Why is healthcare a "right" now?

[JockoJohnson]

Isn't it amazing how after Bush, very few people claim to be Republican?

Maybe because Republican is not the same as it was back before Bush. The neo-cons or whatever they want to be labeled seem to have taken over the party. I am for less gov't where we can afford to have less gov't. However, I support gay marriage, abortion and other social issues that Republicans tend to have an issue with. I know I am not alone in this thinking. I always thought of myself as a Republican but not now. The party has gone to shit...just like the Democrats. I am tired of the lesser of two evils but what can be done.

 

[wuliheron]

Isn't it amazing how after Bush, very few people claim to be Republican?

If only changing what they call themselves would also change the way they vote. I'm not part of a lynch mob! I'm an independent/tea partier/libertarian. Yeah, right.

 

[blackangst1]

Hey, you're the one who supports lots of government power, thats what happens. (and btw, the top 1% pay about 1/3 of the federal income tax)

Oh and lol at the "costs to society". Yes, people like Bill Gates give us companies that produce software that benefits millions of people around the world, employs thousands. Indirectly increasing our economic prosperity because of all the increases in productivity provides. And you want to talk about "costs to society". God you are an idiot, but a predictable one none the less.

And there are thousands of people just like Gates who have done the same thing on a smaller scale with their ventures.

And you bitch about the "costs to society"? Please.

You worship government? That explains everything really.

I think I finally understand the mind of a progressive.
It all makes sense now. Wow, you people are seriously fucked in the head.

I'm not really sure you're capable of understanding my point. Capitalism made this country the most prosperous on earth, yet you insist that capitalism is the root of all evil. There's some sort of illogical mental wall you're maintaining between these two facts that prevents you from believing anything contrary to your pro-government mantra.

Pretty much 🙂

 

[Muse]

The US alone has billions of these plastic bottles a year discarded, causing big environmental problems.

I find it hard to fathom that people don't realize how anti-ecological it is to buy water in plastic bottles. I see them on the streets, in stores, etc. with them. I have bought a few gallon jugs of water as a precaution for the big earthquake that's supposed to hit here soon, but other than that I rely on tap water. Fortunately, it tastes very good around here and is evidently wholesome thanks to EBMUD treatment.

 

[alkemyst]

I find it hard to fathom that people don't realize how anti-ecological it is to buy water in plastic bottles. I see them on the streets, in stores, etc. with them. I have bought a few gallon jugs of water as a precaution for the big earthquake that's supposed to hit here soon, but other than that I rely on tap water. Fortunately, it tastes very good around here and is evidently wholesome thanks to EBMUD treatment.

It's because it's too cheap and the masses are too uneducated so they believe bottled water > tap.

I have a purification system in-house, so YMMV but I like my tap water better than the bottles I do buy when I have to have something I can throw away.

The bottled water industry created A HUGE landfill issue plus pollution. On my commute I usually see 1-2 people throwing an empty water bottle out their window. I never see cans or cups oddly. In my logic this is because those that can afford better things wouldn't do this and those just scraping by don't want their car littered so they litter outside it.

It's sad.

 

[Ape]

I find it hard to fathom that people don't realize how anti-ecological it is to buy water in plastic bottles. I see them on the streets, in stores, etc. with them. I have bought a few gallon jugs of water as a precaution for the big earthquake that's supposed to hit here soon, but other than that I rely on tap water. Fortunately, it tastes very good around here and is evidently wholesome thanks to EBMUD treatment.

They are supposed to be biodegradable but the problem with them is that they release the greenhouse grass known as methane. I wish we would go back to glass myself.

 

[xj0hnx]

I find it hard to fathom that people don't realize how anti-ecological it is to buy water in plastic bottles. I see them on the streets, in stores, etc. with them. I have bought a few gallon jugs of water as a precaution for the big earthquake that's supposed to hit here soon, but other than that I rely on tap water. Fortunately, it tastes very good around here and is evidently wholesome thanks to EBMUD treatment.

I wish our tap water didn't taste like a step shy of the sewer, unfortunately here the tap water is fucking horrible.

 

[Nebor]

It's because it's too cheap and the masses are too uneducated so they believe bottled water > tap.

I have a purification system in-house, so YMMV but I like my tap water better than the bottles I do buy when I have to have something I can throw away.

The bottled water industry created A HUGE landfill issue plus pollution. On my commute I usually see 1-2 people throwing an empty water bottle out their window. I never see cans or cups oddly. In my logic this is because those that can afford better things wouldn't do this and those just scraping by don't want their car littered so they litter outside it.

It's sad.

There is no huge landfill issue. You could fit the next 100 years of US trash inside a 20x20 square mile area. There's no trash crisis. Besides, aren't water bottles recyclable?

 

[alkemyst]

I wish our tap water didn't taste like a step shy of the sewer, unfortunately here the tap water is fucking horrible.

you can treat your own water. More work and cheaper.

I can afford not to worry about filters and refilling bottles/decanters. I still do because I can't deal with the waste of throwing away a container each time I drink water.

I went with Aquasana. They were having a nice sale at the time. I like it and people that want water here like it. For impromptu company I hand out a water bottle...for the 'locals' they know there is a nice dispenser in the fridge.

I think it costs me like $6-8 a month and they send new filters every 6 months. We go through a lot of filtered water here. Our pets, cleaning food, us, company...etc.

I have had bottled water in people's homes and I don't know how they can drink it.

 

[alkemyst]

There is no huge landfill issue. You could fit the next 100 years of US trash inside a 20x20 square mile area. There's no trash crisis. Besides, aren't water bottles recyclable?

not sure if serious.

 

[Nebor]

not sure if serious.

The article cites a study in which A. Clark Wiseman, an economist at Resources for the Future, a Washington-based think tank, "calculated that at the current rate of waste generation, all of America's garbage for the next 1,000 years would fit into a single landfill space only 120 feet deep and 44 miles square" (three times the size of Oklahoma City). Citing additional studies, the authors observe, "Few nations are as substantially endowed with uncongested territory as ours is, and there is appropriate land available even in some relatively populous areas."

http://www.plasticsindustry.org/AboutPlastics/content.cfm?ItemNumber=790&navItemNumber=1124


This has been well known for about 15 years. The whole crying indian, running out of landfill space thing was just an environmentalist scare tactic.

EDIT: And before the NIMBY argument, I'm a member of a shooting range in Dallas that backs right up to a landfill. It makes a great backstop.

 

[Zorkorist]

Anyone who has flied a plane across America knows we are not going to run out of landfill space 🙂

That's a very good post(s), Nebor.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Health care is not a right, but it's something that has objective value to people and something that, as a civilized society we'd like to be able to provide for everyone.

If we took individual rights to extremes as you suggest, which means real laissez-faire capitalism, the end result would be that a small percentage of the populace would be wealthy while the majority would be poor. People might still have de jure (under law) freedom and de jure rights but they wouldn't have de facto (actual, in reality) freedom and rights--just lip service about it.

And that's the problem with taking individual rights to the extreme--rational men have legitimate conflicts of interest with one another and the amount of resources on the planet (arable land, fresh water, etc.) is finite and limited. So, ironically, in the quest to protect individual rights and to forbid the initiation of physical force, the end result could be an actual reduction in freedom.

Funny thing about health care is that real socialized medicine as it is practiced in the evil excrement-grubbing socialist people's states of Western Europe has proven to be far, far superior to what we have in the U.S. and much less expensive. For a much smaller percentage of their nations' GDP (and in absolute dollars) those evil people's states have 100% coverage, zero medical bankruptcies, a much more content populace, and their businesses and economy are not burdened by health care concerns.

I hope that you will question what may be your belief that individual rights are absolutes and that real laissez-faire capitalism is the ideal. Question the dogma that (Ayn Rand perhaps?) taught you.



Basically, people don't want to watch other people die in the streets. More intellectual people might realize that we can maximize freedom and well-being with a little bit of socialism and that reality and the fact that resources only exist in finite quantities place constraints on people and society.

In other words, advocating individual rights sounds good and right in theory. However, in actuality, in the real world, it just doesn't work that well, at least not if your goal is to have widespread economic prosperity and de facto freedom. In other words, if you are homeless, starving, and sick, what good are your individual rights doing for you? If 95% of the populace were impoverished and lacked freedom of movement (since all roads would be for-profit and privatized), what good would their individual rights be doing for them?

Check your premises and question the free market dogma. Just because one might claim that his beliefs are objective and based on reason does not necessarily make it so.

That individuals don't like people dying in the street, is obviously a "part" of their happiness calculation.

You are forgetting, as so many people do, that people are born good, and in general, they are happy when other people are happy too.

Now, here comes Government, and all they care about is minimizing distress.

Do you see the diference?

One, is all for strenthening society, maximizing hapiness, and maximizing freedom.

The other is for equalizing, regulating, confiscating, happiness.

-John

 

[Craig234]

...

Obnoxious idiocy precludes a specific response.

 

[Zorkorist]

It's like Russian Communism, Marxism...

"From those that can, to those that need."

This is not what America belives, obviously.

We believe in indivdual success. We understand that the individual, and his success is paramount to our healthy country, and the world.

-John

 

[Craig234]

...

Too much obnoxious idiocy to respond.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Hey, you're the one who supports lots of government power, thats what happens. (and btw, the top 1% pay about 1/3 of the federal income tax)

Oh and lol at the "costs to society". Yes, people like Bill Gates give us companies that produce software that benefits millions of people around the world, employs thousands. Indirectly increasing our economic prosperity because of all the increases in productivity provides. And you want to talk about "costs to society". God you are an idiot, but a predictable one none the less.

And there are thousands of people just like Gates who have done the same thing on a smaller scale with their ventures.

And you bitch about the "costs to society"? Please.

You worship government? That explains everything really.

I think I finally understand the mind of a progressive.
It all makes sense now. Wow, you people are seriously fucked in the head.

I believe he mentioned Wall Street, just to keep you on track.

And you are truly naive if you don't think corporations have pushed legislative initiatives which don't benefit the average American.

Hell try 5 minutes of Google and you will read about hundreds of bills passed at the State and Federal level for the sole purpose of benefitting corporations to the detriment of citizens.

Why is this even a discussion point?

 

[Zorkorist]

The discussion point is that you think all American's should be average, when of course American's, or corporations, should be free to be above average.

-John

 

[shortylickens]

The discussion point is that you think all American's should be average, when of course American's, or corporations, should be free to be above average.

-John

I agree with this whole heartedly.

Americans have become so spoiled over the years they honestly believe they can just vote themselves nice things. They dont realize they have to go to a place of business and produce a good or service of value.

 

[Zorkorist]

You espouse that, "From each, according to their means, to each, according to their ability."

-John

 

[Craig234]

The discussion point is that you think all American's should be average, when of course American's, or corporations, should be free to be above average.

-John

Completely false, showing only how little you understand about the other side's position.

It's a little straw man so simplistic you should really be embarrassed to have said it.

 

[Zorkorist]

It's not a straw man Craig... I'm not smart enough to do straw-men.

What I can do, is defend simple freedoms, like liberty, and justice for all.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

I admit he tweaked me, anyone that doesn't understand that corporations/economy, is the heart of America tweaks me, and so I apologize.

-John

 

[the DRIZZLE]

It's because it's too cheap and the masses are too uneducated so they believe bottled water > tap.

I have a purification system in-house, so YMMV but I like my tap water better than the bottles I do buy when I have to have something I can throw away.

The bottled water industry created A HUGE landfill issue plus pollution. On my commute I usually see 1-2 people throwing an empty water bottle out their window. I never see cans or cups oddly. In my logic this is because those that can afford better things wouldn't do this and those just scraping by don't want their car littered so they litter outside it.

It's sad.

I do filtered water because I'm cheap and lazy. Too cheap to pay for bottled water and to lazy to carry cases of it. I use a basic two stage carbon and sediment filter (not RO) and people compliment me on the taste of the water all the time. I'm actually surprised that its not a standard feature in kitchens by now.

The filters are only $20 and are good for 600 gallons so it comes out much cheaper than a bottled water or even a Brita pitcher in the long run.

 

[Eos]

It's not the government job to create jobs, it their job to create a positive atmosphere for companies large and small to create jobs.

It sure seems to be when its citizens whine about the President at the time not doing anything to create new jobs...