Why is immigration even an issue?

[realibrad]

Oh TH.

Not all crime is equal. Why are those on the Right not calling for executive action to stop speeders on the highway? Why is the Right not demanding that we investigate child sexual assault in the Catholic Church?

The biggest reason we treat immigration differently because it is different from other legal infractions. The economic benefit to this country is huge. The cost of enforcing what you want would cost massive amounts of money. Even if you ignore the shit-hole that many people left to get here, those two things should be enough.

 

[flexy]

There may be an economic benefit.
There is an uncertain cost & effort <-> benefit ratio of "rounding up all illegals and deport them", despite the total idiocy of it because it's virtually not possible.
Apprehending illegals COSTS MONEY. They are put in detention centers, they have rights to get lawyers etc. There is a huge logistic and legal apparatus at work that, again, COSTS A LOT OF MONEY.
And most importantly, the entire focus of you people on illegals is absolutely stupid since it's not illegals PER SE "stealing our jobs", they are "merely" making a situation worse which is brought on NOT BY IMMIGRATION, but by offshoring/outsourcing of jobs. (In simple words: Jose didn't move XYZ company's jobs to China)
Without addressing this (and this means: REGULATIONS) it is idiotic kindergarten thinking and basically merely a lie/distraction to claim that illegals are the main, primary reasons for scarce jobs.
"Liberals" know this. You obviously don't. You think your orange monkey and your stupid wall will "bring back jobs".

 

[Texashiker]

Because we, all of us can't come up with a compromise.
We need some immigration as Linsey Graham pointed out.

We have immigration, legal immigration. We have had immigration since the nation was founded.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

We have immigration, legal immigration. We have had immigration since the nation was founded.

Problem is its not working, we turn away the wrong people who enter legally and we still don't admit enough to support growth. Refer to Lindsey Grahams point during the primary debates.
We need to work out some kind of rational policy regarding people who are here illegally, maybe a Reagan like amnesty program and figure out a rational way to secure the boarder and penalize businesses who violate the law (which are mostly small businesses that is why its poisonous for Politicians to talk about)

 

[glenn1]

Oh, I actually have a question for TH now, after giving his post a re-read.

If an illegal has a child in America, do you think either of them should be deported?

Yes of course the parent should be deported, how is that even a question other than rhetorical? You don't get a pass from murdering someone because you have a child in this country. Or rape. Or anything other than break immigration laws.

 

[realibrad]

Problem is its not working, we turn away the wrong people who enter legally and we still don't admit enough to support growth. Refer to Lindsey Grahams point during the primary debates.
We need to work out some kind of rational policy regarding people who are here illegally, maybe a Reagan like amnesty program and figure out a rational way to secure the boarder and penalize businesses who violate the law (which are mostly small businesses that is why its poisonous for Politicians to talk about)

Difference of perspective. The reason we don't have movement is because the pressure is to keep people out. Both Left and Right have people that will be upset if competition is increased for middle and upper jobs. Both sides right now do not like the immigration for tech positions. Neither party has a real reason to increase the number. Its not that the system is broken, is that its working as intended.

Right now low income earners are able to find positions pretty easy. Its only in higher paying jobs that an illegal status would be a problem. This allows for people to come in who dont really take "good" middle class jobs. We cant have open borders because the expense on our programs would be too large, kids being the most expensive. We cant let in adults because they put pressure on labor.

Its a lose lose politically.

 

[Jhhnn]

The only reason that immigration is an issue is because Repubs want to keep it that way. We'd already have better border security had Repubs not killed the most recent immigration bill. Dems want better border security like everybody else. We just see Trump's wall as a ridiculous waste of resources, like bunkers in Albania.

The real issue is how to deal with 10M or so undocumented immigrants & their citizen children. I think it's obvious that the status quo isn't acceptable. It's Catch22 all the way around. I also think conservatives look at it all wrong because they really don't know who they're talking about, who undocumented immigrants really are.

Many have been here for years being productive members of society & they've done it by choice rather than chance like the rest of us. They want to be part of what we call America. That's got to be worth something. They pay some pretty heavy dues to have it that way, make do with the work they can get, keep their noses clean & fly under the radar. They're heavily exploited. Other than the paperwork, they're usually good citizens. They avoid trouble.

Their children are often US citizens owed the same considerations as all other US citizen children. Their parentage is immaterial simply because they are citizens as defined in the Constitution. That's just the way it is, like it or not. Going on about how it should be different is just bullshit.

Dems contend that it's wrong to deport their parents & the children citizens along with them. Parents won't leave their children behind as wards of the State. We all know this. We all know it's wrong to deport our own citizen children. It just is. That needs to be our primary consideration going forward.

 

[realibrad]

The only reason that immigration is an issue is because Repubs want to keep it that way. We'd already have better border security had Repubs not killed the most recent immigration bill. Dems want better border security like everybody else. We just see Trump's wall as a ridiculous waste of resources, like bunkers in Albania.

What issue are you talking about. Dems do not want immigration of people either. Republicans are worried about poor immigration, Dems are worried about middle and upper income immigration. Its also known that many states could not afford to pay for immigrants with their current budgets.

The real issue is how to deal with 10M or so undocumented immigrants & their citizen children. I think it's obvious that the status quo isn't acceptable. It's Catch22 all the way around. I also think conservatives look at it all wrong because they really don't know who they're talking about, who undocumented immigrants really are.

Those children are the most expensive type of immigrants. Adults can work, children cannot. That means you have to put them in school which is a huge cost. Dems know this too.

Many have been here for years being productive members of society & they've done it by choice rather than chance like the rest of us. They want to be part of what we call America. That's got to be worth something. They pay some pretty heavy dues to have it that way, make do with the work they can get, keep their noses clean & fly under the radar. They're heavily exploited. Other than the paperwork, they're usually good citizens. They avoid trouble.

And here is where the Left comes out ahead. They at least admit that immigrants are not shitbags.

Their children are often US citizens owed the same considerations as all other US citizen children. Their parentage is immaterial simply because they are citizens as defined in the Constitution. That's just the way it is, like it or not. Going on about how it should be different is just bullshit.

Except that children are more expensive as explained above. The argument could be that those kids raised in our society will likely bring far more future earnings, but the initial investment would be very large if you open up more immigration. If you dont, then you have simply give a lotto to those who come over. The incentive is no different except you are making it more deadly for those trying to come over.

Dems contend that it's wrong to deport their parents & the children citizens along with them. Parents won't leave their children behind as wards of the State. We all know this. We all know it's wrong to deport our own citizen children. It just is. That needs to be our primary consideration going forward.

But economically it cant be. Until both sides agree on what to do, we will not move forward. Its not just the Right with their heads up their ass. The Left knows that its difficult and would rather focus on other issues. The only thing the Left is for right now is amnesty, but amnesty does not fix the future problem. So they might be better, but still not fixing the problem.

 

[Texashiker]

Oh TH.
he economic benefit to this country is huge. The cost of enforcing what you want would cost massive amounts of money.

Economic benefit - as in exploiting people willing to work for dirt cheap? Have you read how farm workers are treated?

Cost - good, hire more more ICE employees and deporting millions would be a boom to the economy. If the federal reserve can print billions to bail out the banks, print billions to create more jobs.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Yes of course the parent should be deported, how is that even a question other than rhetorical? You don't get a pass from murdering someone because you have a child in this country. Or rape. Or anything other than break immigration laws.

Just a random question. Kids are Citizens and Parents are not, who takes care of the kids if the Parents are deported, who pays to send the kids to live with their Parents in a Foreign Country if we deport the Parents?

 

[realibrad]

Economic benefit - as in exploiting people willing to work for dirt cheap? Have you read how farm workers are treated?

Cost - good, hire more more ICE employees and deporting millions would be a boom to the economy. If the federal reserve can print billions to bail out the banks, print billions to create more jobs.

Just so we are clear, you are for expanding the government.

As for exploiting people, wrong again. If the people who came here had it better off where they came from, they would not have come here. Its not exploitation, its an economic reality. The only reason we pay those workers is because they are cheaper than machines. Those workers are not taking away jobs, and their low wages are not exploitation. Those low wages are what create the jobs for people, instead of machines.

The sad reality is that those working conditions are still better than what they left. The reason those conditions are so bad, is because the people are afraid to come forward out of fear of being deported. That situation is caused by your anti-immigration stance.

So, bad position on both fronts.

 

[realibrad]

Just a random question. Kids are Citizens and Parents are not, who takes care of the kids if the Parents are deported, who pays to send the kids to live with their Parents in a Foreign Country if we deport the Parents?

My guess is that he understands the economic cost, but does not want to cause an incentive where people are willing to come here knowing that if they have kids they get to stay. So, either you deport kids and family, or deport family. If the kids were born here, the kids can stay but be in the system.

 

[Svnla]

Why even bother to have immigration laws if we (US) do not enforce them equally to everyone? Why people in Africa, Asia, Europe and other places have to wait for years and years to do it the LEGAL way while ILLEGALS don't have to?

Why even bother to pretend to have a border if we let hordes and hordes of ILLEGALS to sneak in and stay and then they have the nerve to demand to stay here?

Why let the smart ones leave because their visas/paper works are expiring while ignore the MILLION and MILLION of ILLEGALS that have no skill for the 21st century economy? Do we need more high skill people such as Elon Musk (a LEGAL immigrant) or more dish washers/lawn mowers/gardeners?

 

[Zaap]

Yes of course the parent should be deported, how is that even a question other than rhetorical? You don't get a pass from murdering someone because you have a child in this country. Or rape. Or anything other than break immigration laws.

This is an interesting point to me, because the term 'anchor baby' has really expanded more from just anchoring the parents to the country- but also as a buoy-baby, keeping illegal parents afloat from just about anything.

Why would it be logical that I could sneak into say, Germany- have a kid, and then expect that kid to be my golden ticket out of any responsibility to German immigration laws? Why would that even be logical? Since children belong with their parents- LEAVE the country you have no business living in (that's pretty much EVERY country in the world, except for some stupid reason the US) and take your child WITH YOU.

The only people separating anyone from their children, are anyone who'd be callous enough to be kicked out of a country and not take their children with them.

Anyway, I don't even subscribe to the 'just deport them all' nonsense, since that's never going to happen and would be FUGLY in any way to try and implement. Simply enforce the laws so jobs are done only by legal residents- with stiff fines, penalties, jail terms for anyone caught doing otherwise. Problem SOLVED. Yes, you'd still have illegals, but NO you wouldn't have a huge problem with millions streaming in taking on jobs they shouldn't have, and gutting the wages of entire industries.

 

[realibrad]

Why even bother to have immigration laws if we (US) do not enforce them equally to everyone? Why people in Africa, Asia, Europe and other places have to wait for years and years to do it the LEGAL way while ILLEGALS don't have to?

Multiple reasons. Many of those places have cultural norms that make assimilation more difficult. Further many of those countries do not have the same type of immigration issues that southern countries have.

Very few from Asia are going to try to immigrate illegally other than visa issues. So its easier to enforce. As explained already, making immigration in terms of the Mexican border makes immigration more dangerous and will lead to more deaths. Many do not like that.

Why even bother to pretend to have a border if we let hordes and hordes of ILLEGALS to sneak in and stay and then they have the nerve to demand to stay here?

We dont let them, but the cost of trying to stop more is very very high. The cost of our current system is much lower relative to what some want.

Why let the smart ones leave because their visas/paper works are expiring while ignore the MILLION and MILLION of ILLEGALS that have no skill for the 21st century economy? Do we need more high skill people such as Elon Musk (a LEGAL immigrant) or more dish washers/lawn mowers/gardeners?

As explained before. The low wage workers are not really putting pressure on important jobs. Our social safety net will catch most if not all of the workers that would be displaced by illegal immigration. Legal immigration is also limited, as you already explained in the first part. The reason we dont let in more mid to high value immigrants again is due to labor value pressures.

 

[umbrella39]

Posting in yet another Riprorin doesn't understand how shit works thread...

 

[Zaap]

Do we need more high skill people such as Elon Musk (a LEGAL immigrant) or more dish washers/lawn mowers/gardeners?

The problem is, this is a stereotype which isn't entirely true. Illegal/undocumented whatever doesn't automagically mean unskilled, stupid, only able to do shit jobs.

http://fusion.net/story/110023/one-in-eight-undocumented-immigrants-now-has-a-white-collar-gig/

It should be an eye-opener for many that illegal workers do more jobs in professional gigs than manufacturing. It's sad Americans would accept these percentages in ANY occupations- they should all be extremely low 2 and 3% figures- yes, even agriculture which should and can be handled with legal DOCUMENTED workers, regardless of where they are from.

But, we're a nation of easily cowed-simpletons and US businesses are taking advantage of it, and will continue to more and more. The same people crowing on about "where did all the high paying jobs go?" actually hold the door for greedy assholes hiring undocumented labor to do jobs for peanuts, and thing nothing of it.

 

[MajinCry]

Yes of course the parent should be deported, how is that even a question other than rhetorical? You don't get a pass from murdering someone because you have a child in this country. Or rape. Or anything other than break immigration laws.

Should the child be deported with the parent?

 

[Jhhnn]

What issue are you talking about. Dems do not want immigration of people either. Republicans are worried about poor immigration, Dems are worried about middle and upper income immigration. Its also known that many states could not afford to pay for immigrants with their current budgets.



Those children are the most expensive type of immigrants. Adults can work, children cannot. That means you have to put them in school which is a huge cost. Dems know this too.



And here is where the Left comes out ahead. They at least admit that immigrants are not shitbags.



Except that children are more expensive as explained above. The argument could be that those kids raised in our society will likely bring far more future earnings, but the initial investment would be very large if you open up more immigration. If you dont, then you have simply give a lotto to those who come over. The incentive is no different except you are making it more deadly for those trying to come over.



But economically it cant be. Until both sides agree on what to do, we will not move forward. Its not just the Right with their heads up their ass. The Left knows that its difficult and would rather focus on other issues. The only thing the Left is for right now is amnesty, but amnesty does not fix the future problem. So they might be better, but still not fixing the problem.

You're dodging & obfuscating all over the map. We have ~10M undocumented immigrants in this country & their American citizen children as well. Do we honor our obligations to our own citizen children, or not? It's just that simple.

The rest of it falls into place when you quit dancing around the right of American citizens to grow up in their own county.

 

[Jhhnn]

Should the child be deported with the parent?

Don't expect an honest answer.

 

[OutHouse]

Add some what, unbridled stupidity on your part?
...

Fuck off asshole. I linked a news story about illegals getting obama care in a TH thread bitching about immigration on top of his past post about not being able to afford obama care.... so im not exactly sure why you are raging on me and calling me stupid.

.

 

[MajinCry]

Don't expect an honest answer.

Yah, I just want to see how far this *achem* logic runs. Because if the illegal parents should be deported, and the descendants of the parents should also be deported, then all non-Mexican and non-Native Americans should be deported from the USA.

But that would be applying their principles unto themselves, which is uncomfortable for them.

 

[OutHouse]

Just a random question. Kids are Citizens and Parents are not, who takes care of the kids if the Parents are deported, who pays to send the kids to live with their Parents in a Foreign Country if we deport the Parents?

the constitution should be changed so you apply to be a citizen at 18.

 

[glenn1]

Should the child be deported with the parent?

"Should" is a different standard than "legally able to." If they're born here then we can't legally force their deportation but that isn't a reason not to enforce the laws against their parents. If that means that you get geographically separated from your children because you chose to break the law and then chose not to take them with you, then you and the child live with those decisions.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

the constitution should be changed so you apply to be a citizen at 18.

What does that solve? Does everyone get approved? Who gets turned away and why?

I'm all for looking at birthright citizenship, we're the only Country in the World that does it. Kind of like healthcare we're the only Country with our shitty set up.
I will say maybe birthright Citizenship is why we are the best in the world at assimilating people but maybe I'm wrong its a good discussion to have.