Why the M45 and Q45 are big failures?

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: LittleWolf

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
For the longest time, Audi was the only luxury company to offer something like Quattro. As more companies like Mercedes adopt their own AWD system (4Matic), that will become less and less a selling point for Audi. So, time will tell how they fair.

Mercedes (and so is BMW, Jag and soon Lexus) is trying to steal Audi's thunder. But seriously, the Mercedes or for that matter BMW's or Jag's AWD doesn't even come close to Audi's Quattro. The Mercedes and BMW systems are still essentially RWD with basic AWD retrofit. They do not come even close to the way Audi's Quatrro (is designed from ground up) handles and manages power/traction. They still have quite some ways to go.

But at the same time it is also a warning sign for Audi to move to the next level.

I'll give up a bit on handling for the more naturally aspirated power, better resale, better value, more comfort, better quality, better service, better reliability record that Lexus LS has.

 

[LittleWolf]

xus, BMW, and Mercedes are all more expensive than Infiniti's are [class to class]. Infiniti's have a higher MSRP, but are almost always discounted because they don't move off the lots very well. Mercedes has prestige but I dont' think it is luxurious. Luxury to me means a car that is smooth and very comfortable. Mercedes have sporty seats, and a stiffer, harder leather than cars like Lexus. Lexus LS400, Cadillac, and Lincoln make real comfortable cars. Cadillac and Lincoln use cheap parts, whereas Lexus uses birdseye wood, Mark Levinson Sound, circulating A/C vents, drink coolers, etc... which is far more luxurious than any Mercedes.

You are kidding to say that Merc doesn't have stuff which Lexus has. Lexus freaking copies every damn nut/bolt/design which Mercedes has put out. Mercedes has an illustrious past, which Lexus merely photocopied their design and tagged on reliability/better service to it. I know that of late Mercedes has gone quite downhill in terms of quality etc., but realize that Mercedes is still a great pioneer. Lexus/Toyota is merely an excellent follower.

 

[KokomoGST]

Originally posted by: LittleWolf

xus, BMW, and Mercedes are all more expensive than Infiniti's are [class to class]. Infiniti's have a higher MSRP, but are almost always discounted because they don't move off the lots very well. Mercedes has prestige but I dont' think it is luxurious. Luxury to me means a car that is smooth and very comfortable. Mercedes have sporty seats, and a stiffer, harder leather than cars like Lexus. Lexus LS400, Cadillac, and Lincoln make real comfortable cars. Cadillac and Lincoln use cheap parts, whereas Lexus uses birdseye wood, Mark Levinson Sound, circulating A/C vents, drink coolers, etc... which is far more luxurious than any Mercedes.

You are kidding to say that Merc doesn't have stuff which Lexus has. Lexus freaking copies every damn nut/bolt/design which Mercedes has put out. Mercedes has an illustrious past, which Lexus merely photocopied their design and tagged on reliability/better service to it. I know that of late Mercedes has gone quite downhill in terms of quality etc., but realize that Mercedes is still a great pioneer. Lexus/Toyota is merely an excellent follower.

Try the new E-class... and THEN tell me that is sucks compared to the LS400/430. Sure the older E and that POS crap series called the C are fairly worthless as of now... but the new E kicks mondo a$$. I'd take the BMW 5series over the LS400/430 anyday... it's unfortunate but true that I prolly wouldn't consider the Infiniti... which is it's downfall.

 

[mAdD INDIAN]

Originally posted by: LittleWolf

xus, BMW, and Mercedes are all more expensive than Infiniti's are [class to class]. Infiniti's have a higher MSRP, but are almost always discounted because they don't move off the lots very well. Mercedes has prestige but I dont' think it is luxurious. Luxury to me means a car that is smooth and very comfortable. Mercedes have sporty seats, and a stiffer, harder leather than cars like Lexus. Lexus LS400, Cadillac, and Lincoln make real comfortable cars. Cadillac and Lincoln use cheap parts, whereas Lexus uses birdseye wood, Mark Levinson Sound, circulating A/C vents, drink coolers, etc... which is far more luxurious than any Mercedes.

You are kidding to say that Merc doesn't have stuff which Lexus has. Lexus freaking copies every damn nut/bolt/design which Mercedes has put out. Mercedes has an illustrious past, which Lexus merely photocopied their design and tagged on reliability/better service to it. I know that of late Mercedes has gone quite downhill in terms of quality etc., but realize that Mercedes is still a great pioneer. Lexus/Toyota is merely an excellent follower.

But Mercedes has lost their lead (atleast in the S class). Look at how little they offer as standard equipment on their expensive cars (E and S class). HIDs aren't even standard! Yet they charge outrageous prices. Also look at the quality problems they have had with the S class. People have reported about numerous electrical problems and lack of quality in the materials. Theres no excuse for having electrical problems in a $90+k CDN car!

The previous S class (the rectangle headlights one) were a gem. To me its the last car deserving of the Mercedes nameplate. That said, the new E class seems to be pretty decent. Only problem is all the Mercedes look bland now. They don't have their stately look anymore.

That said, Mercedes is still the pioneer in electronic-chassis&suspension-control (what I want to specialize in when i'm older..its my real interest) and safety.

I personally don't like Lexus's styling. I know they are great cars, but only their older SC300/400 coupes and new GS300/400 sedans pique my interest. I would do many things for the older SC coupes..one of the greatest styling to come from Japan!

The reason I root for Infiniti/Nissan is because they have been the Japanese Pioneer in car technology and don't give in to current trends (well they did in the mid 90s..but now are back to their roots). Look at their adaptive suspension from the 89-93 Q45 (they were the first consumer luxury cars to have this), their unique styling, offering a VLSD rear end, etc... For example, Nissan was a pioneer in VLSD which is why they offered it in pretty much all their vehicles (early Maximas, 240SX, Sentra, all Infiniti vehicles, 300ZX, etc..). I read a ASE paper on VLSD and traction control and they did a experiment on Nissan's VLSD and talked about how they were one the pioneers in VLSD tech for consumer cars, etc..

I hope Infiniti doesn't become to mainstream as Lexus. I hope they can make a profit and still manage to be a niche brand. Like Ghosn said, it should be everything to some people instead of something to everyone. They should cater it to the performance minded folks, sure they may be the minority, but it makes the car that much special. Who cares about brand image, I doubt people buy a Benz just to tell people its a Benz. They don't spend their money to show others, they spend it for what the car offers to them.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: Mani
THe M45 is an ugly car marketed to a middle-to-older aged crowd, and really only has performance to set it apart from its competition - that alone isn't enough. They tried to advertise it as some sort of modern musclecar, but that just doesn't work for a Japanese Luxury automobile.

The Q45 doesn't really have much charisma either, and for the price people would rather own a Lexus, BMW, or Mercedes because you get the name recognition and whatever else the name promises (reliability and service for Lexus, performance and ultimate driving experience for BMW, prestige and luxury for Merc). The Q also markets to older buyers, who just aren't as concerned with the performance, which is the key advantage it offers over its competition.

It really just comes down to the fact that Infiniti has done a very poor job of making a name for themselves. People immediately have images conjured up in their minds when they hear Lexus or BMW, but Infiniti just doesn't ring with many people. I'd say the company needs to fire a good portion of its marketing staff.

Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes are all more expensive than Infiniti's are [class to class]. Infiniti's have a higher MSRP, but are almost always discounted because they don't move off the lots very well. Mercedes has prestige but I dont' think it is luxurious. Luxury to me means a car that is smooth and very comfortable. Mercedes have sporty seats, and a stiffer, harder leather than cars like Lexus. Lexus LS400, Cadillac, and Lincoln make real comfortable cars. Cadillac and Lincoln use cheap parts, whereas Lexus uses birdseye wood, Mark Levinson Sound, circulating A/C vents, drink coolers, etc... which is far more luxurious than any Mercedes. Infiniti is known for its service though. It has top notch service (my extended family owns 3 Infinitis). My family owns Lexus and Mercedes. Mercedes has gone downhill. IT is now a car for the masses and its service is absolutely horrible. They treat you as if you drive a civic. Lexus is THE BEST overall, hands down (i haven't tried BMW, but I feel they are overpriced compared to Lexus, also I have several friends with the M3 who have had quite a few technical problems.). Lexus is highly reliable, very comfortable, luxurious, and the service is outstanding. They will come and pick up your car from your home or office, and drop off another lexus as a loaner. service it, wash it, and then bring it back as soon as its ready and pick up their loaner and leave. All included. That includes for oil changes and other routine maintenance.

I think Infiniti's are damn ugly. Their only saving grace is their very good service which means a lot these days. Quite frankly, I'd rather pay 5k more and get the Lexus.

If you don't see Mercs as all that luxurious, you must not have ridden in a decked out S-Class - it'll put the LS430 to shame. The amount of technical wizardry put into it just in the name of luxury is astounding. The stiffer seats and harder leather is just a german car thing.

And even that aside, whether or not the car itself lives up to the reputation, what matters is what the name conveys. If Mercedes projects an image of opulence and prestige, then their brand marketing has done their job. Infiniti has a lot of work to do in order to build brand recognition and association. Hell, I can't remember the last time I saw an Infiniti commercial on television...their decision to confine themselves to print advertising is just another example of their poor marketing strategy.