Why is Piracy the giant industry bogeyman?

[lifeobry]

That's actually wrong. Steam is system based DRM with online elements. It's actually one of the most overly aggressive forms of DRM IMO. All of your games are locked to your account. If your account is terminated for whatever reason you lose access to everything. Many games have their own DRM on top of steam DRM. Plus, you can never resell a game that uses steam DRM.

The solution is clear. Greater incentives to purchase games, not more roadblocks.

Steam doesn't mess with your computer like SecurROM and similar methods. That's what I was referring to.

As far as incentives go, what incentives can a dev create for a single player game with no online components? Like Oblivion or Dragon Age?

 

[Martimus]

Steam doesn't mess with your computer like SecurROM and similar methods. That's what I was referring to.

As far as incentives go, what incentives can a dev create for a single player game with no online components? Like Oblivion or Dragon Age?

Regular updates for the game for those that purchased the game and registered. That was what Stardock did for GC2, which had no MP support at all either. It had new updates with improved features and AI for years after release. (same with GC1 for that matter)

Of course, that is for a 4X game, where you play the game multiple times. For one where you are likely to only play it once, there really is no incentive when it comes to updates. You won't get much need for long term support for those type of games, as there isn't much you can do to make it fresh again, short of creating extra campaigns.

 

[mindcycle]

Steam doesn't mess with your computer like SecurROM and similar methods. That's what I was referring to.

Ok, thanks for making that clearer. That is true to some extent, but i'd argue that Steam does mess with your computer since you constantly have to have it running to load Steam games. That and there is no way to get rid of it without losing access to your purchased games. I'd actually prefer having SecuROM (cd only check) because at least I have the possibility of selling the game and I can install and play it on a laptop that doesn't have immediate internet access. But I do realize some people don't care about losing those abilities and prefer Steam. It's just not a very good choice for me and IMO adds restrictions to the platform that shouldn't exist.

As far as incentives go, what incentives can a dev create for a single player game with no online components? Like Oblivion or Dragon Age?

SP only games could have easy access extra content (DLC) with the serial number, patches, updates, a user community with message boards and areas to upload user mod's, maybe collector's edition content in the regular retail version, etc.. I'm sure there are a bunch of other incentives that publishers could come up with if they stopped investing time and money into worthless DRM.

Pirates will always find a way around anything, like pirating the DLC and patches, but publishers can make it infinitely easier for the paying customer to access the extra content. Thus, they increase the value of purchasing the game vs pirating it. So far it seems this has been an afterthought for most publishers. They would rather spend money on something that is guaranteed to fail instead.

 

[Zensal]

You can still pirate WoW. You just won't be able to play on the blizzard servers which is the huge advantage of paying for the real thing. I don't personally play the game but i've heard the pirate servers are dodgy at best.



That's actually wrong. Steam is system based DRM with online elements. It's actually one of the most overly aggressive forms of DRM IMO. All of your games are locked to your account. If your account is terminated for whatever reason you lose access to everything. Many games have their own DRM on top of steam DRM. Plus, you can never resell a game that uses steam DRM.

IMO, the solution to piracy is to offer greater incentives to purchase games. WoW offers dedicated servers and access to a large user community. That alone offers gamers a greater incentive to purchase the game. Games from Stardock are DRM free and sell very well given the extra incentives a purchase provides you (plus the fact you don't have to deal with DRM). Mainly access to dedicated servers, user support, quick access to updates, etc..

The solution is clear. Greater incentives to purchase games, not more roadblocks.

I do not think that this would work at all. Pirates couldn't care less about incentives, and I, a paying customer, don't either. I just want to play the core game and that's it.

The only reason places like GoG.com or Stardock work, like someone mentioned before, is because they are so small. The pirates don't get together and say "That game doesn't have DRM? I'm so gonna buy it." I'm sorry to all the Stardock fans out there, but pirates don't want to play GC or Sins. The want Dragon Age, or MW2.

I'm in favor of a single internet check for activation that is linked to an account, like Steam, for SP, and everytime for MP. It very effectively cuts down piracy with minimal influence to the consumer.

I will cede the points about resale. I personally don't resell games, but Steam probably should provide a method.

 

[Visaoni]

The only reason places like GoG.com or Stardock work, like someone mentioned before, is because they are so small. The pirates don't get together and say "That game doesn't have DRM? I'm so gonna buy it." I'm sorry to all the Stardock fans out there, but pirates don't want to play GC or Sins. The want Dragon Age, or MW2.

Eh, what? Pirates only play games like Dragon Age and MW2, but not GC or Sins? What sort of ridiculous assumptions lead you to that conclusion?

It does occasionally happen that a pirate buys a game simply because the company doesn't use DRM. I know several people who are examples. I won't call it the norm, but considering exactly how easy it is to pirate games these days, I can guarantee games like GC and Sins have sold more copies to people who are generally pirates than games from companies like EA have.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

I'd expect the relative sales of the titles alone would prove that point. It's not so much that pirates don't want Sins or GC as much as DA or MW2, but rather the reality that people in general want DA or MW2 considerably more then Sins or GC.

This is hardly a secret - Stardock targets a very limited market. They've always been upfront about that.

 

[mindcycle]

I do not think that this would work at all. Pirates couldn't care less about incentives, and I, a paying customer, don't either. I just want to play the core game and that's it.

That's fine and I respect your opinion. However, would you then suggest adding more roadblocks to address the issue? It's been proven that DRM just simply doesn't work, so i'd have to say that greater incentives is about the only smart thing to do at this point.

Appealing to your customers, the people actually considering buying your games, just makes sense IMO. I'm actually like you and don't usually need more incentive to purchase a game I want. However, if companies want to increase sales it just seems to make sense that more roadblocks, such as more DRM, is not the answer. So if you can offer another alternative then i'd be interested in hearing it.

The pirates don't get together and say "That game doesn't have DRM? I'm so gonna buy it."

Sorry to say, but Sins containing no DRM is exactly the reason I bought the game. RTS isn't my favorite genre by any means, but I did purchase the game mainly because I wanted to support StarDock.

The only reason places like GoG.com or Stardock work, like someone mentioned before, is because they are so small. I'm sorry to all the Stardock fans out there, but pirates don't want to play GC or Sins. The want Dragon Age, or MW2.

To say they aren't comparable isn't accurate because you are strictly looking at numbers and not percentages. Most games are pirated in similar percentages when you look at sales vs pirated copies. Obvious Sins isn't going to attract the same amount of attention because the marketing for that title is much smaller than big budget titles, so in pure numbers it is pirated less. However, if you look at the percentage of copies pirated vs sold, it's probably very similar to MW2 or Dragon Age.

I'm in favor of a single internet check for activation that is linked to an account, like Steam, for SP, and everytime for MP. It very effectively cuts down piracy with minimal influence to the consumer.

So would a CD check. Casual pirating isn't the real concern though. Publishers see these torrent numbers and then want a scapegoat they can blame for low sales when in reality it's probably due to other factors. Such as buggy unoptimized console ports, leaving out features, no marketing, etc..

 

[nitromullet]

Eh, what? Pirates only play games like Dragon Age and MW2, but not GC or Sins? What sort of ridiculous assumptions lead you to that conclusion?

Actually, this is pretty much what Stardock themselves said.

http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/post.aspx?postid=303512

When you make a game for a target market, you have to look at how many people will actually buy your game combined with how much it will cost to make a game for that target market. What good is a large number of users if they're not going to buy your game? And what good is a market where the minimal commitment to make a game for it is $10 million if the target audience isn't likely to pay for the game?

If the target demographic for your game is full of pirates who won't buy your game, then why support them? That's one of the things I have a hard time understanding. It's irrelevant how many people will play your game (if you're in the business of selling games that is). It's only relevant how many people are likely to buy your game.

Stardock doesn't make games targeting the Chinese market. If we spent $10 million on a PC game explicitly for the Chinese market and we lost our shirts, would you really feel that much sympathy for us? Or would you think "Duh."

 

[Zensal]

That's fine and I respect your opinion. However, would you then suggest adding more roadblocks to address the issue? It's been proven that DRM just simply doesn't work, so i'd have to say that greater incentives is about the only smart thing to do at this point.

Appealing to your customers, the people actually considering buying your games, just makes sense IMO. I'm actually like you and don't usually need more incentive to purchase a game I want. However, if companies want to increase sales it just seems to make sense that more roadblocks, such as more DRM, is not the answer. So if you can offer another alternative then i'd be interested in hearing it.

I suggest removing all the stupid roadblocks that do not work, and just using the one that does. Steam's DRM does and severely limits piracy on Steam-only games. That is a fair trade off for me.

Sorry to say, but Sins containing no DRM is exactly the reason I bought the game. RTS isn't my favorite genre by any means, but I did purchase the game mainly because I wanted to support StarDock.

I also bought Galactic Civilizations II because it didn't have DRM. I'm not arguing that people like you and me support developers, but I'm not a pirate, and I assume that you are not also. A large majority of them do not care. They just want free things.

To say they aren't comparable isn't accurate because you are strictly looking at numbers and not percentages. Most games are pirated in similar percentages when you look at sales vs pirated copies. Obvious Sins isn't going to attract the same amount of attention because the marketing for that title is much smaller than big budget titles, so in pure numbers it is pirated less. However, if you look at the percentage of copies pirated vs sold, it's probably very similar to MW2 or Dragon Age.

Only so many people will support that model, and the numbers seem to be diminishing. Places like Stardock are successful because of the passionate following that they have. The people who play Sins and GC2 are happy because of the lack of DRM, but they lack the numbers to argue the point with the industry giants.

With the anonymity that the internet has brought, paying for IP has become a bit like placing your software out on the sidewalk and shaking a tin cup. Payment for many, many people has become an optional thing. I'm not happy that games seem to be selling for $60 now, but video games are entertainment and they can sell them for whatever cost they want. The could sell them for $200 and that is their choice.

So would a CD check. Casual pirating isn't the real concern though. Publishers see these torrent numbers and then want a scapegoat they can blame for low sales when in reality it's probably due to other factors. Such as buggy unoptimized console ports, leaving out features, no marketing, etc..

CD checks don't work because it is to easy to make a copy of the CD. Low sales might well be due to all of those things, but it does not give people the right to play it. And if the games are so buggy and lacking features, why do people pirate so many copies?

I know that both of us are on the same side here. We just want to keep PC gaming alive.

 

[lifeobry]

A large majority of them do not care. They just want free things.

Exactly. People don't care that devs have added incentives or crafted a fine game. They are excited to play it; they just will download it for free instead of buying it.

Why? Because the option is there. Even fully grown adults that can afford them pirate games. Not to mention the horde of pimply youths that can barely operate torrents and believe all media is free.

I think the industry needs to take draconian measures to stop piracy. It's been around since forever and it has hurt the legitimacy of the PC market.

 

[Zensal]

Exactly. People don't care that devs have added incentives or crafted a fine game. They are excited to play it; they just will download it for free instead of buying it.

Why? Because the option is there. Even fully grown adults that can afford them pirate games. Not to mention the horde of pimply youths that can barely operate torrents and believe all media is free.

Yes.

I think the industry needs to take draconian measures to stop piracy. It's been around since forever and it has hurt the legitimacy of the PC market.

Uhh...no. They need less draconian measures and more effective measures. If something doesn't work, or breaks a paying customer's computer, then it is stupid and wrong.

Something like Steam is more effective and it's value added. No CD checks, unlimited downloads, and you can use it on any computer. And on top of all that, because of the lack of physical media, they can have excellent sales.

 

[BladeVenom]

Draconian measures have never made anything more popular.

When it comes to music, people who pirate the most, also buy the most. http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/apr/21/study-finds-pirates-buy-more-music

 

[lifeobry]

Uhh...no. They need less draconian measures and more effective measures. If something doesn't work, or breaks a paying customer's computer, then it is stupid and wrong.

Something like Steam is more effective and it's value added. No CD checks, unlimited downloads, and you can use it on any computer. And on top of all that, because of the lack of physical media, they can have excellent sales.

Where did I imply it would not work or break a computer?

One idea I find draconian (but would be effective) is where you would have an account and have to be logged in to play -- even for a single player game -- much like an MMO.

There just needs to be a system that can't be easily bypassed. Pirates will pirate regardless, but if you make it hard enough, many will be deterred.

 

[Zensal]

Where did I imply it would not work or break a computer?

One idea I find draconian (but would be effective) is where you would have an account and have to be logged in to play -- even for a single player game -- much like an MMO.

There just needs to be a system that can't be easily bypassed. Pirates will pirate regardless, but if you make it hard enough, many will be deterred.

That won't work. Not everyone is always connected to the internet. Therefore, that form of DRM will break the game.

 

[Visaoni]

Actually, this is pretty much what Stardock themselves said.

http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/post.aspx?postid=303512

I doubt Sins has seen a lower percentage of pirating than any other game out there. All they are really doing is saying that they assume (rightly or wrongly) that certain demographics are more likely to pirate than others. And because of that they will only target the ones that they think pirate less. They didn't come out and say "all pirates are addicted to instant gratification and therefor will only play big name games with lots of pretty graphics and instant rewards" because that is just silly.

Where did I imply it would not work or break a computer?

One idea I find draconian (but would be effective) is where you would have an account and have to be logged in to play -- even for a single player game -- much like an MMO.

There just needs to be a system that can't be easily bypassed. Pirates will pirate regardless, but if you make it hard enough, many will be deterred.

That would be horrible. I will never buy a game that requires me to have an active internet connection to play single player. What if my internet connection goes out, or for some other reason I can't log on? What if I don't want my playing habits tracked by the company? The only way to fix the initial problem (no internet connection) is to allow the game to be played when it cannot even connect to the internet. But it isn't terribly difficult for a pirate to block the game from having access to the internet.

Also, not so much like an MMO. An MMO is, well, not single player by definition.

 

[mindcycle]

I suggest removing all the stupid roadblocks that do not work, and just using the one that does. Steam's DRM does and severely limits piracy on Steam-only games. That is a fair trade off for me.

Lots of people would side with your opinion, and I do think Steam is better than some forms of DRM for sure. But for me it's not worth Valve essentially having total control over access to all of my legally purchased games. That on top of the inability to resell my games makes me avoid it for now until those restrictions are lifted.

A large majority of them do not care. They just want free things.

That's absolutely true. That's why companies like stardock are so smart. They create games for their customers and their customers alone. They don't consider pirates customers, therefore they don't put them into the equation. The extra money they save not fighting pirates can then be spent developing new games, providing game updates, addons, ect.. that are specifically for their user base of loyal customers, and not toward fighting a war they can't win.

Only so many people will support that model, and the numbers seem to be diminishing. Places like Stardock are successful because of the passionate following that they have. The people who play Sins and GC2 are happy because of the lack of DRM, but they lack the numbers to argue the point with the industry giants.

The music industry did the same thing. Ignored the way things were and instead sued their customers. Just now are they beginning to realize they should have jumped on newer business models a long time ago. They're pretty late in the game at this point and trying to catch up. The same thing will happen to the big game publishers. That or they will stop publishing for the PC altogether, which has already happened in a few cases.

CD checks don't work because it is to easy to make a copy of the CD.

It's actually not. Modern cd check DRM cannot be copied in any conventional method. You have to jump through hoops to get it to work and most people wouldn't have the technical knowledge to do it. That's why torrents are so popular now.

I know that both of us are on the same side here. We just want to keep PC gaming alive.

Yes, very true. I grew up with PC gaming. While I have both a PS3 and 360, I still prefer the depth and customization that many of the quality PC games provide. Consoles can never provide us with a dedicated modding community for our favorite game, or touch the ability to fully customize controls and graphics like we can on a PC.

 

[mindcycle]

I think the industry needs to take draconian measures to stop piracy. It's been around since forever and it has hurt the legitimacy of the PC market.

The most draconian measures that have ever graced PC gaming have already been attempted. Online authentication, install limits, root kit cd check DRM, etc.. None of which has stopped piracy and has only served to hurt the perception of the PC games industry.

EA decided to drop online auth/install limit based SecuROM from their recent games and I can't think of a better indication of the fact that draconian DRM clearly doesn't work.

 

[Zebo]

Publishers are not going to give up on DRM just because it has failed in the past. It isn't a set in stone object, it is continually being refined, and if you think it is going anywhere then you are mistaken.

Sites like GOG and Impulse, while often praised only exist because they are the minority. If games without DRM became the status quo, the guilt behind warezing them would soon vanish and we would be back to the early 90s. It is just like musicians who release their music on the web for free or on a donation base. It's an awesome social experiment, but if everyone were to do it, the donations would quickly dry up.

Also, DRM does not fail simply because the game can still be warezed. If it makes it difficult to pirate on a CD, or difficult to get 0day, or hard to patch, all of these things are small successes in the grand scheme.

The reality is that we all have BT trackers to thank for the current blame game. I'm sure developers and publishers alike have known about piracy just as long as you or I, however having a site that logs statistics on just how large this # is, allowing them to compare these #s to their own sale #s, is what caused a lot of alarm. When piracy # is a multiple of the sales #, it becomes a cause for concern.

God damn skace you're smart I agree 100%

 

[nitromullet]

I doubt Sins has seen a lower percentage of pirating than any other game out there. All they are really doing is saying that they assume (rightly or wrongly) that certain demographics are more likely to pirate than others. And because of that they will only target the ones that they think pirate less. They didn't come out and say "all pirates are addicted to instant gratification and therefor will only play big name games with lots of pretty graphics and instant rewards" because that is just silly.

The point was you asked how someone could get the notion that pirates weren't really going after Stardock games as much as the AAA titles... I answered your question.