Why the FoxNews and Bushies are sheeple.

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Oh but what we are missing here, read between the lines and see what GWB really wants, an agreement to permit permanent US bases in Iraq, a complete immunity from US crimes in Iraq, and as long as GWB&co can get that, anything is on the table.

And as GWB gets lamer and lamer, getting his way once again is starting to be panic time. Its rush rush rush, and cut all corners. But getting a verbal agreement in principle and having the deal properly ratified by an Iraqi Parliament are likely two quite different things.

Yup that was pretty much my point in the post above yours. For the US to leave Iraq completely would be utter strategic defeat in the Imperial scheme the US is currently waging. That is why it won't happen by free will. At the end of the day the Iraqis will have to forcefully kick the US out, and they will.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Back when the Insurgents were fighting in much stronger force giving a withdrawal date would have been foolish. However, with the Insurgency reduced considerably and the tide turned, of course it's easy now to announce a withdrawal date.

You are improperly mixing combatants and falsely attributing a reduction in violence. No 'tide has been turned'.

There is currently a delicate level of 'cooperation' (boy, is that ever a stretch) between the Shiite majority and Sunni minority, and between various Shia factions positioning themselves for power in Iraq. Minimal lip service has been paid toward Sunni reconciliation with no actual progress practically seen. The Article 140 vote has yet to proceed for fear of further dividing Iraq between Arab/Kurd factions. It's questionable that scheduled elections will be held in October.

Do not misconstrue a temporary reduction in violence and a proposed timetable for the removal of coalition forces with a 'turning tide'. Now is the time for the US to declare victory and get the Hell out of Iraq as soon as possible.

Sectarian hatred remains at a high level. We don't need to be around when the next 'spark' ignites a new level of sectarian killings and politically-motivated violence.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Atreus21
OKay wait a second. How would you guys recommend leaving Iraq if not a timetable?

The argument was not against the method, but the timing.

Bullsh*t, it was always the method. If it was a timing issue, Bush et al. would have been debating the timing. They didn't; Bush was against anything to "embolden" terrorists. Clearly the intent was always to remove troops when the Iraq war was "won", but since it's not won yet, why are they discussing a timetable? To motivate? To simply cut and run? This is hypocrisy any way it's sliced.

Because anyway you slice it, we're a hell of a lot closer to a "win" now than we were when Congress was trying to force a timetable.

To pull out then, regardless of the method, would've been emboldening the enemy, because the enemy was still strong. Since then, the enemy has been greatly curbed, making a withdrawal justifiable.

 

[JSt0rm]

my politics don't matter when people are dying. To bad other didn't feel this way. Just get out.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Atreus21
OKay wait a second. How would you guys recommend leaving Iraq if not a timetable?

The argument was not against the method, but the timing.

Bullsh*t, it was always the method. If it was a timing issue, Bush et al. would have been debating the timing. They didn't; Bush was against anything to "embolden" terrorists. Clearly the intent was always to remove troops when the Iraq war was "won", but since it's not won yet, why are they discussing a timetable? To motivate? To simply cut and run? This is hypocrisy any way it's sliced.

Because anyway you slice it, we're a hell of a lot closer to a "win" now than we were when Congress was trying to force a timetable.

Well while I think the idea that we're closer to a 'win' is highly debatable, that's not the point.

When Congress was pushing for a timetable, the arguments against it weren't "we're not close enough to success to place a timetable", they were "you are emboldening the terr'rists", "you can't tell the enemy when you will leave", etc. It seems that by doing this we are exactly telling the enemy when we will leave.

I for one am fine with this, and am very glad that we're finally getting ready to exit this idiotic war. It is pretty shockingly dishonest for people who crucified those asking for timetables before to present them so shamelessly now though.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Atreus21
OKay wait a second. How would you guys recommend leaving Iraq if not a timetable?

The argument was not against the method, but the timing.

Bullsh*t, it was always the method. If it was a timing issue, Bush et al. would have been debating the timing. They didn't; Bush was against anything to "embolden" terrorists. Clearly the intent was always to remove troops when the Iraq war was "won", but since it's not won yet, why are they discussing a timetable? To motivate? To simply cut and run? This is hypocrisy any way it's sliced.

Because anyway you slice it, we're a hell of a lot closer to a "win" now than we were when Congress was trying to force a timetable.

Well while I think the idea that we're closer to a 'win' is highly debatable, that's not the point.

When Congress was pushing for a timetable, the arguments against it weren't "we're not close enough to success to place a timetable", they were "you are emboldening the terr'rists", "you can't tell the enemy when you will leave", etc. It seems that by doing this we are exactly telling the enemy when we will leave.

I for one am fine with this, and am very glad that we're finally getting ready to exit this idiotic war. It is pretty shockingly dishonest for people who crucified those asking for timetables before to present them so shamelessly now though.

Well, whatever Bush or any of his supporters might've said about it, my reasoning for being against a timetable then, and supporting a timetable (or any means of measured withdrawal) now, is that it is NOW a viable solution. It wasn't before. Nothing about that is hypocritical.

 

[Skitzer]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Skitzer

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Skitzer
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Who cares ....... we're getting closer to leaving that fucking useless war.

No, more like being caled a "traitor/surrendering to terrorists/cut and run" if you did. Except now. Now it's ok. I smell a Daily Show montage....

You're beating a dead horse ....... this is common knowledge, even most Repubs are aware of the irony. Can you say " bad administration and policies"?
All this is widely known ......... lets move forward and get the hell out of Iraq and remove this fucked up administration and it's President. It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike.

I disagree, and I'm still pissed off at being called a terrorist sympathizer and appeaser by my president because I believed in a different course of action than him. The reps didn't offer logical and strategic reasons why I was wrong, they played upon both sides' fear; Americans's fear of another attack, and the dissenters' fear that opposition would result in ostracism. I'm sure the reps would absolutely love it if everyone just "moved on" and didn't examine their words and how they treated those they disagreed with. The reps count on short term memory loss to get elected. Unfortunately it mostly works.

I agree with what you say Jonks and I bolded the above comment from Skitzer because this is the type of dismissive remark that really is at the heart of everything wrong with the Bush/Neocon supporters

Oh Bush was wrong about WMDs and Iraq?? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh, Bush and Co wanted to spy on Americans? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh Bush and Co bungled Katrina and 1000 of people got fvcked in the process? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh, Bush and Co udermined the hiring process for US Attorneys? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh, Bush and Co dont want to assign a timetable for withdrawal and now they do? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

You guys can go to hell. The majority of Americans have been "whining" about all the bad sh!t Bush and Co have done and you have always, and will always continue, to dismiss it even though the "whiners" have been pretty much right all along. :|

I'm not being dismissive ...... I'm being a realist. I don't need to defend myself to you or any other child on this forum. Don't stereotype me as a Bush/Neocon supporter, you don't know me. I am so far from that group it isn't funny, keep your stupid finger pointing to yourself. I'm stating a fact. Everyone knows how the Bush Admin works ..... this is no secret and it has been going on for over 7 years. The only thing to do now is take action and move on. Replace this screwed up Administration with one that works and is answerable to the people of this country ....... all of us.
I didn't mean to make light of the topic ..... it is an important one and people should never forget what has transpired during Bush's Presidency. What I am saying is discuss it in a rational manner and not like some pissed off whiner. You diminish your logic and reasoning when you act that way.

 

[andy04]

1st of all why are you blaming Fox, the article does not mention it anywhere? is it just coz its exposing the left loon channels? I am sure they wont be changing their positions as quick as and start calling ppl liars like some racist left politicians...

Setting a time table according to them WAS dangerous as the situation at that time WAS unstable. Its still dangerous to set a time table as Iran will just sit quiet till then. Fox's point still stands. If they change their position, I am sure they themselves will explain you why they did.
You and ppl like you, most of all, do not have ANY right to blame anyone for changing position as the guys you support change their position every hour...

But then again if you have the brains to understand all this you would not have had this position to begin with

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: alchemize
I bet you thought long and hard on how to turn good news on it's ear, techs :laugh:

I think he's just pointing out the hypocrisy. The anti-war side wanted timetables and were blasted for it by the pro-war side.

Oh I'm clear on what he's doing, it's from his diversion 101 textbook. Of course, hypocrisy goes both ways. IIRC, there were a few democrats who voted for allowing this mess to start. But of course, they were bumpkins who were deceived by the genius bush back then...

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Back when the Insurgents were fighting in much stronger force giving a withdrawal date would have been foolish. However, with the Insurgency reduced considerably and the tide turned, of course it's easy now to announce a withdrawal date.

No actually I don't think there has been that much change recently. People were petitioning for a timtable as recently as June (Primary season) but GWB and Co and McCain were dismissing the idea because it was cowardly and un-american and the terrorists would win and all that bullshit.

but I am sure your apology is going to be the company line, and the "logic" behind your Administrations flip flop.

😕 I'm a liberal democrat, wtf are you talking about.

 

[Thump553]

Secretary Rice is agreeing to "aspirational timetables"-I assume this is something similiar to the "time horizons" that were previously acceptable to the Bush Administration, and not timetables, which play right into the hands of terrorists.

Now you understand the difference, right?

Seriously, Bush & McCain are boxed in by the Iraq government clearly and repeatedly calling on them to set firm deadlines. Malaki has turned out to be unreliable as a puppet.

The only thing left to set into place are the oil contracts and the declaration of victory/Mission Accomplished (R) ceremony.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Skitzer

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Skitzer

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Skitzer
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Who cares ....... we're getting closer to leaving that fucking useless war.

No, more like being caled a "traitor/surrendering to terrorists/cut and run" if you did. Except now. Now it's ok. I smell a Daily Show montage....

You're beating a dead horse ....... this is common knowledge, even most Repubs are aware of the irony. Can you say " bad administration and policies"?
All this is widely known ......... lets move forward and get the hell out of Iraq and remove this fucked up administration and it's President. It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike.

I disagree, and I'm still pissed off at being called a terrorist sympathizer and appeaser by my president because I believed in a different course of action than him. The reps didn't offer logical and strategic reasons why I was wrong, they played upon both sides' fear; Americans's fear of another attack, and the dissenters' fear that opposition would result in ostracism. I'm sure the reps would absolutely love it if everyone just "moved on" and didn't examine their words and how they treated those they disagreed with. The reps count on short term memory loss to get elected. Unfortunately it mostly works.

I agree with what you say Jonks and I bolded the above comment from Skitzer because this is the type of dismissive remark that really is at the heart of everything wrong with the Bush/Neocon supporters

Oh Bush was wrong about WMDs and Iraq?? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh, Bush and Co wanted to spy on Americans? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh Bush and Co bungled Katrina and 1000 of people got fvcked in the process? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh, Bush and Co udermined the hiring process for US Attorneys? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh, Bush and Co dont want to assign a timetable for withdrawal and now they do? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

You guys can go to hell. The majority of Americans have been "whining" about all the bad sh!t Bush and Co have done and you have always, and will always continue, to dismiss it even though the "whiners" have been pretty much right all along. :|

I'm not being dismissive ...... I'm being a realist. I don't need to defend myself to you or any other child on this forum. Don't stereotype me as a Bush/Neocon supporter, you don't know me. I am so far from that group it isn't funny, keep your stupid finger pointing to yourself. I'm stating a fact. Everyone knows how the Bush Admin works ..... this is no secret and it has been going on for over 7 years. The only thing to do now is take action and move on. Replace this screwed up Administration with one that works and is answerable to the people of this country ....... all of us.
I didn't mean to make light of the topic ..... it is an important one and people should never forget what has transpired during Bush's Presidency. What I am saying is discuss it in a rational manner and not like some pissed off whiner. You diminish your logic and reasoning when you act that way.

Oh, so you don't like what I have to say about your being dismissive? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

😉

Your argument lacks one crucial element...accountability. Without accountability the next administration or the one after that will try to pull the same powertrip sh!t over us. How can you on the one hand say "never forget" and on the other hand say "lets move forward?" Believe me I will never forget, but that means jack sh!t if there is no accountability at some official level.

The logical and the reasonable approach to an administration that kicked us all around for 8 years is to hold them accountable so the next administration won't try to pull the same sh!t again. Otherwise we will be right back here apologizing for an administration (either D or R) that screwed up all over again...

A good example of this is AG Mukaskey going into the Justice Dept and cleaning up after Alberto Gonzalez. As a result of this it will be a long time before some AG office flunkie hires attorneys based off of their party affiliation.

For months the neocon fluffers around here and in the media claimed over and over again that what the AG office did, in hiring those attorneys, was perfectly legal. Now we know that is not the case...THAT is the kind of accountability we need. And we need to direct this accountability over to the White house.

 

[Skitzer]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Skitzer

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Skitzer

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Skitzer
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Who cares ....... we're getting closer to leaving that fucking useless war.

No, more like being caled a "traitor/surrendering to terrorists/cut and run" if you did. Except now. Now it's ok. I smell a Daily Show montage....

You're beating a dead horse ....... this is common knowledge, even most Repubs are aware of the irony. Can you say " bad administration and policies"?
All this is widely known ......... lets move forward and get the hell out of Iraq and remove this fucked up administration and it's President. It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike.

I disagree, and I'm still pissed off at being called a terrorist sympathizer and appeaser by my president because I believed in a different course of action than him. The reps didn't offer logical and strategic reasons why I was wrong, they played upon both sides' fear; Americans's fear of another attack, and the dissenters' fear that opposition would result in ostracism. I'm sure the reps would absolutely love it if everyone just "moved on" and didn't examine their words and how they treated those they disagreed with. The reps count on short term memory loss to get elected. Unfortunately it mostly works.

I agree with what you say Jonks and I bolded the above comment from Skitzer because this is the type of dismissive remark that really is at the heart of everything wrong with the Bush/Neocon supporters

Oh Bush was wrong about WMDs and Iraq?? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh, Bush and Co wanted to spy on Americans? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh Bush and Co bungled Katrina and 1000 of people got fvcked in the process? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh, Bush and Co udermined the hiring process for US Attorneys? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh, Bush and Co dont want to assign a timetable for withdrawal and now they do? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

You guys can go to hell. The majority of Americans have been "whining" about all the bad sh!t Bush and Co have done and you have always, and will always continue, to dismiss it even though the "whiners" have been pretty much right all along. :|

I'm not being dismissive ...... I'm being a realist. I don't need to defend myself to you or any other child on this forum. Don't stereotype me as a Bush/Neocon supporter, you don't know me. I am so far from that group it isn't funny, keep your stupid finger pointing to yourself. I'm stating a fact. Everyone knows how the Bush Admin works ..... this is no secret and it has been going on for over 7 years. The only thing to do now is take action and move on. Replace this screwed up Administration with one that works and is answerable to the people of this country ....... all of us.
I didn't mean to make light of the topic ..... it is an important one and people should never forget what has transpired during Bush's Presidency. What I am saying is discuss it in a rational manner and not like some pissed off whiner. You diminish your logic and reasoning when you act that way.

Oh, so you don't like what I have to say about your being dismissive? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

😉

Your argument lacks one crucial element...accountability. Without accountability the next administration or the one after that will try to pull the same powertrip sh!t over us. How can you on the one hand say "never forget" and on the other hand say "lets move forward?" Believe me I will never forget, but that means jack sh!t if there is no accountability at some official level.

The logical and the reasonable approach to an administration that kicked us all around for 8 years is to hold them accountable so the next administration won't try to pull the same sh!t again. Otherwise we will be right back here apologizing for an administration (either D or R) that screwed up all over again...

A good example of this is AG Mukaskey going into the Justice Dept and cleaning up after Alberto Gonzalez. As a result of this it will be a long time before some AG office flunkie hires attorneys based off of their party affiliation.

For months the neocon fluffers around here and in the media claimed over and over again that what the AG office did, in hiring those attorneys, was perfectly legal. Now we know that is not the case...THAT is the kind of accountability we need. And we need to direct this accountability over to the White house.

Accountability would be a good thing ....... I didn't mention that because it will never happen. Do you honestly believe Bush and his Admin will suffer any repercussions? It will never happen! A lot of politicians should be held accountable for the shit they've pulled but they will never pay for their crimes they way we would like to see them pay (behind bars). The only way we can hold them accountable is by booting them out of their positions and never giving them the opportunity to screw us again ...... it's called remembering and voting.
A lot of people are very angry and rightly so, I'm saying we need to temper our anger with resolve and action. When you run around screaming and whining, your position on a certain subject is not looked at with any objectivity or scrutiny ..... instead, your demeanor becomes the subject that they will concentrate on.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: Skitzer

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Skitzer

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Skitzer

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Skitzer
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Who cares ....... we're getting closer to leaving that fucking useless war.

No, more like being caled a "traitor/surrendering to terrorists/cut and run" if you did. Except now. Now it's ok. I smell a Daily Show montage....

You're beating a dead horse ....... this is common knowledge, even most Repubs are aware of the irony. Can you say " bad administration and policies"?
All this is widely known ......... lets move forward and get the hell out of Iraq and remove this fucked up administration and it's President. It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike.

I disagree, and I'm still pissed off at being called a terrorist sympathizer and appeaser by my president because I believed in a different course of action than him. The reps didn't offer logical and strategic reasons why I was wrong, they played upon both sides' fear; Americans's fear of another attack, and the dissenters' fear that opposition would result in ostracism. I'm sure the reps would absolutely love it if everyone just "moved on" and didn't examine their words and how they treated those they disagreed with. The reps count on short term memory loss to get elected. Unfortunately it mostly works.

I agree with what you say Jonks and I bolded the above comment from Skitzer because this is the type of dismissive remark that really is at the heart of everything wrong with the Bush/Neocon supporters

Oh Bush was wrong about WMDs and Iraq?? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh, Bush and Co wanted to spy on Americans? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh Bush and Co bungled Katrina and 1000 of people got fvcked in the process? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh, Bush and Co udermined the hiring process for US Attorneys? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

Oh, Bush and Co dont want to assign a timetable for withdrawal and now they do? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

You guys can go to hell. The majority of Americans have been "whining" about all the bad sh!t Bush and Co have done and you have always, and will always continue, to dismiss it even though the "whiners" have been pretty much right all along. :|

I'm not being dismissive ...... I'm being a realist. I don't need to defend myself to you or any other child on this forum. Don't stereotype me as a Bush/Neocon supporter, you don't know me. I am so far from that group it isn't funny, keep your stupid finger pointing to yourself. I'm stating a fact. Everyone knows how the Bush Admin works ..... this is no secret and it has been going on for over 7 years. The only thing to do now is take action and move on. Replace this screwed up Administration with one that works and is answerable to the people of this country ....... all of us.
I didn't mean to make light of the topic ..... it is an important one and people should never forget what has transpired during Bush's Presidency. What I am saying is discuss it in a rational manner and not like some pissed off whiner. You diminish your logic and reasoning when you act that way.

Oh, so you don't like what I have to say about your being dismissive? lets move forward....It does no good to whine about things like this, it makes you look petty and childlike

😉

Your argument lacks one crucial element...accountability. Without accountability the next administration or the one after that will try to pull the same powertrip sh!t over us. How can you on the one hand say "never forget" and on the other hand say "lets move forward?" Believe me I will never forget, but that means jack sh!t if there is no accountability at some official level.

The logical and the reasonable approach to an administration that kicked us all around for 8 years is to hold them accountable so the next administration won't try to pull the same sh!t again. Otherwise we will be right back here apologizing for an administration (either D or R) that screwed up all over again...

A good example of this is AG Mukaskey going into the Justice Dept and cleaning up after Alberto Gonzalez. As a result of this it will be a long time before some AG office flunkie hires attorneys based off of their party affiliation.

For months the neocon fluffers around here and in the media claimed over and over again that what the AG office did, in hiring those attorneys, was perfectly legal. Now we know that is not the case...THAT is the kind of accountability we need. And we need to direct this accountability over to the White house.

Accountability would be a good thing ....... I didn't mention that because it will never happen. Do you honestly believe Bush and his Admin will suffer any repercussions? It will never happen! A lot of politicians should be held accountable for the shit they've pulled but they will never pay for their crimes they way we would like to see them pay (behind bars). The only way we can hold them accountable is by booting them out of their positions and never giving them the opportunity to screw us again ...... it's called remembering and voting.
A lot of people are very angry and rightly so, I'm saying we need to temper our anger with resolve and action. When you run around screaming and whining, your position on a certain subject is not looked at with any objectivity or scrutiny ..... instead, your demeanor becomes the subject that they will concentrate on.

Wth, remembering and voting? So who are you going to vote for? New Neocon AIPAC guy Number 1 or New Neocon AIPAC guy Number 2?

There is no real difference between the 'democratic' choices you have to pick between. Both are committed to pursuing basically the very same policies currently in place...

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Atreus21
OKay wait a second. How would you guys recommend leaving Iraq if not a timetable?

The argument was not against the method, but the timing.

Bullsh*t, it was always the method. If it was a timing issue, Bush et al. would have been debating the timing. They didn't; Bush was against anything to "embolden" terrorists. Clearly the intent was always to remove troops when the Iraq war was "won", but since it's not won yet, why are they discussing a timetable? To motivate? To simply cut and run? This is hypocrisy any way it's sliced.

Because anyway you slice it, we're a hell of a lot closer to a "win" now than we were when Congress was trying to force a timetable.

Well while I think the idea that we're closer to a 'win' is highly debatable, that's not the point.

When Congress was pushing for a timetable, the arguments against it weren't "we're not close enough to success to place a timetable", they were "you are emboldening the terr'rists", "you can't tell the enemy when you will leave", etc. It seems that by doing this we are exactly telling the enemy when we will leave.

I for one am fine with this, and am very glad that we're finally getting ready to exit this idiotic war. It is pretty shockingly dishonest for people who crucified those asking for timetables before to present them so shamelessly now though.

Well, whatever Bush or any of his supporters might've said about it, my reasoning for being against a timetable then, and supporting a timetable (or any means of measured withdrawal) now, is that it is NOW a viable solution. It wasn't before. Nothing about that is hypocritical.

lol @ ""NOW a viable solution""

The failure in your rationalization (and useless defense of Bush policy) is that our occupation is now hindering Western economic investment in Iraq. The Bush Apologists fail to see that in spite of the hundreds of billions of dollars spent by US Taxpayers on the invasion and occupation - not to mention the dead and wounded - Iraq is poking Uncle Sam with the stick with which we used to liberate them. Way to go, Bushies.

Iraq is in the process of renewing long-term service contracts with Russia and China (in West Qurna2 - one of the largest oil fields in the world - and the Ahdab field). Former service contracts that existed prior to the invasion with Indonesia, India and Vietnam are being honored and reconstituted. Ain't that some shit to think that brave US men and women will be protecting the Russia and China investments and development of Iraqi oil fields!

The 'service contracts' awarded without competitive bidding and signed with Western oil companies last June are being 'reconsidered' with terms reduced from two years to one year. ExxonMobil, Shell, Total, BP and Chevron are poised to walk away.

The Iraqis have flatly said for over a year it is time for the US occupation to end. Bush said, "No. Fuck you. No timetable." Guess what?

The Iraqis have said, "No. No. Fuck you." And they are backing it up.

 

[Skitzer]

There is no real difference between the 'democratic' choices you have to pick between. Both are committed to pursuing basically the very same policies currently in place...

If you really believe that would you do me a favor and stay home on Nov 4th please.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Iraq is in the process of renewing long-term service contracts with Russia and China (in West Qurna2 - one of the largest oil fields in the world - and the Ahdab field). Former service contracts that existed prior to the invasion with Indonesia, India and Vietnam are being honored and reconstituted. Ain't that some shit to think that brave US men and women will be protecting the Russia and China investments and development of Iraqi oil fields!

The 'service contracts' awarded without competitive bidding and signed with Western oil companies last June are being 'reconsidered' with terms reduced from two years to one year. ExxonMobil, Shell, Total, BP and Chevron are poised to walk away.

The Iraqis have flatly said for over a year it is time for the US occupation to end. Bush said, "No. Fuck you. No timetable." Guess what?

The Iraqis have said, "No. No. Fuck you." And they are backing it up.

Heh that reminds me of the silly line with a pufferfish and a murena someone here has in their sig. Not bad if something that silly achieves the status of a Fable 😛

 

[Moonbeam]

Liberal timetables are a surrender to the enemy whereas conservative timetables are a surrender to the American voter.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Atreus21
OKay wait a second. How would you guys recommend leaving Iraq if not a timetable?

The argument was not against the method, but the timing.

Bullsh*t, it was always the method. If it was a timing issue, Bush et al. would have been debating the timing. They didn't; Bush was against anything to "embolden" terrorists. Clearly the intent was always to remove troops when the Iraq war was "won", but since it's not won yet, why are they discussing a timetable? To motivate? To simply cut and run? This is hypocrisy any way it's sliced.

Why?

I'm guessing because they don't have a choice.

As I've noted here before, the UN mandate for our presence expires at year end and won't be extended unless Iraq requests it.

The Iraqi parliment must approve any request by Maliki to the UN for said extention.

The Iraqi's have their elections scheduled for November IIRC.

As far as I can tell, all Iraqi politicians are clamoring for a timetable because the the Iraqi voters want it.

Ergo, the GWB admin has no other choice but to submit to an agreed upon timetable or flat-out leave at year end.

Fern

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Atreus21
OKay wait a second. How would you guys recommend leaving Iraq if not a timetable?

The argument was not against the method, but the timing.

Bullsh*t, it was always the method. If it was a timing issue, Bush et al. would have been debating the timing. They didn't; Bush was against anything to "embolden" terrorists. Clearly the intent was always to remove troops when the Iraq war was "won", but since it's not won yet, why are they discussing a timetable? To motivate? To simply cut and run? This is hypocrisy any way it's sliced.

Why?

I'm guessing because they don't have a choice.

As I've noted here before, the UN mandate for our presence expires at year end and won't be extended unless Iraq requests it.

The Iraqi parliment must approve any request by Maliki to the UN for said extention.

The Iraqi's have their elections scheduled for November IIRC.

As far as I can tell, all Iraqi politicians are clamoring for a timetable because the the Iraqi voters want it.

Ergo, the GWB admin has no other choice but to submit to an agreed upon timetable or flat-out leave at year end.

Fern

That has to be it because, God knows, Bush wouldn't break any laws.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: jonks
I disagree, and I'm still pissed off at being called a terrorist sympathizer and appeaser by my president because I believed in a different course of action than him. The reps didn't offer logical and strategic reasons why I was wrong, they played upon both sides' fear; Americans's fear of another attack, and the dissenters' fear that opposition would result in ostracism. I'm sure the reps would absolutely love it if everyone just "moved on" and didn't examine their words and how they treated those they disagreed with. The reps count on short term memory loss to get elected. Unfortunately it mostly works.

Yet, despite all that, it looks like they were right and you were wrong. I know it's hard to admit when you champion something so foolish so adamantly, but it'll be easier on you in the long run.

Yes, they invaded a country on false premise, fucked up the invasion beyond all recogniztion, put us in record breaking debt, destroyed our reputation in the world, killed over 4000 americans and uncountable thousands of iraqis. Then when those of us vocally disagreed with the spending of our soldiers' lives in this endeavor, and vocally advocated getting our troops out of harms way, then we were called traitors! But they were right. :roll:

They are the biggest collection of fuckups that have ever run this country. I know that's hard for you to accept when you champion something so foolish so adamantly, but it'll be easier on you in the long run.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: jonks
I disagree, and I'm still pissed off at being called a terrorist sympathizer and appeaser by my president because I believed in a different course of action than him. The reps didn't offer logical and strategic reasons why I was wrong, they played upon both sides' fear; Americans's fear of another attack, and the dissenters' fear that opposition would result in ostracism. I'm sure the reps would absolutely love it if everyone just "moved on" and didn't examine their words and how they treated those they disagreed with. The reps count on short term memory loss to get elected. Unfortunately it mostly works.

Yet, despite all that, it looks like they were right and you were wrong. I know it's hard to admit when you champion something so foolish so adamantly, but it'll be easier on you in the long run.

Yes, they invaded a country on false premise, fucked up the invasion beyond all recogniztion, put us in record breaking debt, destroyed our reputation in the world, killed over 4000 americans and uncountable thousands of iraqis. They were right. :roll:

They are the biggest collection of fuckups that have ever run this country. I know that's hard for you to accept when you champion something so foolish so adamantly, but it'll be easier on you in the long run.

Those were the patriots that love America. That's why I prefer the America-hater liberals and leftist traitors. We're past 1984 and War is Peace.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Atreus21
OKay wait a second. How would you guys recommend leaving Iraq if not a timetable?

The argument was not against the method, but the timing.

Bullsh*t, it was always the method. If it was a timing issue, Bush et al. would have been debating the timing. They didn't; Bush was against anything to "embolden" terrorists. Clearly the intent was always to remove troops when the Iraq war was "won", but since it's not won yet, why are they discussing a timetable? To motivate? To simply cut and run? This is hypocrisy any way it's sliced.

Why?

I'm guessing because they don't have a choice.

As I've noted here before, the UN mandate for our presence expires at year end and won't be extended unless Iraq requests it.

The Iraqi parliment must approve any request by Maliki to the UN for said extention.

The Iraqi's have their elections scheduled for November IIRC.

As far as I can tell, all Iraqi politicians are clamoring for a timetable because the the Iraqi voters want it.

Ergo, the GWB admin has no other choice but to submit to an agreed upon timetable or flat-out leave at year end.

Fern

I think (loosely at times 😛) that the Fall elections in Iraq are in limbo because ...

1) The Sunnis in the legislature want the elections to move forward (because of their previous boycott) but are fighting with the Shia because of their lip service in re-Bathification, Sunni reconciliation and the 10s of thousands of Sunni 'detainees'. The Sunnis fear the elections may further marginalize them without redress of these issues so are hesitating on moving forward on Fall elections.

2) Talibani (the Kurd) wants the Article 140 vote (the Kurdish 'annexation' of the Kirkuk oil fields) to take place in the Fall elections. The '140' vote has been delayed multiple times. The ultimate effect of the Article 140 vote will be to partition Iraq along ethnic lines (Arab/non-Arab) and further marginalize the Sunnis. (This kinda ties in to the "Biden Plan' which acknowledges the existence of three distinct Iraqi factions - Arab Sunni and Shia, and non-Arab Kurds - and the possible benefit of partitioning Iraq into three autonomous regions (linked only by the 'sharing' of oil revenues).

The Sunnis fear that without an oil revenue sharing agreement all they will be left with are the sands of western Iraq. They are pissed that Arab 'Turkmen' are being tossed out of the Kurdish region. The Shia are pissed that all the Arabs are being kicked out of Kirkuk and that the vote is merely the next step in the establishment of an independent Kurdistan.

3) The 'US Plan' is to further delay the Article 140 vote. As I understand it the Kurdish region would vote on 'national' offices but would be prohibited from voting on 'local and regional' offices and issues. I saw one report where the Kurds wouldn't vote at all this Fall because of the fear of escalating violence and nationalist intentions.

It's actually pretty wild. An election official got canned for offering a half-million dollar bribe in influencing the area census and the rumahs on the internets claim that Saudi Arabia offered the Kurds $2 billion dollars to delay the Article 140 vote.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: jonks
Yes, they invaded a country on false premise, fucked up the invasion beyond all recogniztion, put us in record breaking debt, destroyed our reputation in the world, killed over 4000 americans and uncountable thousands of iraqis. Then when those of us vocally disagreed with the spending of our soldiers' lives in this endeavor, and vocally advocated getting our troops out of harms way, then we were called traitors! But they were right. :roll:

They are the biggest collection of fuckups that have ever run this country. I know that's hard for you to accept when you champion something so foolish so adamantly, but it'll be easier on you in the long run.

What the hell does that have to do with whether or not utilizing a timetable withdrawal was or is the correct course of action? Nice fail.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: alchemize
I bet you thought long and hard on how to turn good news on it's ear, techs :laugh:

I think he's just pointing out the hypocrisy. The anti-war side wanted timetables and were blasted for it by the pro-war side.

Your side wanted timetables 4 years ago during the elections. Welcome to 2008, where the Iraqis are capable of dictating how we proceed after we succeeded in buying them enough time with the surge.

I expect the OP is upset merely because he didn?t get to witness the genocide the Democrat?s timetable 4 years ago would be warranted. Don?t worry Techs, Iraq may still fall into chaos or religious theocracy and then you can be happy with blaming Bush for the disaster. Not all hope for your position is lost.