Why my Mom thinks "No child left behind" is a bad idea.

[polm]

My Mom teaches 2nd grade here in lovely Tennessee.

She is very upset about the "No child left behind" program. This is why;

No child left behind requires regular standardized testing to fascilitate an accountability mechanism.

The N.C.L.B. ends up forcing Teachers to teach to a test. They are given no freedom to teach creatively or to adapt their lesson plans themselves.

Their ability to be effective through creativity is destroyed.

Teachers will become less and less enthusistic as they are , annualy, forced to teach the same standardized material through standardized teaching methods.

On N.C.L.B teachers CAN receive Bonus's and Raises based directly on the test scores. For teachers in many situations, (resource students for example), acheiving regular overall positive scores on these tests is impossible.

This plan basically destroys many teachers incentive to teach. They are turned into mindless robots who teach directly from a book for a specific test.


Just a teacher's opinion. Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter ?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: polm
My Mom teached 2nd grade here in lovely Tennessee.

She is very upset about the "No child left behind" program. This is why;

No child left behind requires regular standardized testing to fascilitate an accountability mechanism.

The N.C.L.B. ends up forcing Teachers to teach to a test. They are given no freedom to teach creatively or to adapt their lesson plans themselves.

Their ability to be effective through creativity is destroyed.

Teachers will become less and less enthusistic as they are , annualy, forced to teach the same standardized material through standardized teaching methods.

On N.C.L.B teachers will receive Bonus's and Raises based directly on the test scores. For teachers in many situations, (resource students for example), acheiving regular overall positive scores on these tests is impossible.

This plan basically destroys many teachers incentive to teach. They are turned into mindless robots who teach directly from a book for a specific test.


Just a teacher's opinion. Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter ?

You mean a 2nd grade teacher is going to have to teach the same subject matter over and over again - year after year? OH TEH NOEESSS!!!! :roll:

If there is no standard for kids to meet - then how do we know if they are to the level they need to be? If teachers can't bring kids to the level they need to be - should they be teaching?

Oh, and you can thank Ol swimmer for this legislation too - he helped write it...
Maybe I'll start a thread thanking him specifically for this legislation...

CsG

 

[TuxDave]

I can sympathize with that on the high school level. My senior physics teacher refused to convert his adv physics class into an ap physics class. He said that the test was too limited and he wouldn't have time to go into the special topics that he wanted to.

 

[nageov3t]

my mom taught high school for 20 years and she feels the same way.

 

[Tab]

I think its completely retarded in general, even if Dubya actually did fund it completely...

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: loki8481
my mom taught high school for 20 years and she feels the same way.

My Mom also taught - she doesn't see a problem with testing kids like this. Infact I've recently talked with a few of my old teachers and they don't seem to have a problem with it either. But I guess they were pretty good teachers...

CsG

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
You mean a 2nd grade teacher is going to have to teach the same subject matter over and over again - year after year? OH TEH NOEESSS!!!! :roll:

It's not just the same basic subject matter. The test is not built around a general understanding of standard subjects. It is based on very very very specific material.

Oh, and disregarding this as it applies to 2nd graders shows your clear lack of knowledge concerning child education.

If there is no standard for kids to meet - then how do we know if they are to the level they need to be? If teachers can't bring kids to the level they need to be - should they be teaching?

there are standards already. They are defined by the states. In my state, for example, we have the TCAP.

as far as accountability is concerned; that should be handled by the schools and not the government, IMHO. But I'm open to ideas.

Oh, and you can thank Ol swimmer for this legislation too - he helped write it...
Maybe I'll start a thread thanking him specifically for this legislation...

Well while you work on the "blame game", i'll get back to finding a worthwhile solution.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: loki8481
my mom taught high school for 20 years and she feels the same way.

My Mom also taught - she doesn't see a problem with testing kids like this. Infact I've recently talked with a few of my old teachers and they don't seem to have a problem with it either. But I guess they were pretty good teachers...

CsG

Imagine being a teacher for a Special Needs classroom. Special needs classes are proven to perform below standard on a regular basis REGARDLESS of the teacher.

How can you tell that teacher that the only way that he/she will get a raise is if they perform well on the test ?

How can you tell that teacher that the only way to keep their job is to do well on that test ?

How can you tell that teacher NOT to adapt their learning environment at all, even if it is in the best interest of the student, because it might cause them to perform poorly on a specific test ?

 

[cwjerome]

polm, that's just simply not true. It sounds like your mom's just mad she can't lock herself in the classroom and teach whatever the heck she wants. You CAN be creative, and you DO make your own lesson plans... there's just a set of standards and must be met. How you get there and your methods various greatly depending on the teacher. Maybe her school district is reacting to NCLB in a wrong-headed way, and she's blaming NCLB.

There should be standards and there should be goals, and there should be positive, creative teachers who can lead a class to them.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
polm, that's just simply not true. It sounds like your mom's just mad she can't lock herself in the classroom and teach whatever the heck she wants. You CAN be creative, and you DO make your own lesson plans... there's just a set of standards and must be met. How you get there and your methods various greatly depending on the teacher. Maybe her school district is reacting to NCLB in a wrong-headed way, and she's blaming NCLB.

There should be standards and there should be goals, and there should be positive, creative teachers who can lead a class to them.

I agree that there should be standards and goals, but telling teachers that they will forfeit Raises, Bonuses, and even their Job for not performing up to standard on 1 test is just rediculous.

And please, to say that what I am saying is flat out NOT TRUE is unfair. I know more than just 1 teacher who feels this way. Other people have responded , in this thread, with the same feeling from other teachers.

Maybe this works for some teachers. Clearly it doesn't work for all of them.

The plan has some serious holes that need to be worked out. That is all that I am saying.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
You mean a 2nd grade teacher is going to have to teach the same subject matter over and over again - year after year? OH TEH NOEESSS!!!! :roll:

It's not just the same basic subject matter. The test is not built around a general understanding of standard subjects. It is based on very very very specific material.

Oh, and disregarding this as it applies to 2nd graders shows your clear lack of knowledge concerning child education.

WRONG. I didn't disregard anything. You can apply it to any grade and it's still the same teaching over and over - year after year.
And if this test has specific subject matter in it - don't you think that might be an important piece of teaching the teachers should make sure is in their curriculum?

If there is no standard for kids to meet - then how do we know if they are to the level they need to be? If teachers can't bring kids to the level they need to be - should they be teaching?

there are standards already. They are defined by the states. In my state, for example, we have the TCAP.

as far as accountability is concerned; that should be handled by the schools and not the government, IMHO. But I'm open to ideas.

Sure there are "standards" but not universal nor consistent throughout. So in other words - a diploma means different things in different places. That to me is BS.
Sure, if the schools could actually enforce some accountability - I'd be all for it. But we all know which group stands in the way of that. Sure, the gov't shouldn't be involved...except for overall standards which the school system can't seem to get a grip on.

Oh, and you can thank Ol swimmer for this legislation too - he helped write it...
Maybe I'll start a thread thanking him specifically for this legislation...

Well while you work on the "blame game", i'll get back to finding a worthwhile solution.

Well, why you play the whine game about your mommy and how crappy she thinks this is for teachers - I'll demand that my tax dollars go to actually educating kids instead of just passing them on and on without learning. You know - actually helping KIDS...

CsG

 

[ITJunkie]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: polm
My Mom teached 2nd grade here in lovely Tennessee.

She is very upset about the "No child left behind" program. This is why;

No child left behind requires regular standardized testing to fascilitate an accountability mechanism.

The N.C.L.B. ends up forcing Teachers to teach to a test. They are given no freedom to teach creatively or to adapt their lesson plans themselves.

Their ability to be effective through creativity is destroyed.

Teachers will become less and less enthusistic as they are , annualy, forced to teach the same standardized material through standardized teaching methods.

On N.C.L.B teachers will receive Bonus's and Raises based directly on the test scores. For teachers in many situations, (resource students for example), acheiving regular overall positive scores on these tests is impossible.

This plan basically destroys many teachers incentive to teach. They are turned into mindless robots who teach directly from a book for a specific test.


Just a teacher's opinion. Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter ?

You mean a 2nd grade teacher is going to have to teach the same subject matter over and over again - year after year? OH TEH NOEESSS!!!! :roll:

If there is no standard for kids to meet - then how do we know if they are to the level they need to be? If teachers can't bring kids to the level they need to be - should they be teaching?

Oh, and you can thank Ol swimmer for this legislation too - he helped write it...
Maybe I'll start a thread thanking him specifically for this legislation...

CsG

Standards in and of themselves aren't necessarily bad but, as a parent with 2 kids in school, teachers here (WA) are all about the F**king WASL. I have seen the questions on this POS and they are absolutely ridiculous. I have watched kids in my son's class literally freak out as "WASL Day" approaches. The whole program here is so f'ed up that every year they water it down a little more in order to graduate more students.
Testing isn't a bad idea in theory but unfortunately theories and reality are like oil and water. Let teachers teach and F**k standardized testing.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Well, why you play the whine game about your mommy and how crappy she thinks this is for teachers - I'll demand that my tax dollars go to actually educating kids instead of just passing them on and on without learning. You know - actually helping KIDS...

CsG

Come on Cad, do you really see this as some "whine game" ?

Many teachers are complaining about this. This is a brand new program that has not been proven effective. That means that we need to look at the situation DEEPLY, and respect what ALL teachers have to say about it. I was expressing 1 teachers opinion, and purely for the sake of discussion, and for the sake of HELPING KIDS.

I'm glad to see that the government is taking a stand to do something. I am simply pointing out, what seem to be, real issues/concerns.

Can you not see that I am, as well, trying to help the kids ?

 

[cwjerome]

NCLB is flawed, but not to the degree of and not in the manner you have outlined. The reality is, a teacher cannot lose or gain money, or be fired based on one test. Like I said, it sounds to me like her district is clueless (or political) and she's duped.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Many of the teachers I know don't like how standardized testing is going because more and more time goes to teaching to pass the tests. The tests are "one size fits all". They would much rather have more time to meet the needs of a particular student.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: loki8481
my mom taught high school for 20 years and she feels the same way.

My Mom also taught - she doesn't see a problem with testing kids like this. Infact I've recently talked with a few of my old teachers and they don't seem to have a problem with it either. But I guess they were pretty good teachers...

CsG

Imagine being a teacher for a Special Needs classroom. Special needs classes are proven to perform below standard on a regular basis REGARDLESS of the teacher.

How can you tell that teacher that the only way that he/she will get a raise is if they perform well on the test ?

How can you tell that teacher that the only way to keep their job is to do well on that test ?

How can you tell that teacher NOT to adapt their learning environment at all, even if it is in the best interest of the student, because it might cause them to perform poorly on a specific test ?

Special needs should not be part of the "standard" test. However - far too many kids are dubbed "special needs" and thus fall through the cracks and are then STUCK in special needs. There needs to be a better course of action for those who need specific help, rather than stick them in the "special needs" wing.

And before you go any further with this line of questioning - you best understand the system. My sister in law is downs syndrome - and she was in the "special needs" area(duh), but there were perfectly functional kids who were sitting right along side of her. Those kids were left behind by our system and it disgusts me.

CsG

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: loki8481
my mom taught high school for 20 years and she feels the same way.

My Mom also taught - she doesn't see a problem with testing kids like this. Infact I've recently talked with a few of my old teachers and they don't seem to have a problem with it either. But I guess they were pretty good teachers...

CsG

Are you suggesting teachers opposed to NCLB are not good teachers? If not, why did you include that quip about your teachers being good?

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Special needs should not be part of the "standard" test. However - far too many kids are dubbed "special needs" and thus fall through the cracks and are then STUCK in special needs. There needs to be a better course of action for those who need specific help, rather than stick them in the "special needs" wing.

And before you go any further with this line of questioning - you best understand the system. My sister in law is downs syndrome - and she was in the "special needs" area(duh), but there were perfectly functional kids who were sitting right along side of her. Those kids were left behind by our system and it disgusts me.

CsG

Well, at least we agree that the N.C.L.B program is flawed and needs some serious attention .

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
NCLB is flawed, but not to the degree of and not in the manner you have outlined. The reality is, a teacher cannot lose or gain money, or be fired based on one test. Like I said, it sounds to me like her district is clueless (or political) and she's duped.

I am not trying to exagerate the situation, but I get really concerened when it comes to our kids education.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Well, why you play the whine game about your mommy and how crappy she thinks this is for teachers - I'll demand that my tax dollars go to actually educating kids instead of just passing them on and on without learning. You know - actually helping KIDS...

CsG

Come on Cad, do you really see this as some "whine game" ?

Many teachers are complaining about this. This is a brand new program that has not been proven effective. That means that we need to look at the situation DEEPLY, and respect what ALL teachers have to say about it. I was expressing 1 teachers opinion, and purely for the sake of discussion, and for the sake of HELPING KIDS.

I'm glad to see that the government is taking a stand to do something. I am simply pointing out, what seem to be, real issues/concerns.

Can you not see that I am, as well, trying to help the kids ?

Here is something for you to think about... they are your words...
This is a brand new program that has not been proven effective.

...

Figure it out yet?
Ofcourse there needs to be changes - nothing is perfect out of the gate. But I disagree with your teacher issue. The NEA seems to be the biggest whiner about this and it seems as though some teachers have once again bought into their BS. Sure, teachers can have concerns about it -but for the argument to be about their pay instead of about the kids is what makes it whining. If teachers would do their job and actually teach kids the subjects they are hired to teach - we wouldn't have this problem.

If these teachers were as concerned about how this legislation affects the kids as much as it seems they care about how it affects them - I might give their opinions more weight than has already been given.

CsG

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Special needs should not be part of the "standard" test. However - far too many kids are dubbed "special needs" and thus fall through the cracks and are then STUCK in special needs. There needs to be a better course of action for those who need specific help, rather than stick them in the "special needs" wing.

And before you go any further with this line of questioning - you best understand the system. My sister in law is downs syndrome - and she was in the "special needs" area(duh), but there were perfectly functional kids who were sitting right along side of her. Those kids were left behind by our system and it disgusts me.

CsG

Well, at least we agree that the N.C.L.B program is flawed and needs some serious attention .

No, we don't agree. The legislation doesn't need as much changing as the school system does. Our school system is the one that needs "serious attention".

CsG

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Special needs should not be part of the "standard" test. However - far too many kids are dubbed "special needs" and thus fall through the cracks and are then STUCK in special needs. There needs to be a better course of action for those who need specific help, rather than stick them in the "special needs" wing.

And before you go any further with this line of questioning - you best understand the system. My sister in law is downs syndrome - and she was in the "special needs" area(duh), but there were perfectly functional kids who were sitting right along side of her. Those kids were left behind by our system and it disgusts me.

CsG

Well, at least we agree that the N.C.L.B program is flawed and needs some serious attention .

No, we don't agree. The legislation doesn't need as much changing as the school system does. Our school system is the one that needs "serious attention".

CsG

so N.C.L.B doesn't have any problems/flaws ?

Oh, I see, they are just not "serious" .

 

[Tarpon6]

No one likes accountability. We need accountability when it comes to education. Too many kids are being passed along without knowing squat. They fail, yet they move on. Parents throw a fit when little Johnny gets held back, even though he's in 3rd grade and can't read. NCLB might not be perfect, but it's something. At least if you can pass the test you know how to read and do some math. When the parents cry and the teachers just pass them on, who is left to help the child get an education?

I went to a city public school in the 80's. We had two things, discipline, and parents who made school a priority. We didn't have new books or computers. Having a child in the 6th grade I see parents who make excuses and blame the teachers / school for their childs problems and lack of discipline. Mostly it's their own fault. They sure don't want little Johnny paddled, and Johnny sees mom and dad stick up for him and blame the teacher no matter what he does. When a child acts up they get their "card flipped". Ohhhhhhhh noooooooo! My card got flipped! LMAO. When I was in school your ass got flipped. It worked. I was paddled twice, once in 10th grade. lol Let me tell you there was no talking during class or back talking teachers or any B.S. It might be strict but we got an education. I didn't know ANYONE in my school who could not read.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: Tarpon6
No one likes accountability. We need accountability when it comes to education. Too many kids are being passed along without knowing squat. They fail, yet they move on. Parents throw a fit when little Johnny gets held back, even though he's in 3rd grade and can't read. NCLB might not be perfect, but it's something. At least if you can pass the test you know how to read and do some math. When the parents cry and the teachers just pass them on, who is left to help the child get an education?

I went to a city public school in the 80's. We had two things, discipline, and parents who made school a priority. We didn't have new books or computers. Having a child in the 6th grade I see parents who make excuses and blame the teachers / school for their childs problems and lack of discipline. Mostly it's their own fault. They sure don't want little Johnny paddled, and Johnny sees mom and dad stick up for him and blame the teacher no matter what he does. When a child acts up they get their "card flipped". Ohhhhhhhh noooooooo! My card got flipped! LMAO. When I was in school your ass got flipped. It worked. I was paddled twice, once in 10th grade. lol Let me tell you there was no talking during class or back talking teachers or any B.S. It might be strict but we got an education. I didn't know ANYONE in my school who could not read.

N.C.L.B has nothing to do with punishment or discipline.

 

[Red Dawn]

When more parents take active roles in their childrens education then the system will work. Until then no special program or plan devised by anybody will work.