare the turkeys , yelling or stomping, whatever, to get them to run forward out the door front , up the ramp and onto the truck.


He said it was easier to just hire an illegal who doesn't care about paperwork, insurance, or taxes. They also were in good enough physical shape to not pass out on the job.

So there you have it. This is a really good guy. I mean he did all he could for the kids that worked for him, but the hoops he was forced to jump through to get the work done just made it where he couldn't hire those kids anymore. And even if he could hire them they spend so much time indoors sitting down they can't do the work. So instead of kids getting exercise, learning a lot of different skills , and making some money in the process, the farmers just hire the illegals.

 

[Deeko]

....and its people like that that deserve to be punished.

The only way to stop illegal immigrants is to go after the people hiring them. You can have bills like the one in AZ, you can build walls, but no matter what you do, if there are jobs for them, they'll be here.

If he doesn't like the "hoops he has to jump through" to hire a kid, he should lobby his politicians to change it. Not liking the law is no excuse to break it.

 

[TwinsenTacquito]

If it weren't for our government ruining it for Americans, illegals wouldn't even come here without applying for citizenship. Your local walmart is all illegals. Hooray! Chinese goods sold by South American citizens!

There are two ways to stop this. Get rid of this crap government that has illegally built itself up, or completely ignore their laws. Work under the counter like an illegal. You will make a lot more money than minimum wage that way.

 

[cubby1223]

In large part, you are right, it really can be a major pain in the ass for someone to hire someone else for work! Also on top of all the paperwork, add in the threat of an employee seeking a free handout through a frivolous workman's comp claim or sexual harassment. No illegal is going to file a lawsuit against the employer for frivolous things.

 

[Hacp]

....and its people like that that deserve to be punished.

The only way to stop illegal immigrants is to go after the people hiring them. You can have bills like the one in AZ, you can build walls, but no matter what you do, if there are jobs for them, they'll be here.

If he doesn't like the "hoops he has to jump through" to hire a kid, he should lobby his politicians to change it. Not liking the law is no excuse to break it.

You also need to get rid of government regulation. These are jobs our teenagers and young people want to make a quick buck. Illegals are stealing them because of government regulation. Less regulation, more freedom.

 

[ayabe]

I had a job at a nursery one summer before I was legal, 14 at the time IIRC. This was back in Florida 1994-ish.....every single person I worked with was Mexican and none of them spoke any English. Guy who owned the nursery worked us like dogs. But even when I was a young buck, there's no way a white boy like me can keep up with a mexican on a shovel, those guys are machines.

So while it may have ramped up over the last decade, in certain areas it's been a huge problem for a long time.

 

[PJABBER]

I actually find this to be a fascinating story.

Like the OP, I have worked since I was a kid. In my case it was mostly in factories lifting 25 - 40 lb. boxes of metal parts and doing shipping and receiving of such parts. That reflects the industrial area I grew up in.

OSHA, child labor laws and the like have pretty much eliminated a lot of work for kids. They have much fewer opportunities to gain a real work ethic. They often can't work because potential employers are restricted and disincentivized from using even kids willing to do the job required.

Now, I do think child labor laws are good, and there are more lenient rules for farm work if I recall. There is much room for abuse if they aren't there. But what's the case with someone who is 16? Are they ready for any kind of manual labor if they have never lifted more than a frapuccino or a computer mouse in their lives?

The illegal needs to eat, they will do anything to survive. The farmer needs strong manual labor. There is a market demand being met. It is all illegal and both parties will suffer if caught.

Perhaps the next step to immigration reform is a look at what will get more Americans, kids or not, into doing the jobs that need to be done.

 

[Hacp]

I actually find this to be a fascinating story.

Like the OP, I have worked since I was a kid. In my case it was mostly in factories lifting 25 - 40 lb. boxes of metal parts and doing shipping and receiving of such parts. That reflects the industrial area I grew up in.

OSHA, child labor laws and the like have pretty much eliminated a lot of work for kids. They have much fewer opportunities to gain a real work ethic. They often can't work because potential employers are restricted and disincentivized from using even kids willing to do the job required.

Now, I do think child labor laws are good, and there are more lenient rules for farm work if I recall. There is much room for abuse if they aren't there. But what's the case with someone who is 16? Are they ready for any kind of manual labor if they have never lifted more than a frapuccino or a computer mouse in their lives?

The illegal needs to eat, they will do anything to survive. The farmer needs strong manual labor. There is a market demand being met. It is all illegal and both parties will suffer if caught.

Perhaps the next step to immigration reform is a look at what will get more Americans, kids or not, into doing the jobs that need to be done.

Exactly. Plus, you keep the money in the US instead of transferring it to the illegal's hometown.

 

[PJABBER]

Exactly. Plus, you keep the money in the US instead of transferring it to the illegal's hometown.

The immigrant community, legal and illegal, does send a lot of money home. Whole communities survive because of that cash flow.

I am not necessarily against using foreign labor, I just don't want to use labor that is here illegally and comes here along with every kind of criminal class. Nor do I want them to use the services that other people pay taxes for while they themselves pay no tax.

Perhaps a guest worker program is a good compromise.

This would definitely not be a charity, but an opportunity for people to gain work and for employers to get needed labor.

Using the model of other countries, guest workers have to register and be vetted while still outside the U.S., so there is much less chance of having a criminal let in by design. Guest worker entries might be limited to no longer than six months and have to be checked at entry and exit of the country. If the worker does not exit after six months they permanently lose all future rights to re-enter the country and are subject to other legal penalties.

All illegals that are currently here will continue to be sent back and will lose guest worker privileges for five years as they are caught. All illegals convicted of any crime against property or person while still in the US will have the maximum legal penalty automatically apply upon sentencing.

I think that guest workers should be limited to working in areas or industries that are determined to have an inadequate supply of available labor. Work should be contracted through a regional clearinghouse before they enter into the country. Anyone entering into this program from Mexico or Canada must pay a refundable application fee of $100 to be used to deport them should they fail to comply with the applicable regulations. Anyone entering from any other country must deposit an amount equal to the cost of return airfare to their home country.

Any potential employer can apply for an opportunity to use guest workers, and they can apply in the name of particular individuals to re-hire the workers that have worked best for them, but they have to show they do not have an adequate supply of American labor first, ie during a harvest season.

Employers should first be obligated to hire any person that has received unemployment benefits for over one year and anyone receiving unemployment benefits for more than one year must apply for work with these employers. The worker can have a choice of receiving unemployment compensation wage rates or the wage rates offered by the employer (which do have to be at the prevailing minimum wage rate as they will be employing US citizens.) No benefits are required for this type of employment, only the payment of minimum wages.

Guest workers will not be permitted to unionize as they are contracted to work only on an individual and temporary basis. Poor performance or lack of work requires immediate re-application for alternative work at the regional clearinghouse, no available work requires they leave the country immediately. The clearinghouse can buy them a bus ticket with the application fund monies.

Minimum wage and benefits requirements will not apply for guest workers, but guest workers (and participating UB American labor) should be subject to paying a flat tax, say 10%, which the employer, and not the employee, is responsible for and which will be used to fund the program and provide limited access to public health clinics. It can be deductible depending on the prevailing tax code.

Anyone that has had three or more six month guest worker passes can apply for an annual super pass without the need to exit the country. The pass has to be renewed annually to allow for tracking of location.

I am just throwing out some ideas based on what works in other places. A little creativity can go a long way.

 

[bfdd]

I had a job at a nursery one summer before I was legal, 14 at the time IIRC. This was back in Florida 1994-ish.....every single person I worked with was Mexican and none of them spoke any English. Guy who owned the nursery worked us like dogs. But even when I was a young buck, there's no way a white boy like me can keep up with a mexican on a shovel, those guys are machines.

So while it may have ramped up over the last decade, in certain areas it's been a huge problem for a long time.

Yea when I turned 18 I started demoing houses for this contractor, those Mexican cats were CRAZY with the shovel took me a few months to catch up to them. I've worked some physically taxing jobs. I moved two tons of cement in 5 gallon buckets up three flights of stairs for 100 bucks, oh and did I mention I had to mix the cement by hand?

 

[CitizenKain]

You also need to get rid of government regulation. These are jobs our teenagers and young people want to make a quick buck. Illegals are stealing them because of government regulation. Less regulation, more freedom.

Oh yes, kids everywhere are lining up for manual labor jobs.

 

[ElFenix]

Exactly. Plus, you keep the money in the US instead of transferring it to the illegal's hometown.

money being sent out and not returned is a loan to the US.

 

[Modelworks]

Oh yes, kids everywhere are lining up for manual labor jobs.

Sadly you are right. Kids are not lining up for manual labor jobs and I really wonder if they could do them if they were offered. Do kids even mow lawns for money anymore ? Or is that too much work or something the state has regulated to the point you need home insurance, health insurance and paperwork before you can give the neighbor kid $20 for mowing the lawn or raking the leaves ?

 

[ericlp]

Haha, kids now days are just lining up for the next ipad or iphone so they can jump on the net and play around on facebook for HOURS!

Then all they want to dream about is becoming a doctor or lawyer. It's really sad... I'm not talking about every kid just 85% of them. Just look at the number for Wii's, Xboxes, and PS3's being sold. Granted some of the adults buy this stuff but the majority is adults buying it for kids so they can sit around at home on the couch playing online games plugging their arteries with whoopers and big macs and bucket of fries to wash it down with a gallon of coke.

Oh well! At least they now have Obamacare to look forward too so they won't have to worry about that triple by pass or heart transplant.

 

[PJABBER]

Maybe it is time for us to institute a year or two of national service like the old Civilian Conservation Corps.

If you are not going to be employed in a critical job, like farming the family farm or joining the military, right after high school or right after you dropout of high school, you have to put in a year of work with the CCC.

A modern CC can do urban renewal projects, environmental cleanup and public lands maintenance.

Hell, if Roosevelt could do it, so can Obama.

 

[CitizenKain]

Maybe it is time for us to institute a year or two of national service like the old Civilian Conservation Corps.

If you are not going to be employed in a critical job, like farming the family farm or joining the military, right after high school or right after you dropout of high school, you have to put in a year of work with the CCC.

A modern CC can do urban renewal projects, environmental cleanup and public lands maintenance.

Hell, if Roosevelt could do it, so can Obama.

Oh yes, like the rightwing wouldn't essentially crucify Obama over that.

If it was voluntary and lead into college scholarships / trade school credit, then it would be fantastic thing. Even better if it was random, and the volunteer had no say in what they did or where they went. Sorry rich kid from OC, you are clearing forest trails in the Ozarks, pack some Off.

If it was required, then there would be no exceptions unless you in a coma or paralyzed.

 

[PJABBER]

Oh yes, like the rightwing wouldn't essentially crucify Obama over that.

If it was voluntary and lead into college scholarships / trade school credit, then it would be fantastic thing. Even better if it was random, and the volunteer had no say in what they did or where they went. Sorry rich kid from OC, you are clearing forest trails in the Ozarks, pack some Off.

If it was required, then there would be no exceptions unless you in a coma or paralyzed.

I don't think it has to be that harsh. In any case, it was a voluntary program. And I do think it makes as much sense today as it did back then, considering how high teenage unemployment is.

The CCC became the most popular New Deal programs among the general public, providing jobs for a total of 3 million young men from families on relief.

Implicitly the CCC also led to awareness and appreciation of the outdoors and the nation's natural resources, especially for city youth.

The typical enrollee was a U.S. citizen, unmarried, unemployed male, 18–20 years of age.

Normally the family was on local relief. Each enrollee volunteered, and upon passing a physical exam and/or a period of conditioning, was required to serve a minimum six month period with the option to serve as many as four periods, or up to two years if employment outside the Corps was not possible.

Enrollees worked 40 hours a week over five days, sometimes including Saturdays if poor weather dictated.

In return he received $30 a month with a compulsory allotment $22–25 sent to a family dependent, as well as food, clothing and medical care.

Adjust the pay to inflation and we seem to have a winning formula for the blight of teenage unemployment.

 

[theevilsharpie]

I am just throwing out some ideas based on what works in other places. A little creativity can go a long way.

Your idea for a guest worker program is very similar to the philosophy of the H-1B program, except it is aimed at migrant labor rather than skill labor. This presents a problem of qualifications.

The H-1B program requires applications to be "highly skilled," which presently means they must have a bachelor's degree or higher. In theory, this means that a local worker must also have a college degree to qualify for the same job. Although there are issues with that requirement, it at least presents a quantifiable means of determining whether a labor shortage exists.

Unskilled work, by definition, doesn't require any education or qualifications other than an able body, so there's much less room to disqualify a potential job candidate. Since the US's economy is always undergoing constant structural changes, a portion of the labor force will always be unemployed with no immediate prospects for employment. Since requiring a nationwide-labor shortage would effectively prevent anyone from qualifying for the program, programs administrators would have to resort to other types of qualifiers to determine whether a labor shortage exists and how to respond to a labor shortage, and that's where things start to be come problematic.

How would an employer show that they're facing a labor shortage? What industries and regions would qualify? Where would they need to look for laborers? How long do they need to advertise the position? How much do they need to offer? How much will guest workers get paid? Prevailing wage? If so, how is prevailing wage determined? What happens if a labor shortage exists, and during the term of employment for a guest worker, the labor shortage ceases? And once guest workers are in place, what can the government do reduces the need for guest workers in the future?

There are a lot of difficult questions that lawmakers would need answered, and just like the H-1B program, the people providing the answers are often the people who aren't doing so to benefit their own interests. I can see plenty of ways to abuse such a program, and few benefits of it for the American public.

And of course, the question of enforceability comes to mind. Agriculture, construction, landscaping, and myriad other industries are very flagrant in their use of illegal labor. What makes you think that a guest worker program would change that?

Sorry, I simply don't see how a guest worker program can provide positive benefits for Americans.

My solution to illegal foreign labor is decidedly more hawkish than yours. Put quite bluntly, we already have more than enough poor, unskilled workers in this country, and we don't need to import any more.

Some people refer to illegal immigration as an invasion, and while that view is highly exaggerated, I believe it's long past time to start treating it as foreign policy problem. Presently, Latin American countries have absolutely no incentive to stem the tide of illegal immigration into the US. Why would they? Not only do they get to dump a sizable portion of their underclass onto the US government for us to deal with, these immigrants send a lot of their wages back to their home countries, so much so that many Central American nations rely on remittances from illegal immigrants to sustain their economies. No rational government would voluntarily eliminate that revenue stream, so it falls on us to deal with it.

So far, we've spent billions on attempt to secure our southern border, with little to show for it. Given that we only share out southern border Mexico, we need to incentivize the Mexican government to take some responsibility in reducing the flow of people illegally entering the US. Tariffs and sanctions, and if necessary, an embargo should get Mexico's attention. Mexico has no qualms about securing their own southern border and punishing anyone that manages to breach it, so I can certainly see Mexico helping to stem the tide of illegal immigrants given the proper motivation.

This may not be the most humanitarian way to go about it, but given our limited resources and our desire to maintain the quality of life to which we've become accustomed, I can't think of any other realistic solution.

 

[PJABBER]

This may not be the most humanitarian way to go about it, but given our limited resources and our desire to maintain the quality of life to which we've become accustomed, I can't think of any other realistic solution.

Another great response! And people here call me harsh!

I am more in line with your ideas, actually. I just don't believe that we are going to see strict enforcement, especially if the projected May Day rallies mobilize a lot of participants.

Let's see what kind of reaction is going to happen after this weekend when all the festivities, peaceful and violent, abate and the politicos start taking stands.

Ultimately, we are more likely to see some kind of amnesty program in place. We can hope for a strong registry and penalties for those who choose not to be registered, but that is not going to happen with the Democrats in power.

I have to blame Obama if this gets out of hand. This President is going to leads us toward civil conflict one way or another, from one polarizing issue to another. Elections do have consequences as we can well see.

 

[Hacp]

Maybe it is time for us to institute a year or two of national service like the old Civilian Conservation Corps.

If you are not going to be employed in a critical job, like farming the family farm or joining the military, right after high school or right after you dropout of high school, you have to put in a year of work with the CCC.

A modern CC can do urban renewal projects, environmental cleanup and public lands maintenance.

Hell, if Roosevelt could do it, so can Obama.

That sounds like a good idea, but make it mandatory only if you use some type of government service. For example, if you go through the public school system, you need to serve a year. Or if you're living on welfare or food stamps, you need to serve a year. Its time government stops giving things out for free and start making people work for it.

 

[nick1985]

Oh yes, kids everywhere are lining up for manual labor jobs.

I did

 

[kranky]

It would be tough to implement a modern-day CCC because they would only be allowed to do work which isn't currently done by unionized government workers.

Heck, a couple years ago our local township had to stop allowing volunteers to clean up trash along a local creek because county workers were supposed to do it! Not that they did it, but they wouldn't allow volunteers to do it.

 

[1prophet]

The Civilian Conservation Corps

 

[bfdd]

Haha, kids now days are just lining up for the next ipad or iphone so they can jump on the net and play around on facebook for HOURS!

Then all they want to dream about is becoming a doctor or lawyer. It's really sad... I'm not talking about every kid just 85% of them. Just look at the number for Wii's, Xboxes, and PS3's being sold. Granted some of the adults buy this stuff but the majority is adults buying it for kids so they can sit around at home on the couch playing online games plugging their arteries with whoopers and big macs and bucket of fries to wash it down with a gallon of coke.

Oh well! At least they now have Obamacare to look forward too so they won't have to worry about that triple by pass or heart transplant.

sweet now i need a whopper

 

[Mr. Lennon]

It should be a federal offense to hire illegal workers. Having a law like that would solve the illegal immigration problem immediately. The racial profiling law Arizona passed isn't going to do anything but cost the state millions in lawsuits.

As for white kids not wanting to do the illegal's work...who the hell use to do it before they came?

When I was in high school, all the kids were working either retail, in restaurants, or for their parents. No one would ever be caught dead working at McDonald's. In and Out was the only acceptable fast food restaurant to work at. Six years later, I'm now starting to see less Hispanic workers, and more young kids working at McDonald's and other fast food restaurants. I believe it has to do with the economy. Beggars can't be choosers in times like these.

The point I'm trying to make is that people will do almost anything to make money. I'm sure there are pleanty of kids that wouldnt mind working on a farm or as a janitor...just as long as the pay is fair.