Why I believe Israel shouldnt attack Iran's nuclear factories

[Lemon law]

And JEDIYoda is very naive to think Israel can maintain its military hegemony for long with out the US support we have given then for free for over 40 years, if Uncle Sam cuts Israel off without a dime, the Israeli economy would be really hurting in short order. And collapse in under a year.

As it is, after the Israeli rapes of Lebanon and Gaza, Israel has already lost significant US popular support. And outside of the USA, its far worse from the Israeli perspective. Prior to Pearl harbor, Hitler and keep us out of WW2 movements had quite a bit of popular support inside the USA, but that support still vanished over night by 12/8/1941.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Any Iranian bombing by Israel would absolutely justify Iran using ballistic missiles. However it would be a feeble Iranian response unless Iran is willing to use war head consisting of illegal chemical, biological or radiological components because these Iranian ballistic missiles are too expensive to waste carrying just conventional explosives.

.

according to you, unless a missle hits a country (aka israel). that country(israel) can NOT attack to defend itself.

it doesnt matter if that missle was shot down before it could hit israel too. only if it hits.


secondly, yes I do think the US would be actively defending Israel. Unless Israel is attacked by Iran or the US gives the go to attack Iran, Israel wont move. they respect and need the US to back them up.


thirdly, I LAUGH at you lemon law. You honestly expect every arab in the world to turn on Israel. except for the extreme nut cases who follow one line of the koran like its fucking day and night, most muslims want PEACE. If egypt, jordan, and saudi arabia are giving israel a go, its because they know it is the right thing and best interest in their country.

I bet you that if a war breaks bc of Iran, whoever hits what side first. Egypt and Jordan will be on Israel's side while syria and lebanon would be against it, having Saudi arabia being neutral and not taking sides.

you have to remember that Iranian muslims and Saudi Arabia muslims are different, being suni or shiite. they hate eachother just as much as they hate jews.

 

[piasabird]

It is the UN that said it was moving peace keepers into Lebanon? Do you think they can keep the peace? Do you really fear the UN could attack any country that was misbehaving? What is the UN doing to help the people in the Dar Fur Region from being assasinated? The USA tried to goad them into action and they have done nothing! Dont expect the UN to do anything unless the USA is doing it.

 

[senseamp]

U.N. = United Nations. If member nations don't want to contribute forces to a UN mission, there isn't one. If USA wanted a UN mission to Darfur, then USA should have led by example by contributing troops to such a mission. Kind of silly to blame others for not doing what we said but what we did, which is nothing.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Iran is still in IAEA compliance and other than the USA and Israel, the entire rest of the world is not buying the Iranian sanctions arguments being pushed by either Israel or the USA.
.

HAHAHA you should be a comedian.

They do not let anyone in their factories without the clearance of the government.

You think that only the US and Israel care that they are getting nuclear capabilities?

why in the fuck would 3 ARAB countries allow Israel to carry out an attack? you think they want Iran to have nukes?


Its the same thing with NK. yea, Japan, SK, hawaii and maybe some other countries are at risk, and maybe they are the only people you hear talking about it, but the WORLD does not want them to get nukes? why because they have a radical leader who wants to start a war, already saying that they will shoot down anything that gets in their air space.

sounds much like Iran to me... hmmm


one second of google news link here

 

[senseamp]

Who in their right mind would let people into their nuclear factories without government clearance?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
And JEDIYoda is very naive to think Israel can maintain its military hegemony for long with out the US support we have given then for free for over 40 years, if Uncle Sam cuts Israel off without a dime, the Israeli economy would be really hurting in short order. And collapse in under a year.

As it is, after the Israeli rapes of Lebanon and Gaza, Israel has already lost significant US popular support. And outside of the USA, its far worse from the Israeli perspective. Prior to Pearl harbor, Hitler and keep us out of WW2 movements had quite a bit of popular support inside the USA, but that support still vanished over night by 12/8/1941.

lets address this issue first....
Before the US stepped in Israel did just fine without us!!
You my friend are so out of touch that Nieve does not even come close to describing you!!

Israel has NEVER needed our assistance nor have they ever asked for our assistance.
In fact they truly arew capable of taking care of buisness without our interference!!

You really have no statistical facts to back up any of your above statements that Israel actually needs our assistance.....

In fact most of what you think you know you have no clue when all is said and done Israel needs not our meddling in their affairs.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Its may be all well and fine for freshgeardude to say, "Iran needs to be taken care of, not by Israel alone or at all imo, but by the world.", but the problem is that Israel is the only country really driving holding that position. Maybe Israel can drag the USA into their camp by using their inside the USA Israeli lobby, but still, Iran is still in IAEA compliance and other than the USA and Israel, the entire rest of the world is not buying the Iranian sanctions arguments being pushed by either Israel or the USA. -- thats not actually true...since when do you speak for the rest of the world??

And if the rest of the world is not buying that other more effective use international sanctions to force Iranian compliance, there goes any argument that Israel will have any international support in any bombing of Iran. 5% just is not an international consensus.
Why do you believe that Israel cares about or needs the support of the rest of the world??? They don`t! When it is time to act israel will act as a soverign nation and nothing the rest of the world can say will matter!

As it is, the UN has remaining little faith in the US after it has botched both Iraq and Afghanistan. And any semi-UN renewal of GWB's occupation of Iraq would have expired on 12/31/2008 had not GWB agreed to firm and phased withdrawal terms.

Again who made you spokesman for the UN????
Nobody cares about what the UN thinks believes or for that matter sanctions!! The UN has no teeth and the UN needs to be dismantiled!!

A lot of Israeli fan boys are only lying to themselves if they claim much of any world support for their position. As for Israel, it would have been long ago facing crushing UN condemnation if Uncle Sucker quit a blanket veto policy in the security council. As for Israel, its facing a pending UN investigation into Israeli atrocities committed during its recent Gaza incursion. And if the recently released Amnesty international report is any guide, its going to very damning to Israel. For what its worth, it condemned Hamas as well, but any Hamas condemnation still does not elevate Israel behavior in any way.

Again nobody is claiming that Israel is seeking support from the world!! Quite frankly Israel needs no support or approval from the UN or the rest of the world!
Ohh.....boohoo Israel is facing a Un Investigation...that is way too funny!! True or not....the UN has no teeth and the UN is a freakin joke!!
Who cares about anything Amnesty international has to say.....they need to get there own house in order!!
You my friend are so funny and pathetic at the same time.......you are your might UN....Un this..UN that...rofl!!

Wake up and smell the roses...NOBODY cares about the UN!!

Now we can address these issues in bolded....

 

[Lemon law]

JEDIYoda, to some extent you have my opinion and I have mine, but on a more serious tone, you and I are trying to predict future and world opinions regarding future possible events.

If GWB&co were still in charge, I would say your arguments would have greater weight, but Obama has his own visions of a diplomatic stance for the mid-east, has so far straddle the fence on the dare to offend the US pro Israeli lobby question, but I suspect some future Israeli action will force Obama off that fence. With that defining Israeli event being something unlikely to be a pre-emtive Israeli bombing of Iran.

As it is Israelis defying both Obama and the rest of the world on halting ongoing Israeli settlement in the West Bank, Obama is also likely to keep pushing for a Palestinian State, we already know Obama is reaching out to Arab Muslims, I already mentioned that UN report likely to chastise Israel over its Gaza war crimes, and if Israel wishes to keep dragging its feet and frustrating Obama foreign policy, Israel is likely to find Obama is far less likely than GWB to have a blank check for Israel foreign policy.

If and when Israel forces Obama off his fence, and forces Obama to totally disavow some future Israeli action, we will know that I am more likely than you to be right. And Obama can do it quietly or publically. Just forgetting to veto some UN resolution against Israel can send that message loud and clear.

The other factor to mention is that the recent Iranian election protests which Obama hopes to profit from. Obama may have a funny way of showing that hope by staying the hell out, but its still, IMHO, the smartest course. And if any Israeli saber rattling tends to send Iranians rallying around the Mullah's, its again not likely to exactly amuse Obama.

Earth to JEDIYoda, GWB is no longer President so don't use the events of the past eight years as any guide. Obama has a lot on his plate now, but he still has ambitious overall plans, and if Obama does start to turn up the heat on Israel, he is likely to seek massive international support if he is forced to take on the pro Israel US lobby.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

GWB is no longer President so don't use the events of the past eight years as any guide.

Oh did this have me chuckle.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Who in their right mind would let people into their nuclear factories without government clearance?

you sir win the "I am a fucking moron idiot" award.


you either are trying to act dumb or really have no idea what I am saying in that post.


Iran does not let anyone, especially from the IAEA into their factory. Only people that do are the people making uranium.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: senseamp
Who in their right mind would let people into their nuclear factories without government clearance?

you sir win the "I am a fucking moron idiot" award.


you either are trying to act dumb or really have no idea what I am saying in that post.


Iran does not let anyone, especially from the IAEA into their factory. Only people that do are the people making uranium.

Does Israel let IAEA into its nuclear facilities?

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: senseamp
Who in their right mind would let people into their nuclear factories without government clearance?

you sir win the "I am a fucking moron idiot" award.


you either are trying to act dumb or really have no idea what I am saying in that post.


Iran does not let anyone, especially from the IAEA into their factory. Only people that do are the people making uranium.

Does Israel let IAEA into its nuclear facilities?

no but they dont call for the destruction of another country nor actually have them aimed at/ attacking another country.

thats is why the world is fine with them having them, because they arent a threat and wont use them to attack unless attacked on with one.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
JEDIYoda, to some extent you have my opinion and I have mine, but on a more serious tone, you and I are trying to predict future and world opinions regarding future possible events.

If GWB&co were still in charge, I would say your arguments would have greater weight, but Obama has his own visions of a diplomatic stance for the mid-east, has so far straddle the fence on the dare to offend the US pro Israeli lobby question, but I suspect some future Israeli action will force Obama off that fence. With that defining Israeli event being something unlikely to be a pre-emtive Israeli bombing of Iran.

As it is Israelis defying both Obama and the rest of the world on halting ongoing Israeli settlement in the West Bank, Obama is also likely to keep pushing for a Palestinian State, we already know Obama is reaching out to Arab Muslims, I already mentioned that UN report likely to chastise Israel over its Gaza war crimes, and if Israel wishes to keep dragging its feet and frustrating Obama foreign policy, Israel is likely to find Obama is far less likely than GWB to have a blank check for Israel foreign policy.

If and when Israel forces Obama off his fence, and forces Obama to totally disavow some future Israeli action, we will know that I am more likely than you to be right. And Obama can do it quietly or publically. Just forgetting to veto some UN resolution against Israel can send that message loud and clear.

The other factor to mention is that the recent Iranian election protests which Obama hopes to profit from. Obama may have a funny way of showing that hope by staying the hell out, but its still, IMHO, the smartest course. And if any Israeli saber rattling tends to send Iranians rallying around the Mullah's, its again not likely to exactly amuse Obama.

Earth to JEDIYoda, GWB is no longer President so don't use the events of the past eight years as any guide. Obama has a lot on his plate now, but he still has ambitious overall plans, and if Obama does start to turn up the heat on Israel, he is likely to seek massive international support if he is forced to take on the pro Israel US lobby.

Earth to lemon law.....all conjecture on your part!
The bottom line is israel does NOT need world opinion...nor do they need our assistance.
With or without our assistance they will continue on as a nation.

Also let me point out that if we were not in the picture at all things might be a whole lot different for all partys concerned.
You see if we had stayed totally out of the picture and was not giving anything to israel at all......what has transpired in the middle east over the last 60 years or so would be totally different.
You see with the United states in the picture I srael has become comfortable and almost docile.
You take us out of the picture totally and Israel all of a sudden has to go for the jugular in order to survive.....and survive they surely will!!

 

[Lemon law]

JEDIYoda has to be out of his mind to say, " You see with the United states in the picture Israel has become comfortable and almost docile. You take us out of the picture totally and Israel all of a sudden has to go for the jugular in order to survive.....and survive they surely will!!"

I hardly think the rape of Lebanon and Gaza is anyone vision of a docile Israel. Nor is Israel continued settlement of the West Bank that dooms any hope of a Palestinian State any rational person vision of either reason or docility.

Take the USA out of the picture, the very USA who has given Israel its military hegemony free gratis, and how long will that military hegemony last in any kind of war of attrition? The odds are 6 million Jews against 3 million super hostile Palestinians plus 275 million Arabs who have ever reason to hate and despise Israel. Push the Turks off the fence and they have the first class military able to take on Israel on land. And you can bet both Syria and Lebanon would would give the Turks rights of passage. Add in terrorist who would be embolden and suddenly Israel would be lashing out at all its neighbors like some sort of rapid Pit Bull if Israel thinks they can play the aggresion card.

And now you assert that Israel, for little reason can be even more aggressive to its neighbors without forcing them into direct confrontation with Israel on a long term basis. JEDIYoda, without USA massive aid, where the hell will Israel get the supplies and material to maintain its military and economy in any war of attrition.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: senseamp
Who in their right mind would let people into their nuclear factories without government clearance?

you sir win the "I am a fucking moron idiot" award.


you either are trying to act dumb or really have no idea what I am saying in that post.


Iran does not let anyone, especially from the IAEA into their factory. Only people that do are the people making uranium.

Does Israel let IAEA into its nuclear facilities?

Israel never signed the NPT, while Iran did. That means Iran agreed to safeguards, including inspections, while Israel never did.

It may not be the answer you want, but it ultimately comes down to one state saying they wouldn't make them and that you can check them if they want, while the other one didn't. India and Pakistan did the same.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The first 20 years of Israel's existence was done without the US support.
3 conflicts against that Arabs; three times the Arabs went crying to the UN for protection.

In all three; Israel stopped instead of destroying the opponent.

The same has happened in Lebanon at least twice against Hezbollah and the PLO.
The same has also happened in Gaza when under control of Hamas and Arafat.

Israel has used restraint that their opponents have never shown.

Cut Israel off from any influence and they have no incentive to not solve their problems next time without being concerned about what the UN and/or the world thinks.

The track record has shown that Israel has to go at it alone; what would be the difference.

And to think that the Arab meddlers are not presently planning how to use their proxies again is very naive.

 

[Lemon law]

I have to concede the Common Courtesy point of, "The first 20 years of Israel's existence was done without the US support.
3 conflicts against that Arabs; three times the Arabs went crying to the UN for protection."

But still, the question becomes, can Israel believe in a one trick pony strategy or count on being 4 times lucky. I might remind you in the longer pre-WW2 history of Japan, they had never lost a war either.

Meanwhile, the Arab position is a moving target, and the question of land captured in the 1967 war not being Israel's by bright of conquest still lingers. Even crazy Achmadenjad, by referring to wiping Israel off the map really means the return of Israel to post 1948 borders with the return of land captured post 1967. And a current Arab willingness to accept the State of Israel on those basic terms to be negotiated, as evidenced by the very recent Annapolis peace conference put together by Condi Rice.

And the whole Annapolis conference would have instantly collapsed if the Arab's had not agreed to table the issue of continual Israeli settlement on the West Bank which continued at a rapid pace. As it is the Annapolis conference produced nothing, IMHO, largely because Israel was not willing to be a peace partner on anything but totally one sided terms.

And because most of the world and 275 million Arabs want some reasonable and fair peace terms for the mid-east, at a certain point the totally one sided interests of only 6 million Jews can't with stand the greatest good for the greatest number. My guess, Israel, by choosing to rely on only military hegemony, is risking its long term survival. The Israeli negotiating position will perhaps never be stronger than it is today, they that rely on on the sword die by the sword in the long term.

May I remind all, despite 61 years of constant Israeli repression, the level of anti-Israeli terrorism remains undiminished, meanwhile Israel keeps ramping up the level of hatreds, and are we going to have to wait until terrorists acquire chemical, biological, and radiological weapons and the means to deliver them inside the State of Israel? And perhaps making all of Israel uninhabitable?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
JEDIYoda has to be out of his mind to say, " You see with the United states in the picture Israel has become comfortable and almost docile. You take us out of the picture totally and Israel all of a sudden has to go for the jugular in order to survive.....and survive they surely will!!"

I hardly think the rape of Lebanon and Gaza is anyone vision of a docile Israel. Nor is Israel continued settlement of the West Bank that dooms any hope of a Palestinian State any rational person vision of either reason or docility.

Take the USA out of the picture, the very USA who has given Israel its military hegemony free gratis, and how long will that military hegemony last in any kind of war of attrition? The odds are 6 million Jews against 3 million super hostile Palestinians plus 275 million Arabs who have ever reason to hate and despise Israel. Push the Turks off the fence and they have the first class military able to take on Israel on land. And you can bet both Syria and Lebanon would would give the Turks rights of passage. Add in terrorist who would be embolden and suddenly Israel would be lashing out at all its neighbors like some sort of rapid Pit Bull if Israel thinks they can play the aggresion card.

And now you assert that Israel, for little reason can be even more aggressive to its neighbors without forcing them into direct confrontation with Israel on a long term basis. JEDIYoda, without USA massive aid, where the hell will Israel get the supplies and material to maintain its military and economy in any war of attrition.

again your level of nievete is astinishing!!
You keep regurgitating the same dribble that you have been spouting over and over.
As Common Courtesy stated --
The first 20 years of Israel's existence was done without the US support.
3 conflicts against that Arabs; three times the Arabs went crying to the UN for protection.

In all three; Israel stopped instead of destroying the opponent.

The same has happened in Lebanon at least twice against Hezbollah and the PLO.
The same has also happened in Gaza when under control of Hamas and Arafat.

Israel has used restraint that their opponents have never shown.

Cut Israel off from any influence and they have no incentive to not solve their problems next time without being concerned about what the UN and/or the world thinks.

The track record has shown that Israel has to go at it alone; what would be the difference.

And to think that the Arab meddlers are not presently planning how to use their proxies again is very naive.

The difference is in the level of restraint that israel has been able to use against there oppononents because the US is involved!

Again cut israel off from any influence whatsoever from anybody and you make it so Israel can deal swift and punishing retribution against their enemies!!

Of course we will rehash this over and over because you lemon law just don`t seem to get the bigger picture.....

You use arguments that you cannot support and your logic is in the crapper.....
You call Israel Lucky?? That is perplexing at best.....
To belive that you actually posted more of this nonesense......
All your diatribe such as - may I remind you that prior to WW2 Japan has never lost a war iether...has nothing to do with anything......

Then you become the spokesman for most of the worlds Arabs....
I am sorry lemon law but most of the worlds Arabs do NOT want reasonable and fair peace terms!!
In fact most of the worlds Arabs actually don`t give a shit!

No you may not remind us of anything!!
You blame this whole mess on Israel ramping up the level of hatred...lol...

At least your true colors are showing!!

Shalom!!

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: senseamp
Who in their right mind would let people into their nuclear factories without government clearance?

you sir win the "I am a fucking moron idiot" award.


you either are trying to act dumb or really have no idea what I am saying in that post.


Iran does not let anyone, especially from the IAEA into their factory. Only people that do are the people making uranium.

Does Israel let IAEA into its nuclear facilities?

Israel never signed the NPT, while Iran did. That means Iran agreed to safeguards, including inspections, while Israel never did.

It may not be the answer you want, but it ultimately comes down to one state saying they wouldn't make them and that you can check them if they want, while the other one didn't. India and Pakistan did the same.

OK, so if Iran withdrew from NPT, that would address your problem with them not allowing inspections?

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: senseamp
Who in their right mind would let people into their nuclear factories without government clearance?

you sir win the "I am a fucking moron idiot" award.


you either are trying to act dumb or really have no idea what I am saying in that post.


Iran does not let anyone, especially from the IAEA into their factory. Only people that do are the people making uranium.

Does Israel let IAEA into its nuclear facilities?

Israel never signed the NPT, while Iran did. That means Iran agreed to safeguards, including inspections, while Israel never did.

It may not be the answer you want, but it ultimately comes down to one state saying they wouldn't make them and that you can check them if they want, while the other one didn't. India and Pakistan did the same.

OK, so if Iran withdrew from NPT, that would address your problem with them not allowing inspections?

refer to my post.

seems like you avoided it

 

[senseamp]

You do realize that NPT allows Iran to pursue nuclear power, including uranium enrichment for reactors?

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: senseamp
You do realize that NPT allows Iran to pursue nuclear power, including uranium enrichment for reactors?

whatever it does, it includes people inspecting the factory which they are not allowing


you are such an idiot.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: senseamp
You do realize that NPT allows Iran to pursue nuclear power, including uranium enrichment for reactors?

whatever it does, it includes people inspecting the factory which they are not allowing


you are such an idiot.

They are allowing inspections of declared nuclear sites.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I have to concede the Common Courtesy point of, "The first 20 years of Israel's existence was done without the US support.
3 conflicts against that Arabs; three times the Arabs went crying to the UN for protection."

But still, the question becomes, can Israel believe in a one trick pony strategy or count on being 4 times lucky. I might remind you in the longer pre-WW2 history of Japan, they had never lost a war either.

Meanwhile, the Arab position is a moving target, and the question of land captured in the 1967 war not being Israel's by bright of conquest still lingers. Even crazy Achmadenjad, by referring to wiping Israel off the map really means the return of Israel to post 1948 borders with the return of land captured post 1967. And a current Arab willingness to accept the State of Israel on those basic terms to be negotiated, as evidenced by the very recent Annapolis peace conference put together by Condi Rice.

And the whole Annapolis conference would have instantly collapsed if the Arab's had not agreed to table the issue of continual Israeli settlement on the West Bank which continued at a rapid pace. As it is the Annapolis conference produced nothing, IMHO, largely because Israel was not willing to be a peace partner on anything but totally one sided terms.

And because most of the world and 275 million Arabs want some reasonable and fair peace terms for the mid-east, at a certain point the totally one sided interests of only 6 million Jews can't with stand the greatest good for the greatest number. My guess, Israel, by choosing to rely on only military hegemony, is risking its long term survival. The Israeli negotiating position will perhaps never be stronger than it is today, they that rely on on the sword die by the sword in the long term.
What is considered fair and reasonable to the Arabs now days was not considered to be fair & reasonable pre-67. Fair and reasonable has been a moving target depending on which side of the fence and what their intentions are.

The 67 borders are the last time the Arabs initially attacked and lost ground. It is a political line of appeasement and forgiveness.


May I remind all, despite 61 years of constant Israeli repression, the level of anti-Israeli terrorism remains undiminished, meanwhile Israel keeps ramping up the level of hatreds, and are we going to have to wait until terrorists acquire chemical, biological, and radiological weapons and the means to deliver them inside the State of Israel? And perhaps making all of Israel uninhabitable?

The level of terrorism is not going to go down as long as there are sponsors that have nothing to lose. As also been demonstrated over the years; the sponsors and terrorists do not care at all for the impact on any Palestinians.

Israel has had to ramp up the counter measures because playing tit for tat and/or expecting promises to behave have not accomplished anything over the past 60+ years. The terrorists treat this as weakness and attempt to exploit it. Civilian causalities mean nothing except for propaganda.