Why is showing your ID to vote such an issue?

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

doesn't matter really. 1 cent, $10, $20 for an ID to vote, still constitutes a poll tax, and this is unconstitutional.

Holy shit--I thought we had strict originalists in here--beholden to the very letter of the word in this infallible document.

Personally, I don't really care about requiring IDs (even though there is essentially zero need for them, and absolutely no case where they would ever prevent the current non-existence of fraud) but of course, only:

--These IDs are completely free.
--the steps to acquire them are easily accessible to any and everyone that is granted the constitutional right to vote--sorry if you guys don't like the poor, the crackheads, and the homeless, but you simply can't blow out this voter fraud horseshit without accepting the fact that you very much desire to want to under-represent certain segments of the population. Of course, the current attempts to kill the vote also drastically affect the elderly, which for those who claim rampant voter fraud, represents a voting segment that they very much do not want to silence.
--such implementation is established long before any election season. Meaning, people are granted up to ~4? years to obtain the proper identification before such restrictions are ever adopted at polling locations. Further, replacing these IDs is near-instant and hassle-free.

well until the government provides a pickup shuttle that picks up and drops off at my doorstep, I find voting to be a tax because i need to drive.

Dude seriously, it's not really an issue for people to get IDs. You can twist it to be a poll tax, but honestly, it's not really one. The ID is used for daily use and it's a practical necessity in today's society. Requiring something that 99% of people already have is not really a poll tax. Also the ID isn't just used for voting. It's used for many things, so even if the ID costs some money to obtain, it's not solely a cost for voting.

And plus, you know nothing is completely free. Even if you gave out free IDs the money comes from somewhere. Your taxes.

 

[sixone]

Trained? You mean we need to hire people now? And you think cost is an issue for those that want to commit voter fraud?

How about we just don't spend the resources since it's not a problem?

I'd rather spend the resources on more police, more IRS auditors and more FDA inspectors.

Our election workers are told how to spot fakes. It's not difficult, given the security measures now in place when ID's are issued. There's no cost, because they're volunteers.

You forgot to list your precious TSA.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Our election workers are told how to spot fakes. It's not difficult, given the security measures now in place when ID's are issued. There's no cost, because they're volunteers.

You forgot to list your precious TSA.

:biggrin:

 

[zinfamous]

well until the government provides a pickup shuttle that picks up and drops off at my doorstep, I find voting to be a tax because i need to drive.

Dude seriously, it's not really an issue for people to get IDs. You can twist it to be a poll tax, but honestly, it's not really one. The ID is used for daily use and it's a practical necessity in today's society. Requiring something that 99% of people already have is not really a poll tax. Also the ID isn't just used for voting. It's used for many things, so even if the ID costs some money to obtain, it's not solely a cost for voting.

And plus, you know nothing is completely free. Even if you gave out free IDs the money comes from somewhere. Your taxes.

of course it is a tax for voting if you can't vote without one, and you have to pay for it. It's quite simple. Doesn't matter whatever use it has--if there is any financial restriction placed on the guaranteed right to vote, then it is unconstitutional. period.

Like I said--issue free IDs, this argument no longer exists.

Oh, wait....we already receive free voter registration cards... :hmm:

 

[Capt Caveman]

well until the government provides a pickup shuttle that picks up and drops off at my doorstep, I find voting to be a tax because i need to drive.

Dude seriously, it's not really an issue for people to get IDs. You can twist it to be a poll tax, but honestly, it's not really one. The ID is used for daily use and it's a practical necessity in today's society. Requiring something that 99% of people already have is not really a poll tax. Also the ID isn't just used for voting. It's used for many things, so even if the ID costs some money to obtain, it's not solely a cost for voting.

And plus, you know nothing is completely free. Even if you gave out free IDs the money comes from somewhere. Your taxes.

Actually, there are services and groups that assisted the elderly, disabled, poor, etc to get to voting polls. You may think it's easy to get an id, get around, etc but it's not for millions of people in this country.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

of course it is a tax for voting if you can't vote without one, and you have to pay for it. It's quite simple. Doesn't matter whatever use it has--if there is any financial restriction placed on the guaranteed right to vote, then it is unconstitutional. period.

Like I said--issue free IDs, this argument no longer exists.

Oh, wait....we already receive free voter registration cards... :hmm:

So if the DMV issues free IDs it has to get that money from somewhere else. This isn't really a financial restriction, and it's not an issue for people in the US, and if it is, help them out, just like we help the elderly, disabled, poor with voting.

Gosh I could argue that the fact that I need to take time off to vote is ridiculous. You think employers really expect me to perform only 6/8 hours of work that day? No they don't give a crap. Yes if I'm working hourly, sure, but as a salary based engineer? Please. Your deadlines are still deadlines. We deal with it. So you know what? People need to suck it up and get their freaking ID. The fact that I need to drive a mile to my polling station? Oh no. Poll tax. Stop the QQ and get over it. It's not a real barrier for people.

 

[Humpy]

so...you know that you can only vote at the polling place where you are assigned, right?

I mean...this one bit should be pretty obvious.

I could have voted at any of 70 locations in my county.


Bottom line, voter ID is a bullshit talking point with little basis in reality on either side.

 

[thraashman]

Except no one is asking anyone to spend $200 for an ID, not ever and not monthly. The vast majority of Americans have ID already, so that they can drive or cash their paychecks. Inconveniencing the few that don't already have one is not a good reason not to require ID to vote.

Twenty-two million. That's the "few" that don't meet the id requirements. When the voter id laws first started popping up mid last year, a study was done that showed that approximately 22 million registered voting Americans did not possess the ID to pass the requirements. That's in comparison to fewer than 100 verified cases of in person voter fraud. Or a ratio of approximately 250000 to 1.

And voting is a RIGHT

26th Amendment
The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age

24th Amendment
The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

19th Amendment
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

14th Amendment
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

 

[Ackmed]

where are these complainers of which you speak? i have never encountered any of them.

One such idiot; http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2281763

 

[Juddog]

Twenty-two million. That's the "few" that don't meet the id requirements. When the voter id laws first started popping up mid last year, a study was done that showed that approximately 22 million registered voting Americans did not possess the ID to pass the requirements. That's in comparison to fewer than 100 verified cases of in person voter fraud. Or a ratio of approximately 250000 to 1.

And voting is a RIGHT

26th Amendment
The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age

24th Amendment
The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

19th Amendment
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

14th Amendment
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

^^ Spot-on analysis. Voter ID isn't needed and is basically unconstitutional when it comes down to it. It's a thinly veiled way of restricting certain groups from voting.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

I think if we had an electronic system that you swipe your ID as you come in to vote. Once you swipe, your name is crossed off the list of voters in the state. You can't vote at any other location.

So of course people will go "what if the system crashes?" You go back to paper trail or whatever the hell they use. Basically if the system is down then you have to go back to your home polling station as that's the surefire way to ensure you vote once, and then use a list and crossouts like they do currently.

The fact is we can setup a system, but people refuse to do it because they use what-if scenarios to counter all the time. Institute backup systems and fallbacks. At the very worst you're going back to what we have right now, but a properly setup system shouldn't waste much time at all.

 

[Incorruptible]

Its an issue because they want illegal immigrants to vote so they can win

 

[MetalMat]

Twenty-two million. That's the "few" that don't meet the id requirements. When the voter id laws first started popping up mid last year, a study was done that showed that approximately 22 million registered voting Americans did not possess the ID to pass the requirements. That's in comparison to fewer than 100 verified cases of in person voter fraud. Or a ratio of approximately 250000 to 1.

And voting is a RIGHT

26th Amendment
The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age

24th Amendment
The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

19th Amendment
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

14th Amendment
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

Don't you need to be a citizen of the United States to have these rights?

 

[Brainonska511]

I think if we had an electronic system that you swipe your ID as you come in to vote. Once you swipe, your name is crossed off the list of voters in the state. You can't vote at any other location.

States allow people to vote in multiple locations?

NYS requires that you go to your assigned polling location in order to vote. You give them your name and street, sign next to your signature (and then they compare it, but I guess some master-forger could do it all on the fly ), and then you get your ballot.

 

[DominionSeraph]

We live in a Constitutional Republic. The "Constitutional" part places limits on the tyranny of the majority -- the force for the status quo. The right to vote is guaranteed by the Constitution, and for that right to be equally enforced, the force for the status quo cannot be allowed to put hoops in front of it that filter for people who follow the status quo.

The right that a person has to vote is not dependent on their having no issue with following the procedure required to get a mobocracy-issued ID. Someone with paranoid personality disorder still has the right to vote. The most put-upon minority still has the right to vote. And their vote is EQUAL. It is guaranteed. So their right to get to the voting booth without molestation must be enforced.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Gosh I could argue that the fact that I need to take time off to vote is ridiculous. You think employers really expect me to perform only 6/8 hours of work that day? No they don't give a crap. Yes if I'm working hourly, sure, but as a salary based engineer? Please. Your deadlines are still deadlines. We deal with it. So you know what? People need to suck it up and get their freaking ID. The fact that I need to drive a mile to my polling station? Oh no. Poll tax. Stop the QQ and get over it. It's not a real barrier for people.

You're comparing your own personal hardships to a requirement that would be asked of everybody. No one is making you drive to the polling station; you could walk, ride a bike, take the bus, or take any number of other methods to get there. So gas as a poll tax? No. Similarly, no one is saying that you're required to take time off from work; that's specific to you. Again, not a poll tax because it is not a state requirement, it's just your particular set of circumstances with a specific employer.

But requiring an ID is different. You're sayng that everybody must have this document in order to vote. If you charge money for the ID, any amount, you're placing a specific price on the right to vote (can't vote without it). And that's illegal.

If you want a voter ID requirement, they need to be provided by the state, free of charge. Which means they come out of taxes. Which means the state has less funding available for other areas of governance. Now when you pair that with the fact that an extremely tiny minority of cases of voter fraud would be prevented with voter ID, it becomes a case where you're spending literally millions of dollars per individual case of fraud you may be preventing. From a simple cost/benefit perspective, it is a colossal waste of money. You're better off burning that money in a giant bonfire to keep your homeless warm in the winter. But that's up to each individual state.

 

[zinfamous]

I could have voted at any of 70 locations in my county.


Bottom line, voter ID is a bullshit talking point with little basis in reality on either side.

How is that possible? I know of no place that allows in-person voting anywhere other than your assigned polling location.

Now, my mail-in ballot arrived at my door on the day if was due to be mailed, so I had to drop mine off at a polling location yesterday. For this sealed ballot, I was able to drop it off anywhere within my county.


as for the "this would not be a tax" crowd: I wonder how Chief Justice Roberts would interpret this issue.... :hmm:

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

You're comparing your own personal hardships to a requirement that would be asked of everybody. No one is making you drive to the polling station; you could walk, ride a bike, take the bus, or take any number of other methods to get there. So gas as a poll tax? No. Similarly, no one is saying that you're required to take time off from work; that's specific to you. Again, not a poll tax because it is not a state requirement, it's just your particular set of circumstances with a specific employer.

But requiring an ID is different. You're sayng that everybody must have this document in order to vote. If you charge money for the ID, any amount, you're placing a specific price on the right to vote (can't vote without it). And that's illegal.

If you want a voter ID requirement, they need to be provided by the state, free of charge. Which means they come out of taxes. Which means the state has less funding available for other areas of governance. Now when you pair that with the fact that an extremely tiny minority of cases of voter fraud would be prevented with voter ID, it becomes a case where you're spending literally millions of dollars per individual case of fraud you may be preventing. From a simple cost/benefit perspective, it is a colossal waste of money. You're better off burning that money in a giant bonfire to keep your homeless warm in the winter. But that's up to each individual state.

My personal hardships are BS. You realize that. It's at the same level of hardship to provide ID. It's not so much that you can't vote, you just need to provide ID in order to make sure that this isn't a fraudulent vote, and that you aren't a repeat voter.

Voter ID isn't just about combating fraud. It's about setting up a system with traceability. You can use this as a stepping stone to allowing online votes.

 

[ivwshane]

I voted yesterday at my required polling place, no ID required.

If you want to require voter ID's for a crime that virtually non existent and won't address where the actual fraud comes from then fine, just make the process of acquiring such an ID free. So if your state requires a birth certificate to get the ID then the birth certificate should be free too.

The states that have voter ID laws that went to the supreme court and had the law upheld were upheld because there were reasonable and free requirements in place in order to obtain an ID. The states that had the voter ID laws struck down didn't do this.

 

[DominionSeraph]

Don't you need to be a citizen of the United States to have these rights?

The courts are pragmatic and weigh accordingly. If a limitation placed on the government in order to protect a right is so stringent that it is causing problems, they will relax it to allow the government to act; such as Free Speech not protecting yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater.

The amount of in-person voter fraud is nowhere near significant enough to warrant actions that are likely to disenfranchising citizens. The system works as-is, so the courts are very suspicious of and place a high burden on those who want procedures that could possibly limit turnout. Maximizing the turnout and thus ensuring that nobody's rights are being trampled is more important at this point than a couple hundred fraudulent ballots.

And as for non-citizens voting, as they would likely be resident non-citizens, the rather arbitrary appellation of "citizen" is almost completely non-pertinent to the rationale of democracy.

 

[pauldun170]

States allow people to vote in multiple locations?

NYS requires that you go to your assigned polling location in order to vote. You give them your name and street, sign next to your signature (and then they compare it, but I guess some master-forger could do it all on the fly ), and then you get your ballot.

I'm guessing the other states need to feed the paranoia thing.
Big scary <insert boogeyman here> trying to steal our country.
Guess that's why "Take our country back" slogans are so popular.

Must freak some folks out that us evil northeast elitist can show up to the polls in a bathrobe and just vote after signing next to your name.

If I were required to use my ID as proof, I probably wouldn't be allowed to vote. My drivers license picture looks almost nothing like me.
whose to say I'm not a shape shifter bad at shape shifting but really good at pick pocketing.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I'm guessing the other states need to feed the paranoia thing.
Big scary <insert boogeyman here> trying to steal our country.
Guess that's why "Take our country back" slogans are so popular.

Must freak some folks out that us evil northeast elitist can show up to the polls in a bathrobe and just vote after signing next to your name.

If I were required to use my ID as proof, I probably wouldn't be allowed to vote. My drivers license picture looks almost nothing like me.
whose to say I'm not a shape shifter bad at shape shifting but really good at pick pocketing.

You could always vote by mail. No voter id required. Oh noes!!!! Voter Fraud!!!!

 

[Brainonska511]

You could always vote by mail. No voter id required. Oh noes!!!! Voter Fraud!!!!

But then you'll be using the mail to commit a crime and the postmaster general will come after you....

 

[MetalMat]

The courts are pragmatic and weigh accordingly. If a limitation placed on the government in order to protect a right is so stringent that it is causing problems, they will relax it to allow the government to act; such as Free Speech not protecting yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater.

The amount of in-person voter fraud is nowhere near significant enough to warrant actions that are likely to disenfranchising citizens. The system works as-is, so the courts are very suspicious of and place a high burden on those who want procedures that could possibly limit turnout. Maximizing the turnout and thus ensuring that nobody's rights are being trampled is more important at this point than a couple hundred fraudulent ballots.

And as for non-citizens voting, as they would likely be resident non-citizens, the rather arbitrary appellation of "citizen" is almost completely non-pertinent to the rationale of democracy.

So you don't need to be a citizen of the United States to vote? Sounds great

So by your logic the fact that people need identification would slow the process down. We need as many people voting as possible. People are just being totally held up because people cant show identification of the fact that they do indeed live in the United States when every other thing you do involving the government requires you to have an id. Give me a break

 

[ModerateRepZero]

I don't have a problem with requiring ID to vote, so long as:

- it's done well before the election that it can be considered, and known to people

- there are reasonable allowances made for people who may not have adequate ID on hand (ie. college students, the elderly).

most voting restrictions passed by Republicans failed one or both of those characteristics....it was hard not to see it as a deliberate strategy to lower voter turnout.