Mursilis - Cross apply my previous argument to this one.Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Harvey
Both posts are more like swill from swine. :|Originally posted by: Mursilis
Nice reply, AmusedOne, but probably just more pearls before swine.
A cogent argument, Harv - I concede to the greater intellect! [That's sarcasm, in case it confuses you.]
I'm truly sorry you can't get Brittany Spears tickets for $5, but life's just unfair that way. Clearly, the vast majority think ticket scalpers perform a service valuable enough that they keep such business afloat. As it's been said before, you don't HAVE to go to a concert or sporting event, so if you don't like the prices, don't pay 'em!! Works for me.
You keep saying that people trade waiting in line for paying higher prices, because scalpers and brokers go wait in line and buy all the tickets so you can buy them later. Well, from what I understand, most brokers don't stand in line. Most have about 10 phone lines and 10 credit cards and an autodialer so they are buying tickets before the ticket desk even opens up. I have stood in line for 3 hours, I was 4th in line when it opened, and It was sold out by the time I got there. I am online the next day and I see dozens of sites selling dozens of tickets for 10x what I would have paid. Yeah...they are really making it convenient!
One misconception I see here is people thinking that scalpers provide a service, allowing you to get your hands on a ticket that would otherwise be sold out. However, why is this necessary? Because ticket scalpers make it necessary! If the scalpers didn't gobble up all the tickets before or right when they went on sale, there wouldn't be this mad scramble to get a ticket before they are sold out.
I'm still trying to find the sense in your previous argument. You said something to the effect that scalpers are preventing people from paying market value, which clearly shows you do not understand the term. On the contrary, what scalpers are charging IS market value -otherwise, they'd be stuck with 100's of unused tickets. When a venue sets a $30 ticket price, it's not because they like you and they want you to pay as little as possible for the show; it's because they want to sell all or most of the tickets in a very short time span. If they can charge more and still sell most of the tickets, they will. Scalpers are simply speculators on a riskier scale - they buy lots of tickets in the hopes that they'll be able to sell them later for more $, but that is in no way a sure thing - tickets have a very short shelf life, and they can as easily sell for a loss as well as a gain. Look at what happens when a band announces a second show due to strong demand - scalpers lose customers (not that I care either way). I have several friends who have bought pro sports tickets for less than face value from scalpers because ticket demand dropped, and my friends decided to gamble by waiting until game day to get tickets. The game is played both ways.
Like I said before, ticket scalping is just another form of speculative investment, and I have no problems with it. The Hunt family of Texas was considered the wealthiest family in the US in 1973 when they attempted to corner the silver market, and by the time they were done, they were bankrupt with ~$1 billion in debt. You win some, you lose some.
I'm not a bit confused. It's all the argument your hot air blather merited. Statements like yours and AmusedOne's are fine indicators of your overall ethics. If that's what you think, I couldn't trust either of you enough to do business with you in the real world on any basis.
You da man, Harv. I suppose when logic fails, a resort to personal insults is your last best defense.
As for my ethics, they generally don't involve telling other people what to charge for their own property. You seem to enjoy imposing your views on others (jail terms for scalpers? please), but I don't really consider it my business. If I want to attend a concert for which there's high ticket demand, I either wait in line (investing time) or call a broker (investing money). If I don't like either option, I'm free to not go. Much as you hate it, it's a free country (at least it was).
That wasn't an insult. Believe me, you'd know it if it was. It was just my statement of my reaction to your posts. Read carefully. I said that your statements were a reflection of your ethics. I didn't call you any names. If you think your ethics are OK, you're welcome to them, but I would not do business with you, or anyone else who believes that.
Man, a lot of whining going on in this thread. Who cares whether *you* think a scalpers price is too high? Who cares whether *you* were also unwilling/unable to put forth the effort necessary to get up early and obtain tickets at the lower, original price? Who cares whether *you* don't agree with the way scalpers dispense the tickets they purchased fair-and-square? You as an individual don't set the market--the populace as a whole does. If these tickets are bought at the higher price then obviously you have underestimated their value to other individuals.
One could just as easily whine about the price of BMWs...so what if you are unwilling to pay that price? Someone else is. Either A) stop being such a cheapskate, B) scrape together the cash to pay market value, or C) accept that the product is out of your price range and STFU.
The fact that scalpers do not intend to actually attend the event is irrelevant. When I purchase a product it is mine to use as I see fit (within reason of course)--I certainly do not need *your* approval. For example, if I buy the last box of a limited edition birthday cake in the store even though you really, really want it for your 10-year-old son's party, but then proceed to hurl it to the ground and stomp all over it upon exiting the store, guess what?? Too bad. I may be an a$$hole at that point but you still don't have any basis for criticizing my decision on utilitarian grounds--for me that was a worthy use of the cake. You were the one who was too lazy/busy to get up early and buy the cake, so now you pay the price for that lack of urgency.
One could just as easily whine about the price of BMWs...so what if you are unwilling to pay that price? Someone else is. Either A) stop being such a cheapskate, B) scrape together the cash to pay market value, or C) accept that the product is out of your price range and STFU.
I was/am quite serious. There are a limited number of tickets available for any event. If all of those tickets are bought up by scalpers and successfully resold at a higher cost then clearly the original price was too low (i.e. demand was underestimated).
The fact that scalpers do not intend to actually attend the event is irrelevant. When I purchase a product it is mine to use as I see fit (within reason of course)--I certainly do not need *your* approval. For example, if I buy the last box of a limited edition birthday cake in the store even though you really, really want it for your 10-year-old son's party, but then proceed to hurl it to the ground and stomp all over it upon exiting the store, guess what?? Too bad. I may be an a$$hole at that point but you still don't have any basis for criticizing my decision on utilitarian grounds--for me that was a worthy use of the cake. You were the one who was too lazy/busy to get up early and buy the cake, so now you pay the price for that lack of urgency.
Amused
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Oh Harvey, that stings.
My ethics are fine. YOU are not entitled to ANYTHING someone else owns if you're not willing to pay the price THEY set. What you want to do is force them by law to sell something they own at a price they do not agree on. You are basically using the government to commit theft by force. It is no different than you going into a store, declaring they are selling your favorite blow up love doll for too much, and forcing them to sell it to you at a price YOU feel is "fair."
Who's ethics are questionable here? Not mine... not by a long shot.
Amused
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No, you are. The point of the free market is FREEDOM. Not artificial state controls. You cannot have a "free market" if you take freedom away from anyone, not only those you deem "fair" or "unfair." The free market is NOT "fair." It is free. If someone is selling an item at a price you deem is unfair, DON'T BUY IT. It matters not if they are a monopoly, they will fail if they set their prices too high, and others will take their place. If others are stupid enough and willing to pay their prices, than the market has spoken and all your whining about "fair" is meaningless. Your description of a "free market" is --in reality-- a "fair market." If it is in any way controled by government force, it is not "free."
Get this straight, "fair" does not equal "free," and vice versa.
On the contrary; a monopoly is often the natural result of an open market. Sometimes it's the most efficient way for the consumers to get what they want at a price they're willing to pay. As AmusedOne said, a monopoly will fail if it overprices everything. Besides, scalpers are hardly a monopoly anyway. They're all competing against each other. Each one knows that if he asks a clearly absurd price for the tickets, you can just walk down to the next guy and get a decent price. "Setting Prices" doesn't work, because if they set the prices too high, nobody (well, very few people) would buy the product. Besides, the original event venue (stadium, whatever) is already a monopoly. The only problem is that it's a *stupid* monopoly -- one that sells tickets for well below what it could have sold them for. Thus people are able to profit on re-selling tickets.
They're making it convenient for someone who is willing to pay 10x the original cost. That really sucks that you were 4th in line and everything was sold out when you got to the front, but sob stories still won't change my views. If the tickets were selling for 10x the original price within a day of the beginning of sales, I'd say that it was the event organizers who fvcked up by *seriously* underestimating the demand.
The real issue here is a common one: How to allocate limited resources to individuals with unlimited demand? The best answer, over and over again throughout history, has been "Sell to those who are willing to pay the most". People have been coddled by the socialist way of setting tickets at a low price and having people buy them "first-come, first-served". Individually auctioning all of the tickets would be ideal, but it wouldn't necessarily be an efficient use of time and other resources.
Overall, the current system works fairly well at meeting demand with supply, with scalpers taking up the slack when the event organizer screws up by offering tickets at prices well below what people are willing to pay.
Companies agree to pay ticketmaster X% of the face value or a set $ amount. The face value is set by the controllers of the venue, not Ticketmaster, the distributor.
First off, you say that setting prices doesn't work, look at DeBeers company who for years artificially kept the price of diamonds high by only releasing a set ammount of diamonds. Next you say that the venue sells for well below what it could have sold them for, while this may be true for a limited few, what do you think would happen if the venue's jacked the price up to what the scalpers sell them for? Thats right, not all of them would sell, scalpers rely on the fact that there are people with enough money who are willing to pay the inflated prices for the tickets, what you fail to realize is that the vast majority of the people that would attend these venues are not able/willing to pay those high prices, so in order for your scenario to work you would have to price discriminate. Do you condone price discrimination?
Ticket prices are set by the promoter of the show and/or the band directly. Any charges added to the tickets (convient charges, shipping, processing, etc) are tacked on to whatever the ticket price is going to be, and is generally done regardless of tix price (except when it's a really high price or a really low price). When a promotor buys X number of shows for an artists, they will then decide which venues to put them in. Next, they set a ticket price which varies from market to market generally. The actual venue does not set the price for events.
One more comment...all these people saying scalping is great and you don't need to regulate it...I wonder how many of them support microsoft? I mean, they are just doing a high tech scalping of sorts. They have a product that they sell. You don't like it, don't buy it. If they see you buying a different product, they will buy them out and then proceed to sell whatever they were making. If you don't like Microsoft, you don't have to buy it. But, obviously, it can go too far.
Okay, I meant that setting prices doesn't work in a broad sense, because you could always sell more of your product if you lowered the price, and if you've jacked up the price to such a high level that you're only selling 10% of what you could be selling, sure you're making a huge profit on what you sell, but you're making 0 profit on what you don't sell. It's certainly your prerogative to set whatever price you're comfortable with, but setting prices so that you're not optimizing your profit is just stupid.
Yes, I do condone price discrimination. I mentioned it in my earlier post. It's the best way for 1) the seller to get the most profit and 2) the buyers who really want the product to get it. If I have 10,000 tickets, I'll ask for the highest bidder and sell him a ticket, say for $10,000. Then on down the line, till I'm selling 200 tickets for $1000, then till I sell out at $100 a ticket. The guy who bought the ticket for $10,000 has no right to be angry for paying 100x what the others paid, because he paid the price that he was willing to pay. Was he a complete idiot for being willing to pay 10 grand for a damn ticket? Damn straight he was, but as the seller, I'm sure as hell not going to tell him that!
If you think that price discrimination is evil somehow, just look at places that offer Senior Discounts, Student Discounts, or anything like that, where some people pay less than others for the exact same product/service. That's price discrimination, and it lets businesses make a lot more money than they would ordinarily, while at the same time helping the consumer.
Amused
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Hell yes. That's freedom. The company is free to sell what they own at any price THEY deem fit. Not you, not the government, THEM. Remove that freedom and you no longer HAVE a "free market."
Life is NOT fair. Never has been, never will be... get used to it.
The fact that I do question your ethics establishes that they are questionable to me. I'm glad you can live with yourself, but as with Mursilis, I would not consider doing business with you. That is my value judgment to make.
End of discussion on that point.
Amused
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Hardly. Please point out where I have been dishonest, or have advocated dishonesty. Please point out just how my advocating a free market would in any way make my business ethics questionable.
You are mistaking political viewpoints with ethics, and it's just plain sad that you can't see this.
Oh well, it matters not at all. It's not like I'm losing a damn thing here anyhow...
Oh, be nice to Harv. He's been suffering through a lot of lonely nights, what with all that price gouging by blow-up love doll dealers.
Maybe we could take up a collection . . .
You could try to sell your couch for $10,000...no one would agree to buy it
Ticket scalpers don't shove a gun down your throat and make you buy any of their stuff...
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