Ok... Hitler repeatedly talked about extermination of Jews in his public addresses. Whoever said they didn't know what was happening must have been living under a rock, been deaf and blind, or is lying through their teeth.
Ok... Hitler repeatedly talked about extermination of Jews in his public addresses. Whoever said they didn't know what was happening must have been living under a rock, been deaf and blind, or is lying through their teeth.
3chordcharlie
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- Mar 30, 2004
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Well, the military is full of citizens, but I tend to agree that it was Germany that showed the greatest example of a people willingly giving up their values and partici[ating in something horrific.
Personally, I don't consider human nature as "basically good" at all; I find it to be neutral, tending toward evil (or just selfishness). I see little to no evidence of inherent goodness in humanity. That isn't to say it can't be learned, but I don't think it's in our nature. Heck, people can barely be civil to each other on this board. Hence, there's little surprising about atrocities like the Holocaust, other than the scale.
It would be absurd to net tell the truth about all of the Jews that were herded and treated worse than animals by the Nazi's and gassed in gas chambers and then burned in frunaces to get rid of the evidence.
However, many other people and races have faced similar treatment. Children are being kidnapped and force to fight in wars. In the Defar Region in the Sudan villages are being destroyed, because they happen to be on oil rich land and the people are in the way. Al-Qeada is running around chopping people's heads up and killing women and children because they want to turn the world into one big Muslim State. Sadam mass murdered the Curds and killed hundreds of thousands of people just because they did not like the government or said anything about Sadam or the government.
In south American countries they want people to gather their plants so they can make drugs. And then they complain that they can not gather enough leaves to buy food when they live in a tropical climate and can grow food 12 months out of the year.
The world is a confusing place.
However, many other people and races have faced similar treatment. Children are being kidnapped and force to fight in wars. In the Defar Region in the Sudan villages are being destroyed, because they happen to be on oil rich land and the people are in the way. Al-Qeada is running around chopping people's heads up and killing women and children because they want to turn the world into one big Muslim State. Sadam mass murdered the Curds and killed hundreds of thousands of people just because they did not like the government or said anything about Sadam or the government.
In south American countries they want people to gather their plants so they can make drugs. And then they complain that they can not gather enough leaves to buy food when they live in a tropical climate and can grow food 12 months out of the year.
The world is a confusing place.
Pisabird, that's why I don't think you (I mean you in general, not you specifically) should really try and rate genocides/mass killings. Yes, there are some that were on a larger scale. Yes, some included more "enlightened" civilizations. Yes, some used methods that go well beyond just expelling them to die of exposure.
The truth is, none of them took much to happen. That is what matters; that all of these groups took very little effort to engage in these atrocities. They all need to be observed.
The truth is, none of them took much to happen. That is what matters; that all of these groups took very little effort to engage in these atrocities. They all need to be observed.
The biggest things about the holocaust that seperates it from the other mass murders that have taken place is the circumstances and justification for it. You will find a hard time finding another situation where it meets all the circumstances of the holocaust.
1. A highly organized, structured and documented selection, seperation, deportation and execution of a people done by a government.
2. Selection was based entirely on the "desireability" of the people in question and their "race" (with some based on sexual preference).
3. The stated objective of the program was the elimination of all the "undesirables" in the entire world.
I can think of no other situation where such a program has existed in human history. The Hutu's tried to wipe the tutsi's out but it wasn't an organized government conducted act (although it may have been encouraged). Stalin killed millions in an organized and selective process but he wasn't trying to wipe a specific group of people off the face of the planet and Pol pot and Mao and Jap's don't hit all three of these criteria either. Hitler marched 6 million people into ovens with the intent of wiping the Jews off the face of the planet.
1. A highly organized, structured and documented selection, seperation, deportation and execution of a people done by a government.
2. Selection was based entirely on the "desireability" of the people in question and their "race" (with some based on sexual preference).
3. The stated objective of the program was the elimination of all the "undesirables" in the entire world.
I can think of no other situation where such a program has existed in human history. The Hutu's tried to wipe the tutsi's out but it wasn't an organized government conducted act (although it may have been encouraged). Stalin killed millions in an organized and selective process but he wasn't trying to wipe a specific group of people off the face of the planet and Pol pot and Mao and Jap's don't hit all three of these criteria either. Hitler marched 6 million people into ovens with the intent of wiping the Jews off the face of the planet.
Hitler made reference to Jews as vermin. He even had a movie made that depicted them as rats.
I believe that most Germans did not know more than rumors. Hitler made references to eliminating the Jews from Germany, and many had seen them flee or be deported early on. The scam was perpatreted further by calling the consentration camps labor camps. Even Auschwitz had "Arbeit mact Freh" on the gates. Hitler also never commited any orders to kill them to paper. He not only put the Jews below the baseline of humanity, but told the German people that they were far above it, creating the impression that there was a huge gap in the quality of the 2 groups.
While I am sure some gleefully carried out their work, many did it out of fear. Usually inmates of the concentration camps got to do much of the work, such as collect the clothing of those going to the gas chambers and hauling the bodies out, etc.. It was rationalized that they would meet the same fate if they did not conmply, someone else would do the work anyway, and generally had a "There was nothing I could do." attitude.
I believe that most Germans did not know more than rumors. Hitler made references to eliminating the Jews from Germany, and many had seen them flee or be deported early on. The scam was perpatreted further by calling the consentration camps labor camps. Even Auschwitz had "Arbeit mact Freh" on the gates. Hitler also never commited any orders to kill them to paper. He not only put the Jews below the baseline of humanity, but told the German people that they were far above it, creating the impression that there was a huge gap in the quality of the 2 groups.
While I am sure some gleefully carried out their work, many did it out of fear. Usually inmates of the concentration camps got to do much of the work, such as collect the clothing of those going to the gas chambers and hauling the bodies out, etc.. It was rationalized that they would meet the same fate if they did not conmply, someone else would do the work anyway, and generally had a "There was nothing I could do." attitude.
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
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People do seem to be basically selfish, but with nothing to gain, they don't tend to choose inflicting harm on others.
I would beg to differ. While I'd agree psychopaths are an aberation and not the norm, bullying is fairly common, and lots of people will participate in some fairly destructive acts with minimal social pressure ("mob mentality"). We can barely have a sports team win a championship without rioting.
What about Vietnam war, use of napalm, A-bombs used on Japan, shock&awe that killed thousands of iraqis?
Murder is murder.
Murder is murder.
I would hope that you see that the Holocaust isn't 'just another atrocity?' That it was probably the most evil event in human history?
There is no lever to measure atrocities. Intended mass murders, supported and planned by a state, and allowed by citizens of any state are all the same. Unless you think that killing 100,000's of thousands of vietnamese with napalm was not genocide?
I don't think you read through this thread and absorbed the reasons why we have to reflect on the Holocaust as being the most evil act in history.
I think you are saying the US committed genocide in Vietnam, genocide equivalent to the Holocaust. If so, you are wrong.
Except it isn't. No, one life is not worth more than another, but what is important is why they were done. In war, tragedies occur, but the goal in your three examples weren't to destroy entire populations, only win the wars. They could have used different means, but it's what happens.
However, the systematic attempt to exterminate groups is far worse as a whole. If you can't see the difference, well, I doubt I can say much that will change your mind.
I just love the little children that hear a word on the news and think it applies to millions of other acts.
Genocide is an attempt to destroy an entire group of people. The deaths that occured in vietnam were not an attempt to destroy an entire people. Murder is NOT genocide. Genocide is what happened to the Jews, Genocide is what happened to the Tutsi's, so why don't you learn the difference between you shoot your mouth off.
You are just ignorant fool. Where did you learn to calculate size of a genocide? There is no such a thing as BIG genocide and SMALL genocide. I guess for some people only important part is who inflicts it, and who was hurt.
It was clear attempt to destroy entire population of communist part of vietnam, including woman, children, and anything else on their side, now read the definition again, and think about it...
Not only do you not know a damn bit of vocabulary you don't know a damn bit about history, nor do you have any deductive skills to acknowledge that.
Wrong, why were there clear rules of engagement to avoid bombing civilians in Vietnam? The US forces could have wiped North Vietnam off the map, but not 1 soldier stepped foot into the North. You need to re-read your history if you think the US wanted to kill every man woman and child in North Vietnam.
The wars you mentioned were brutal, no doubt, but hardly comparable to the systematic extermination of entires groups of people, ethnic, religious and so on.
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