Creig (et al) -- I value your membership here, and I don't want to lose you.
I don't want to lose anyone. Especially not for Rollo -- his return is not worth losing a single upstanding member of this community.
But the fact is that AT made the decision to allow him to return just as we decided to allow other banned members to return.
Our probationary allowances in place state that he needs to disclose his relationship with NVIDIA. Many people have said they are unsatisfied with the clarity of his sig. As soon as I get done posting this, his sig will be changed to read:
As an NVIDIA Focus Group member, I am given free graphics cards and motherboards by NVIDIA Corp.
This will be the first thing in his sig and it will be bolded. This is accurate and complete.
To fill you guys in, members of the NVIDIA Focus Group evaluate software, hardware, etc. and provide NVIDIA feedback for the purpose of making their products better. This is in no way a viral marketing group. In fact, NVIDIA now requires focus group members identify themselves on forums and they actively discourage members from trying to sell nvidia products or lie in order to promote nvidia. Shilling damages NVIDIA's image, and they in no way support or encourage it. This is not what Rollo is telling us, this is straight from NVIDIA. We would never knowingly allow any viral marketer to come here and post. We will not encourage shilling.
I am confident that Rollo could post on how amazing the 3870x2 is without any kind of threat to his focus group work. NVIDIA does not expect or even want Rollo to post anything in particular about nvidia products. They don't monitor or require anything of his communications.
Rollo is not compensated to advocate for NVIDIA.
Whether or not he once was through AEG is a whole other issue. Honestly, it doesn't matter whether or not AEG did implement viral marketing schemes. Rollo lied about his involvement with them to the mods and people were banned for calling him out on something he denied that was true. He promoted NVIDIA products without fully disclosing his relationship to AEG or to NVIDIA.
By the way Rollo, don't defend yourself -- it makes you look like an ass. Saying you have a "friend" at NVIDIA does not imply a personal relationship with them. You were rightfully banned before. You've gotten a second chance; you haven't been forgiven until you earn it.
But all that is in the past. Whether you think he was compensated to shill for NVIDIA in the past, this could no longer be the case based on his relationship with NVIDIA.
The reason we are requiring Rollo to disclose a relationship with NVIDIA that has nothing to do with PR, shilling, or selling products is because of his past. The condition of his return is full disclosure on all the aspects of his relationship with NVIDIA regardless of the fact that those relationships do not inherently mean he will be biased.
But this is again a special situation. Those who where here feel strongly that any relationship Rollo has with NVIDIA will imply a bias towards them because of how adamantly Rollo denied his relationships in the past and because of how he treated the membership who were only trying to protect themselves.
We are not willing to state unequivocally that Rollo is biased, but we realize that it would be wise to allude to a potential bias based on the situation.
therefore, henceforth shall Rollo be known as nRollo ... effective as soon as he gets back to me via PM or email so that I'm sure he knows his username is changing.
The mods and I feel this does a good job of relating to anyone at all familiar with graphics that Rollo has an NVIDIA association and people will be able to judge his words accordingly whether they have sigs turned off or not or are familiar with his past or not.
We debated giving him a new title, but decided against that as we feel titles are better suited as rewards for members rather than deterrents. We reserve the right to change that policy in the future, but for now that is where we stand.
Rollo is not here because of AnandTech's relationship with NVIDIA. We have long held the philosophy that every hardware maker can suck it if they think they can push us around with anything. AnandTech has been through times where we've been denied hardware. We've had people pull ad campaigns. We
DO NOT EVER let anything like that affect anything we do. If we aren't provided hardware we go out and buy it. If one manufacturer pulls an ad campaign, someone else will run one. No company has any leverage over AnandTech of any kind. Period. No matter what has been said about corruption in the industry, I am proud to be part of a company that has never and will never take part in any of that bullshit.
NVIDIA did not *want* Rollo to come back; they passed along to us his desire to return and asked us if we cared. As many have pointed out -- if NVIDIA wanted someone to promote them they could pick from any of thousands of other people. But the fact is that Rollo is not here to promote NVIDIA at all. If that was the case in the past, that's one thing, but it IS NOT the case now.
Now on to Creig's post ...
Originally posted by: Creig
Originally posted by: Rollo
You should not trust anything you read on the forums, because people often have agendas, viral marketing included.
I can't believe that you have the unmitigated GALL to say this after all lying and viral marketing you did before your ban. Back then it was "Trust me! I wouldn't lie to you. I'm neutral. I don't work for Nvidia, I just have a 'friend' there". Now that you've been exposed as having your OWN personal agenda for supporting Nvidia and downplaying ATI, your tune has changed to "You shouldn't trust anybody".
You'll say whatever you have to in order keep those free video cards, motherboards and other perks rolling in, won't you? Well, if people should not trust anything they read on the forums, then you should just leave right now since nobody should believe anything you have to say either.
No matter what happened in the past, there is nothing Rollo needs to say to keep his free hardware rolling in.
I have a little demonstation here for you Derek, to show you WHY Rollo should not be welcome back here. Watch closely:
Originally posted by: Rollo
t's been noted in this thread that my "hardware came from AEG". AEG does not make hardware. Any they passed along came from NVIDIA. Most of what I received was shipped directly from NVIDIA, and I dealt with people at NVIDIA as much as AEG.
A person reads this and thinks "Hmmm... that's true. Okay, I can see where he's coming from now". But when you stop think about it a little deeper, you'll go "Hey, wait a minute.
MY Nvidia hardware didn't come from BUY.com. BUY.com doesn't make hardware any more than AEG does. It was simply "passed along" from Nvidia as well, except that I had to pay for mine". He got his hardware for free by performing viral marketing for AEG. Payment was in the form of free hardware sent directly from Nvidia.
First off, the distinction Rollo was trying to make is irrelevant, even if it is accurate. But I think that is completely transparent. I don't think your explanation says any more than his does. And I think neither adds anything to the fact that he got stuff from NVIDIA and participated in programs by NVIDIA and AEG.
Regardless, this is all over and done with -- Rollo is not part of a viral marketing program now regardless of any past relationship with AEG.
Originally posted by: Rollo
This is the last I'm going to say on this topic, people can decide on their own if it's possible for me to post valid information while receiving free parts for review.
The online websites do.
Another statement that on the surface seems to make sense. He's right, online websites DO receive free parts all the time. But, hold on a minute there... Online websites receive products from ALL manufacturers to review. Therefore they're not beholden to please any one company in particular, unlike Rollo. He's attempting to fool us into thinking that he's just as trustworthy as online review websites.
while you may be right that online review sites receive hardware from many sources, you would be wrong if you thought all online review sites were unbiased. Rollo's defense is a poor one, especially considering issues like the ones surrounding Tom's Hardware and Gamespot.
but your assertion is just as invalid -- just because someone gives me something does not inherently mean i am going to be biased towards them.
Originally posted by: Rollo
The decision to disclose AEG association was not mine to make, and the vote from the group was to not disclose at the time. Given what happened, I can see why some had reservations.
Once again, we have a statement that, on the surface, looks to read "I didn't WANT to hide my AEG affiliation, but it wasn't up to me".
he never said that and his statement does not imply it. it says that his lying (whether he wanted to or not) was tied to a broader issue of a group decision to lie. This, in my opinion, is worse. One person is a liar. Multiple people deciding to lie about an issue is a conspiracy. And certainly he can see why some people had reservations -- what they were doing was not appropriate and was not something people would want them to do. and they knew it so they decided to hide it.
if you think Rollo's statements here are a good defense ... well ... I guess I'd disagree.
Analyze it a bit deeper. He says the decision was not his to make and that it was the group who voted not to disclose it. So it was up to the individual members and wasn't a contract that dictated this silence. What he doesn't say is which way he voted, to disclose or to remain silent. Given his attempt to get people banned for even accusing him of being an AEG member, I'm inclined to believe he voted to remain silent as well. So he's attempting to shift the blame from himself to the group.
none of this matters -- we are all personally responsible for all of our actions always. the decision as to whether the group was going to try to conceal anything might not have been his alone to make -- but his decision to aggressively lie to AT was his to make. He made the wrong choice. He was banned for it.
But our policy right now is to give members who were banned before the new guidelines and moderation policies were set in place as second chance whether or not they were appropriately banned in the first place.
Also, it appears that since they could vote to remain silent or not, he was under no legal obligation to do so. So he could have come out with the truth at any time on his own. But he didn't. It wasn't until it was REVEALED that he was an AEG member that he admitted it. If the silence behind his involvement with AEG was bothering him THAT MUCH, he could have quit at any time. But he stuck with them until the very end because apparently the freebies provided were worth sacrificing his honesty and integrity for.
Refer to my previous statement -- yes he was acted inappropriately. Everyone here knows that. He was banned for it. He also apologized for it.
But again it's not relevant. The AEG situation no longer exists. Rollo is no longer working with some clandestine group. He is fully disclosing all his relationships that have to do with NVIDIA, and he is not receiving hardware to push NV products.
This is exactly what I was afraid would happen. Can't you see it, too, Derek? Rollo is infamous for his half-truths. He makes statements that seem innocuous and to make sense. It isn't until you stop for a few minutes and REALLY consider what he said that you can see through to the truth. This is one of the reasons why he should not be allowed to return.
Like I mentioned before, Rollo shouldn't defend himself; it makes him look like an ass. I disagree with your assessment of his comment. I think he was accurate in portraying the fact that he was a douche and I think denying that he hid his relationship with NVIDIA because people should have picked up on the fact that he was his "friend" further undermines his credibility with respect to the situation that got him banned before.
But ... again ... that situation no longer exists. He is no longer hiding anything about his present arrangement -- and I wouldn't take his word for it either. This has NVIDIA confirmation and independent confirmation. We would not have let him come back if we didn't know exactly in what capacity he operates for NVIDIA.
You said that part of the reason he was allowed back is to provide Nvidia information to us. If we can't believe everything he says, then what good is he doing here representing Nvidia? The ONLY way we could believe a manufacturer representative is if they've shown themselves to have impeccable honesty and integrity in the past. Rollo possesses neither virtue.
He is not an NVIDIA representative. He's not paid or given hardware to operate in that capacity. What he does on these boards is on his own time and has nothing to do with NVIDIA. He does have access to information, and he will be able to share it with us. Really, it's almost better that we have suspicion -- members will be more thorough in their fact checking and it's likely that Rollo will be kept more honest than anyone else here. I seriously doubt anyone in Video would let him get away with anything.
His only option will be to post true information about NVIDIA. That's the only way he will ever reintegrate into the community. If he can't do it, members will call him out on it. If he consistently provides inaccurate information, the mods and I will assume it was on purpose based on his history and we will ban him once more.
those of you who want Rollo gone should hope he hasn't changed. if you are right he'll be out the door in an instant.
Originally posted by: Rollo
You should not trust anything you read on the forums, because people often have agendas, viral marketing included.
He's giving himself an escape clause! Later on down the road when he's been caught either stretching the truth or outright lying, he can refer back to this statement and say "Well, I DID warn you. You can't trust anybody!" Then he can skip off back to the Nvidia forums, laughing at having pulled the wool over AT's eyes yet once again.
it is good to stay skeptical. i wouldn't say don't trust anything -- some of it will be true. rather i would say that it is wise to verify things for yourself. if we do that with Rollo, he won't be able to pull any wool over anything.
There is no doubt now that Rollo is sponsored by Nvidia.
not to post here he's not ...
You yourself said Nvidia asked to have Rollo reinstated.
it's a subtle difference -- they didn't request it, they passed on the fact that he was interested in asking to return. they didn't wake up one day and decide it was time to try to get Rollo back on AT. Rollo mentioned he'd like to come back if he could. NVIDIA merely directed the request to the proper authority.
That tells me Nvidia wants him here to continue steering customers towards Nvidia and away from ATI. THAT was Rollo's main function before he was banned and THAT'S why they asked specifically for him to return.
they don't want him to do that -- it makes them look bad. if that's how Rollo functioned before it was through AEG and not NVIDIA. They did not as specifically for Rollo to return. Rollo asked specifically for himself to be able to return. As I said, they just passed along the note.
They could have chosen from any number of other people who didn't have such a checkered past. But they want their main salesboy back here, doing what he did for them in the past. If they'd truly wanted somebody here simply to represent Nvidia and to catalog user problems and disseminate information, they would have chosen somebody who would be better received.
they don't want someone here to sell anything, and Rollo would be the worst chioce for such a job anyway because of his past. actually, Rollo being here to catalog problems and disseminate information is the best possible role for him: there's no way members would let him get away with anything else.
I simply can't believe that you would allow these forums to be turned into an online manufacturer's market with their salespeople hawking their wares in every thread.
we would never allow this to happen. if we find anyone shilling they will be banned. if things hadn't changed with Rollo's situation we never would have given him the chance to come back. as I said, his current relationship with NVIDIA has nothing to do with pushing their products.
there will be viral marketers that get under the radar. it has happened and it will likely happen again, but we will keep our eyes out for it. certainly the last person that will ever be able to get away with it would be Rollo.
We don't NEED any sponsored representatives here.
and if I can help it there never will be any one who is paid just to come here and spin from any company. when i find them i will ban them.
It's already hard enough pulling facts from the fluff the manufacturers try to spoon feed us. But to have one in the forums, deliberately muddying up the facts in order to sell his sponsoring company's products? Come on!
this is not what he is here to do, this is not what NVIDIA wants him to do, and this is not what he will do or he'll find himself banned faster than he can blink.
I'm sorry Derek, but I can't take this. If you're going to invite somebody like him back after everything he's pulled, then I don't think I want to stick around here anymore. My standards of ethics are higher than that.
if i believed what you wrote, i would be disappointed too. the truth is, he won't stick around if he hasn't changed. he gets a second chance because other people got a second chance, and because he no longer is in a position where he is unwilling to disclose his relationships. he is no longer a viral marketer and his presence here is of no concern to NVIDIA other than that they passed along his request.
I appreciate second chances when I have them, and I'm glad to be able to offer them to others.
Apparently, the neutrality of the Anandtech forums isn't a priority anymore.
The neutrality of AnandTech is a top priority. Allowing Rollo to post has nothing to do with our neutrality. At all. In fact, it shows how unbiased we are in our policy of allowing long banned members to return -- even those who were banned for a really good reason.
Let me know if you decide that the members of the forum are more important than getting an "in" with a major corporation.
We don't need or want an "in" with anyone.
Otherwise, I think I'll stay in self-imposed exile. I doubt it will bother you much, but it will sadden me greatly to leave after having been here from the beginning. But if this is the direction you're taking Anandtech...
it will bother me greatly if you decide not to come back over so simple a matter as letting a banned member return, especially Rollo.
I hope I have adequately shown that there is no underhandedness going on here on our part. I hope I've made it plain that AnandTech has done nothing we wouldn't have done for any other banned member. I hope it's clear that we have not been pushed by NVIDIA to allow Rollo to return.
I also hope it is clear that Rollo's capacity has changed and that he is not a viral marketer. I hope you guys can see how damaging it would be to NVIDIA to promote such behavior and that their confirmation of the fact that Rollo's posts are his own and they don't care what he says goes to show that there is no inherent bias in his position.
That said, based on the past, it is certainly wise to expect that there was some reason for him to conceal his relationship with NVIDIA and that he does have some personal bias towards them. I hope the sig requirement and the name change to nRollo will help alleviate at least some of the problems members have with him.
I honestly think I have talked this subject to death ... I just really want all of you to understand that we have operated completely above board on this and that we expect Rollo to do so as well. if he does not, he is gone. as other's have said, i hope he can show that he's has the ability to remain a useful part of the community now that his relationship with NVIDIA is fully disclosed.
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