why is circumcision not child abuse?

[moshquerade]

this topic has been BEATEN TO DEATH!

i would love to put a lock on it.

 

[TheVrolok]

Obviously there are significant negative issues related to removing a female's labia... thereby making that an invalid analogy. A more apt analogy would be something like getting a baby's ears pierced...

Unfortunately there can (are?) significant negative issues related to removal of the foreskin (in the same way there would be with removing the labia) whether you choose to acknowledge them as such, or not. Getting a baby's ears pierced is not a valid analogy as there is no detriment to the ear post-piercing, while there is detriment to the penis post-circumcision. The circumcised penis is a lesser organ than that uncircumcised penis, this point is undeniable. What you CAN argue, is to what extent is it a lesser organ.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

It's not common knowledge around here, this is information I've never needed, and I don't know anyone who would ever have needed it. I guarantee that 99% of the people I know don't have this knowledge. You made a stupid assumption. Your a stupid idiot.

If you have a decent liberal arts education with at least some emphasis on multicultural affairs, and world religions (seriously don't know how you would avoid this with a "degree in Philosophy"), it is common knowledge. I didn't assume anything. I knew you didn't know. What did I assume? I simply attacked your displayed attitude. The knowledge is as common in GB as the USA with roughly the same proportion of Jewish populations. It's actually three times higher here, but still a very small percentage of both overall populations.

I'd also like to point out that it is 10x easier to google "X" than to ask the question on ATOT and await a reply, and then assume that reply is in earnest and correct.

If you truly don't care, don't ask.

LOGICS FTW!

 

[moshquerade]

Unfortunately there can (are?) significant negative issues related to removal of the foreskin (in the same way there would be with removing the labia) whether you choose to acknowledge them as such, or not. Getting a baby's ears pierced is not a valid analogy as there is no detriment to the ear post-piercing, while there is detriment to the penis post-circumcision. The circumcised penis is a lesser organ than that uncircumcised penis, this point is undeniable. What you CAN argue, is to what extent is it a lesser organ.

What detriment is there, really? Less sensitivity? Is that it? Holy hell, my bf doesn't NEED to be any more sensitive there.
And without having sex uncircumcised and then circumcised how does one actually know there is a difference?

This has been argued ad nauseam, and I feel there are points to be made for both sides of the issue.

But, oh no, circumcising your child is not child abuse. It's a choice made by a parent who is concerned with doing what is best for their child. There is no malicious intention or endangerment involved.

 

[TheVrolok]

It's not common knowledge around here, this is information I've never needed, and I don't know anyone who would ever have needed it. I guarantee that 99% of the people I know don't have this knowledge.

To be fair, I think it's pretty common knowledge.

 

[HAL9000]

If you have a decent liberal arts education with at least some emphasis on multicultural affairs, and world religions (seriously don't know how you would avoid this with a "degree in Philosophy"), it is common knowledge. I didn't assume anything. I knew you didn't know. What did I assume? I simply attacked your displayed attitude. The knowledge is as common in GB as the USA with roughly the same proportion of Jewish populations. It's actually three times higher here, but still a very small percentage of both overall populations.

In a philosophy degree we spend literally no time studying religious practices. We study philosophy and occasionally religious theology, not the practical application.

I'd also like to point out that it is 10x easier to google "X" than to ask the question on ATOT and await a reply, and then assume that reply is in earnest and correct.

If you truly don't care, don't ask.

LOGICS FTW!

I didn't ask, I simply stated I didn't know what it was, I was making the statement that I didn't understand the point he was making, I didn't ask what it meant nor did I google what it meant because I didn't care.

 

[HAL9000]

To be fair, I think it's pretty common knowledge.

I know a grand total of 0 Jewish people, so It's not that common around my way.

 

[TheVrolok]

What detriment is there, really? Less sensitivity? Is that it? Holy hell, my bf doesn't NEED to be any more sensitive there.
And without having sex uncircumcised and then circumcised how does one actually know there is a difference?

Read back through the 2 or 3 fairly lengthy posts I've made in this thread and you'll find I've said basically that. Yes, you lose sensitivity and can have other aesthetic issues. Are they usually end of the world issues? Nope. I've used the expression, "you can't miss what you never had" three times in this thread now. It's like this, though, if you were born with a decreased sense of smell, taste, etc... would you not wish you might be able to experience the full sense?

 

[TheVrolok]

I know a grand total of 0 Jewish people, so It's not that common around my way.

I know about that many growing up, as well, but I was exposed to things like TV, books, etc.

 

[moshquerade]

Read back through the 2 or 3 fairly lengthy posts I've made in this thread and you'll find I've said basically that. Yes, you lose sensitivity and can have other aesthetic issues. Are they usually end of the world issues? Nope. I've used the expression, "you can't miss what you never had" three times in this thread now. It's like this, though, if you were born with a decreased sense of smell, taste, etc... would you not wish you might be able to experience the full sense?

how do you know how much sensitivity is lost if you haven't experienced it first hand? That is my question.

 

[HAL9000]

I know about that many growing up, as well, but I was exposed to things like TV, books, etc.

So was I! None of them involved watching a jewish circumcision however.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

It's not common knowledge around here, this is information I've never needed, and I don't know anyone who would ever have needed it. I guarantee that 99% of the people I know don't have this knowledge. You made a stupid assumption. Your a stupid idiot.

You're the one who chose not to educate themselves on something they were admittedly ignorant of... SphinxnihpS was just trying to enlighten you, granted he could have left off the remark at the end, but I have a feeling you would have still found fault.

Hopefully ATOT now knows not to bother, and will in future leave you in your blissful ignorance.

PS. Lulz at

Your a stupid idiot.

 

[TheVrolok]

how do you know how much sensitivity is lost if you haven't experienced it first hand? That is my question.

You don't, and that's what I've said. It's a very subjective discussion to have which is why it gets so heated I think. Some cut men seems to take the notion that they have reduced pleasure during sexual activity as some kind of assault on their manhood, when it isn't that at all. Do I know, by what percentage, pleasure/sensitivity is reduced? Nope. However, I (and any man will agree) do know that the frenulum is one of the most sensitive (second/tied only to/with the glans) areas on the penis and in circumcision often at the very least some, if not all of it is removed. So take it for what it's worth.

 

[TheVrolok]

So was I! None of them involved watching a jewish circumcision however.

I can remember a fairly funny Seinfeld episode about it, and that SNL commercial sketch about a car ride being so smooth even a Mohel used it for circumcisions. Those are just two references of the absolute top of my head without hearing it mentioned anywhere else. So I wasn't watching circumcisions, either.

 

[HAL9000]

You're the one who chose not to educate themselves on something they were admittedly ignorant of... SphinxnihpS was just trying to enlighten you, granted he could have left off the remark at the end, but I have a feeling you would have still found fault.

Hopefully ATOT now knows not to bother, and will in future leave you in your blissful ignorance.

PS. Lulz at

I'm happy to confess this is now information that I know that before I didn't. I accept that, i'm not debating it, that's a fact. What I'm debating is that it is common knowledge, maybe it is around your way, but not around mine.

I'm fine with telling you I don't know everything, I'm fine with telling you there are somethings I don't need or want to know about. There are other things I'm more interested in than the methodology involved in Jewish circumcision, things like how they make bubble wrap or who the tallest man in Liechtenstein is.

 

[HAL9000]

I can remember a fairly funny Seinfeld episode about it, and that SNL commercial sketch about a car ride being so smooth even a Mohel used it for circumcisions. Those are just two references of the absolute top of my head without hearing it mentioned anywhere else. So I wasn't watching circumcisions, either.

Fair enough, I was never a fan of Seinfeld, and I've never seen SNL.

 

[Fritzo]

It's not because girls don't like a trunk on your junk.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

In a philosophy degree we spend literally no time studying religious practices. We study philosophy and occasionally religious theology, not the practical application.



I didn't ask, I simply stated I didn't know what it was, I was making the statement that I didn't understand the point he was making, I didn't ask what it meant nor did I google what it meant because I didn't care.

Really? I studied a great deal of philosophy and it always included history and context. Then again seeing as how you manage to ask a deluge of the most asinine questions possible, I can see where your professors may have had to skip 75% of their planned course material to instead deal with you. There wasn't by chance an elevated rate of faculty suicide at your institution in the years (or weeks) you were attending was they're?

 

[TheVrolok]

Fair enough, I was never a fan of Seinfeld, and I've never seen SNL.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/25/the-25-best-snl-commercia_n_299295.html?slidenumber=9

 

[HAL9000]

Really? I studied a great deal of philosophy and it always included history and context. Then again seeing as how you manage to ask a deluge of the most asinine questions possible, I can see where your professors may have had to skip 75% of their planned course material to instead deal with you. There wasn't by chance an elevated rate of faculty suicide at your institution in the years (or weeks) you were attending was they're?

Righto, so what useful Philosophical theory did you learn from Jewish circumcision ritual? This was not covered by my course, we focused mainly on people like Plato or Nietzsche absurd huh?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/25/the-25-best-snl-commercia_n_299295.html?slidenumber=9

I was looking for something like that, thanks dude!

 

[PlasmaBomb]

I'm happy to confess this is now information that I know that before I didn't. I accept that, i'm not debating it, that's a fact. What I'm debating is that it is common knowledge, maybe it is around your way, but not around mine.

I'm fine with telling you I don't know everything, I'm fine with telling you there are somethings I don't need or want to know about. There are other things I'm more interested in than the methodology involved in Jewish circumcision, things like how they make bubble wrap or who the tallest man in Liechtenstein is.

How do they make bubblewrap?

 

[HAL9000]

How do they make bubblewrap?

Apparently, it's a film with small resin balls placed on the top, the balls are then heated until they expand and fill with air creating bubbles

 

[SirStev0]

Medical Reasons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphimosis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoon%27s_balanitis

and most the horrible that I have seen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanitis_xerotica_obliterans

There is of course:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penile_cancer


I have actually performed circumcisions on newborns and assisted on Adolescent and Adult Circs.

They do have a medical need in certain situations.

The vast majority is either Religious or to match dad. Its become part of our culture. Esp White Christian.

Phimosis is particularly tough on adolescent boys because they start to notice it at the most awkward part of their life. It'd be a much more common occurrence if most boys weren't circ'ed as infants. Estimates are about 60% are circumcised in the US.


My personal position is whatever the fuck people want to do. There are tons of stupid ass things people do for no other reason than that is what everyone has always done.

If medicine has taught me anything its that people don't really want to be educated. And they sure as hell aren't going to believe what I say. Everyone already knows better than I do apparently.

 

[Vette73]

this topic has been BEATEN TO DEATH!

i would love to put a lock on it.

Lock?

 

[tcsenter]

Go read up on John Harvey Kellogg sometime, and his opinions on human sexuality, its kinda sickening.

It is worth nothing that Kellogg endorsed circ in response to excessive masturbation where nothing else worked. i.e. infants don't masturbate, thus his masturbation-curtailing objectives for circ were only intended for adolescents.

In Kellogg's day, there were still a sizable percentage of the population being raised in very isolated and impoverished conditions, children being raised with little social development (and perhaps even some developmental limitations due to birth defects, poor nutrition, childhood fevers that caused some mild brain damage, et al), and where behavioral disorders such as compulsive masturbation were actually something that doctors might see more than a couple times in their career.

e.g. kids who masturbate everywhere, like the girl who was locked in a closet with no social interaction until she was seven years old. When they rescued her, she couldn't speak any language, she couldn't read, she couldn't even understand any language. She was extremely compulsive and prone to tantrums. And yes, she would just start masturbating any time, any place, in public, around other people, when she was alone, etc.