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Why Socialism Failed

Capitalizt

Banned
Nov 28, 2004
1,513
0
0
This is a huge article, so I'm just posting the first section. If you aren't familiar with the works of Mises, Hayek, or Rothbard, you should be.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard132.html

This article was originally published in The Review of Austrian Economics in 1991, during the collapse of the Soviet Union.

The End of Socialism and the Calculation Debate Revisited

by Murray N. Rothbard

At the root of the dazzling revolutionary implosion and collapse of socialism and central planning in the "socialist bloc" is what everyone concedes to be a disastrous economic failure. The peoples and the intellectuals of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union are crying out not only for free speech, democratic assembly, and glasnost, but also for private property and free markets. And yet, if I may be pardoned a moment of nostalgia, four-and-a-half-decades ago, when I entered graduate school, the economics Establishment of that era was closing the book on what had been for two decades the famed "socialist calculation debate." And they had all decided, left, right, and center, that there was not a thing economically wrong with socialism: that socialism's only problems, such as they might be, were political. Economically, socialism could work just as well as capitalism.

Mises and the Challenge of Calculation

Before Ludwig von Mises raised the calculation problem in his celebrated article in 1920,[1] everyone, socialists and non-socialists alike, had long realized that socialism suffered from an incentive problem. If, for example, everyone under socialism were to receive an equal income, or, in another variant, everyone was supposed to produce "according to his ability" but receive "according to his needs," then, to sum it up in the famous question: Who, under socialism, will take out the garbage? That is, what will be the incentive to do the grubby jobs, and, furthermore, to do them well? Or, to put it another way, what would be the incentive to work hard and be productive at any job?

The traditional socialist answer held that the socialist society would transform human nature, would purge it of selfishness, and remold it to create a New Socialist Man. That new man would be devoid of any selfish, or indeed any self-determined, goals; his only wish would be to work as hard and as eagerly as possible to achieve the goals and obey the orders of the socialist State. Throughout the history of socialism, socialist ultras, such as the early Lenin and Bukharin under "War Communism," and later Mao Tse-tung and Che Guevara, have sought to replace material by so-called "moral" incentives. This notion was properly and wittily ridiculed by Alexander Gray as "the idea that the world may find its driving force in a Birthday Honours List (giving to the King, if necessary, 165 birthdays a year)."[2] At any rate, the socialists soon found that voluntary methods could hardly yield them the New Socialist Man. But even the most determined and bloodthirsty methods could not avail to create this robotic New Socialist Man. And it is a testament to the spirit of freedom that cannot be extinguished in the human breast that the socialists continued to fail dismally, despite decades of systemic terror.

But the uniqueness and the crucial importance of Mises's challenge to socialism is that it was totally unrelated to the well-known incentive problem. Mises in effect said: All right, suppose that the socialists have been able to create a mighty army of citizens all eager to do the bidding of their masters, the socialist planners. What exactly would those planners tell this army to do? How would they know what products to order their eager slaves to produce, at what stage of production, how much of the product at each stage, what techniques or raw materials to use in that production and how much of each, and where specifically to locate all this production? How would they know their costs, or what process of production is or is not efficient?

Mises demonstrated that, in any economy more complex than the Crusoe or primitive family level, the socialist planning board would simply not know what to do, or how to answer any of these vital questions. Developing the momentous concept of calculation, Mises pointed out that the planning board could not answer these questions because socialism would lack the indispensable tool that private entrepreneurs use to appraise and calculate: the existence of a market in the means of production, a market that brings about money prices based on genuine profit-seeking exchanges by private owners of these means of production. Since the very essence of socialism is collective ownership of the means of production, the planning board would not be able to plan, or to make any sort of rational economic decisions. Its decisions would necessarily be completely arbitrary and chaotic, and therefore the existence of a socialist planned economy is literally "impossible" (to use a term long ridiculed by Mises's critics)."
______________________________________________


If you have an hour or so to dig into the rest of the article (complicated but educational stuff), here ya go:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard132.html
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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Socialism failed and is a failed system. But that wont stop people from continuing to try.

I have only read a little bit but it is interesting about the govt setting prices in the market. It is like they realized their utopia is failed but didnt want to give up the power so changed the movement in an attempt to compete with capitalism. I think that illustrates the usual motive behind the socialism movements, control, not the betterment or equality of their fellow workers.

Heh i found this rather amusing

Mises's insight was confirmed as early as the mid-1950s, when the British economist Peter Wiles visited Poland, where Oskar Lange was helping to plan Polish socialism. Wiles asked the Polish economists how they planned the economic system. As Wiles reported:

What actually happens is that "world prices", i.e. capitalist world prices, are used in all intra-[Soviet] bloc trade. They are translated into rubles ? entered into bilateral clearing accounts.

Wiles then asked the Polish communist planners the crucial question. Since the Poles were, as good Marxist-Leninists, presumably committed to the triumph, as soon as possible, of world-wide socialism, Wiles asked: "What would you do if there were no capitalist world" from which you could obtain all those crucial prices? The Polish planners' rather cynical answer: "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it." Wiles added that "In the case of electricity the bridge is already under their feet: there has been great difficulty in pricing it since there is no world market
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
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you are just now learning this? Communism is a utopian phiosohpy in a non-utopian world.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
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I reject the thought that "socialism/communism would be great in an ideal world or with a good dictator".

What is so great about the idea that no matter how hard you work or how talented you are, you can never achieve anything greater then the lowest common denominator?

To me, the only purpose of socialism is to a) give those in authority absolute control under the guise of helping the working man and b) allow lazy people to spite the hard working, as in schadenfreude.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
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Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I reject the thought that "socialism/communism would be great in an ideal world or with a good dictator".

What is so great about the idea that no matter how hard you work or how talented you are, you can never achieve anything greater then the lowest common denominator?

To me, the only purpose of socialism is to a) give those in authority absolute control under the guise of helping the working man and b) allow lazy people to spite the hard working, as in schadenfreude.

while agree with your postion, there is certainly more to be accomplished in life than financial gain, and too many people lose site of that i think.
 

Darthvoy

Golden Member
Aug 3, 2004
1,825
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Originally posted by: BrownTown
you are just now learning this? Communism is a utopian phiosohpy in a non-utopian world.

exactly, and that is something Marx completely understood (e.i. his five epochs). For those of you who haven't read his book I suggest you read to learn the truth as Marx intended and not from the anti-communist/socialist propaganda spew.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,785
6,345
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Originally posted by: Darthvoy
Originally posted by: BrownTown
you are just now learning this? Communism is a utopian phiosohpy in a non-utopian world.

exactly, and that is something Marx completely understood (e.i. his five epochs). For those of you who haven't read his book I suggest you read to learn the truth as Marx intended and not from the anti-communist/socialist propaganda spew.

True. Still bound to failure though, because it is Utopian. That said, Marx's Contrast in thinking has been very beneficial from a Philosophical and Political perspective. He introduced an Out-of-the-box view of Economics and Society that in conjunction with Capitalism has created the greatest Economies and Societies Humanity has ever seen.

I think in the US, from so many comments made by Americans, the biggest issue regarding Communism/Socialism has to do with the uniquely American value of Individualism. Individualism focusses on the Person, while Communism/Socialism focusses on the Community or Groupings of Individuals. At first glance it seems the 2 are very far apart and they might be depending on what the goals of each are, but in truth(IMO) both systems puts some value in both concepts of Individualism and Community.

Getting back to the OP, the Community focus of the USSR and other failed "Communisms/Socialisms" was an Extreme Community view that tried to almost erase Individualism. The Individual can not be erased though and will express itself no matter what the Central Plan is. The Central Plan(of the USSR) may work on paper, but requires all parts of the Plan to not be Individuals. Yet, there was another problem with the USSR, that was that the Planners devising the Central Plan had no Knowledge in the areas they were planning. It was quite common for them to make demands that were simply impossible to fulfill, if they had room for Individualism they may have been able to be corrected, but they had no use for Individuals and thus naively made impossible demands.

OTOH, Extreme Individualism(Anarchy?) would be just as ineffctive. Societies, Economies, and other Infrastructures we rely on work because we give up some of our Individualism. Our Civilization can not exist nor can it continue to exist without a Balance between Individuality and Community. Where that Balance exists is everchanging and is what differentiates the Modern Societies in the West more than practically anything else IMO.


All that said, what bugs me about this whole issue is not so much what the OP has stated. What bugs me is how the word Socialism gets thrown about in other discussions. All too often an issue, like Healthcare or others, comes up and someone suggests something and someone freaks out and posts, "That's Socialism!!". I'll concede that often the ideas are inspired by Socialist Thought, but they are not "Socialism". "Socialism" goes way beyond people working together for some cause.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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Socialism failed? Hmm, that's funny, why is it that the socialist countries have the highest standards of living and some of the best health care, and keep out of needless wars.

I think you are mistaking socialism with communism, but then if you are going to be so liberal in throwing that term around communist china owns our ass, so you would be wrong again.

Want to see a real failure? Take a look at right wing extremism, now that is a flop from Nazi Germany to total ownage in congress and the house last month.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Socialism failed? Hmm, that's funny, why is it that the socialist countries have the highest standards of living and some of the best health care, and keep out of needless wars.

I think you are mistaking socialism with communism, but then if you are going to be so liberal in throwing that term around communist china owns our ass, so you would be wrong again.

Cube, N korea, Vietnam have high standards of living?
Oh you mean the Mixed economies of Western Europe? That is now your example of socialism working?

kk
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
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Heh, for a failed ideology there sure seems to be a lot of people in this country scared to death of it.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Socialism failed? Hmm, that's funny, why is it that the socialist countries have the highest standards of living and some of the best health care, and keep out of needless wars.

I think you are mistaking socialism with communism, but then if you are going to be so liberal in throwing that term around communist china owns our ass, so you would be wrong again.

Cube, N korea, Vietnam have high standards of living?
Oh you mean the Mixed economies of Western Europe? That is now your example of socialism working?

kk


Cuba has a world class health care system known for quality doctors, and vietnam is not exactly falling apart at the seams. Anyhow those are "communist" countries, not socialist. Kthxbye
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit


Heh, for a failed ideology there sure seems to be a lot of people in this country scared to death of it.

People have a tendency to not believe what they see and keep trying the same old over and over. You should know, we have seen it in Iraq with Bush's policies.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Socialism failed? Hmm, that's funny, why is it that the socialist countries have the highest standards of living and some of the best health care, and keep out of needless wars.

I think you are mistaking socialism with communism, but then if you are going to be so liberal in throwing that term around communist china owns our ass, so you would be wrong again.

Cube, N korea, Vietnam have high standards of living?
Oh you mean the Mixed economies of Western Europe? That is now your example of socialism working?

kk


Cuba has a world class health care system known for quality doctors, and vietnam is not exactly falling apart at the seams. Anyhow those are "communist" countries, not socialist. Kthxbye

Oh? The state melted away did it?

kk
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Socialism failed? Hmm, that's funny, why is it that the socialist countries have the highest standards of living and some of the best health care, and keep out of needless wars.

I think you are mistaking socialism with communism, but then if you are going to be so liberal in throwing that term around communist china owns our ass, so you would be wrong again.

Cube, N korea, Vietnam have high standards of living?
Oh you mean the Mixed economies of Western Europe? That is now your example of socialism working?

kk


Cuba has a world class health care system known for quality doctors, and vietnam is not exactly falling apart at the seams. Anyhow those are "communist" countries, not socialist. Kthxbye

Oh? The state melted away did it?

kk

That is utopian communism (Marxism) in it's final stage, try knowing what the hell you are talking about for once. Neither of these examples are Marxist states.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Socialism failed? Hmm, that's funny, why is it that the socialist countries have the highest standards of living and some of the best health care, and keep out of needless wars.

I think you are mistaking socialism with communism, but then if you are going to be so liberal in throwing that term around communist china owns our ass, so you would be wrong again.

Cube, N korea, Vietnam have high standards of living?
Oh you mean the Mixed economies of Western Europe? That is now your example of socialism working?

kk


Cuba has a world class health care system known for quality doctors, and vietnam is not exactly falling apart at the seams. Anyhow those are "communist" countries, not socialist. Kthxbye

Oh? The state melted away did it?

kk

That is utopian communism in it's final form, try knowing what the hell you are talking about for once.

Oh, the stateful communism of N korea, Cuba, and Vietnam is just the non-utopian communism?

Somebody should let them know.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
You are talking about marxism, neither are marxist. Like I said, try reading and getting a clue.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
You are talking about marxism, neither are marxist. Like I said, try reading and getting a clue.

Oh the irony, somebody hold him back!
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
You are talking about marxism, neither are marxist. Like I said, try reading and getting a clue.

Oh the irony, somebody hold him back!

In other words you are FOS as usual.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
You are talking about marxism, neither are marxist. Like I said, try reading and getting a clue.

Oh the irony, somebody hold him back!

In other words you are FOS as usual.

This is funny coming from you. What is even funnier are socialists who try to distance themselves from the failures of the system by pawning it off on Communism.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit


Heh, for a failed ideology there sure seems to be a lot of people in this country scared to death of it.

Well, we'll all get to see just how bad socialism can be if Hillary Clinton gets elected president and the Democrats are willing to back her healthcare policies.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system Link educate yourself, there are many forms of socialism. And modern socialism does not = communism, welcome to the 21st century.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
lol, i like how you just copied out the first line of the wikipedia article for your post :p.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: BrownTown
lol, i like how you just copied out the first line of the wikipedia article for your post :p.

Well it addresses his BS in the first line, it is a broad ideology, which knuckledraggers here in the states do not comprehend.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Socialism is a broad ideology but that doesn't justify what it advocates. The goal of socialist ideals is to help those in need and there's nothing wrong with that. I take issue with how people are 'helped'.

Take an example of a poor man on the street; if he begs and one day makes $100, the incentive is to go back to the same spot everyday in hopes for a similar result. These are the wrong incentives for a nation to give, let alone create massive state run programs with similar effects.

Similarly when I pay over half my wages in taxes, and my money is donated to those in need (social programs) there is a disincentive to donate to private charity or volunteer. This is why you see the most tax independent nations with the highest charitable donation rate; Canada and Europe are taxed much more and donate far less than the US. The same thing with retirement and healthcare; people are less likely to take care of themselves and save for retirement if they think the nanny state will look after them or they will be entitled to stop working just because.

The culture of entitlement is largely what is wrong with the socialist view. Mind you...it's also what is wrong with stuck up rich kids (OP sounds like one)... :)