Why I believe Israel shouldnt attack Iran's nuclear factories

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: senseamp

You never respond with equal force. If you are at war, you play to win.
If you are attacked, you open up the biggest can of whoop @ss you have. Israel knows that better than anyone.

Riiight.....because that is how the world has worked since the proverbial genie has been out of the bottle......


What recent wars have you studied again?

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: senseamp

You never respond with equal force. If you are at war, you play to win.
If you are attacked, you open up the biggest can of whoop @ss you have. Israel knows that better than anyone.

Riiight.....because that is how the world has worked since the proverbial genie has been out of the bottle......


What recent wars have you studied again?

Have you heard of use it or lose it? Fairly standard doctrine that if your enemy goes for your nukes, you use those nukes on them before they get a chance to take them out.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: piasabird
I think Isreal would have already bombed Iran, but the department of state of the USA asked them not to while our troops are there in Iraq. It makes me laugh when someone says it would be a totally illegal act if Isreal or the USA Bombed Iran. The reason for this is it was Iran who supplied, paid for, and sponsored the Terrorists (Hezbolah) that occupy Lebanan and attacked Isreal with rockets and short range missles. Also Iranian Military personnel were with these terrorists that attacked Isreal. If the world was fair we would have had an all out attack with USA and Isreali forces against Iran at that time with more than enough justification under international Law. It would have just been a justified act of self defense.

Iran has also been training and supplying militants in both Iraq and Afghanistan. They do this because it makes it look like Iran is not an aggressor and the terrorists cause unrest and chaos in the region while Iran sits pretty and is not attacked. All I can say is that eventually the rest of the world will demand retribution for Iran's militant actions. Payback is coming, it is just a matter of when and how. I think it will be swift and it will be overwhelming. If the true Iranian people do not want to be killed in their sleep, they better wake up and get rid of these radical religious leaders that are pushing their country to the brink of war and destruction. This is what happens when religious fascists run your country. All dictators like Sadam and Noriega eventually get their come-uppance!

And even Democraticly elected leaders get taken out by a US supported coup, like Argentina and Iran.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Have you heard of use it or lose it? Fairly standard doctrine that if your enemy goes for your nukes, you use those nukes on them before they get a chance to take them out.

Iran doesnt have nukes yet...so what is your point?


You said "if you are attacked, you open the biggest can of whoopass you possibly can."


Lets just take a look at some of the recent conflicts where there could have been nukes used, but there werent. You are making up BS. :


Korean War
Vietnam
Faulkland Islands
Gulf I
Panama
Bosnia/Kosovo
Somalia
Recent Israeli wars (they have nukes)
Russian Invasion of Afghanistan
American Invasion of Afghanistan
Iraqi Freedom
Georgia/South Ossetia


Yes, you MUST open that can of whoop ass, with everything youve got! :roll:

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: senseamp

Have you heard of use it or lose it? Fairly standard doctrine that if your enemy goes for your nukes, you use those nukes on them before they get a chance to take them out.

Iran doesnt have nukes yet...so what is your point?


You said "if you are attacked, you open the biggest can of whoopass you possibly can."


Lets just take a look at some of the recent conflicts where there could have been nukes used, but there werent. You are making up BS. :


Korean War
Vietnam
Faulkland Islands
Gulf I
Panama
Bosnia/Kosovo
Somalia
Recent Israeli wars (they have nukes)
Russian Invasion of Afghanistan
American Invasion of Afghanistan
Iraqi Freedom
Georgia/South Ossetia


Yes, you MUST open that can of whoop ass, with everything youve got! :roll:

You certainly have a RIGHT to open one up, and there should be no expectation by Israel that they'll get a symmetrical response limited to what they want it to be limited to, since they would be the aggressor by launching a strike on Iran. Those examples are completely irrelevant to anything, since these were not cases where a country with ability to launch a nuclear weapon was attacked by another country. Plus in many of those cases overwhelming force was unleashed, and we weren't even attacked.

 

[Lemon law]

I see JEDIYoda asserts, " Its too bad that you don't understand the concept of cause and effect. If someone ruins a country, then someone else has to fix it."

OK, even if I buy your argument and believe that Israel has also failed to live up to its potential as a country, and largely because its leadership has become a one sided pack of thieves when its should have granted equal rights to its mix of Jewish and Palestinian citizens, fixing Israel is not as easy as it seems.

And Israel can't fix Iran either. And will be counterproductive in the extreme when any Israeli bombing of Iran would only unite the whole country behind the Mullahs and likely entail enough Iranian revenge to end Israel as a country.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I see JEDIYoda asserts, " Its too bad that you don't understand the concept of cause and effect. If someone ruins a country, then someone else has to fix it."

OK, even if I buy your argument and believe that Israel has also failed to live up to its potential as a country, and largely because its leadership has become a one sided pack of thieves when its should have granted equal rights to its mix of Jewish and Palestinian citizens, fixing Israel is not as easy as it seems.

And Israel can't fix Iran either. And will be counterproductive in the extreme when any Israeli bombing of Iran would only unite the whole country behind the Mullahs and likely entail enough Iranian revenge to end Israel as a country.

What I find to be very perplexing about you lemon law is you honestly believe thew UN can do all these preposterous things.....
Such as take away Israel`s land.....why is that because the UN gave it to them?
Hell the UN has a history of being useless when it comes to settling dipsutes...

The only kudos I give to the Un is there programs that have to do with the children of the world!

There you go again putting words into peoples mouths again...where did mi say --
Israel has also failed to live up to its potential as a country, and largely because its leadership has become a one sided pack of thieves when its should have granted equal rights to its mix of Jewish and Palestinian citizens, fixing Israel is not as easy as it seems.

One of the problems people who live in the US have is that they believe the rest of the world has an obligation to abide by our Constitution...our Bill of Rights...our Declaration of Independence...etc.....

Just for your information....
The country is called Israel! The people living there do not have to abide by our Constitution...our Bill of Rights...our Declaration of Independence...etc.....

As far as how the palestinians are treated we both understand the concept that they elected Hamas and they essentially made their own bed......

I am sorry but they have had chance after chance after chance to live peacefully but NO...the Palestinians are their own worst nightmare.......

I am sorry but I have no sympathy for the plight of a nation who refuses to treat themselves with respect and elect leaders who have the best interest of the Palestinians in mind.

Again it`s easy to say things like--
its should have granted equal rights to its mix of Jewish and Palestinian citizens,
Pray tell who besides us foloows our Constitution....etc?

The cold hard reality is Israel does not need fixing!!!
The Palestinians need fixing........who in their right mind would elect a group who has no interest in a Palestinian state whatsoever?? -- ie Hamas......
makes you wonder if it is only the rest of the world who desires to see a Palestinian state.
By their very action I find it hard to beleieve that a group of people called Palestinians want to have a state with a government that works for the people......

Interesting concept!

Finally the UN will never do didly nor can they do didly against Israel. The UN`s wished for involment will never happen....the Un does not have the cohones to get involved in any fair and meaningful way!!

 

[senseamp]

There should be no illusion that Israel bombing Iran would be Israel declaring a war on Iran. It's not just an air isolated air strike, any more than Pearl Harbor was just an isolated air strike. If Israel wants to start a war, it should be preparing for a war, not an air strike.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: senseamp
There should be no illusion that Israel bombing Iran would be Israel declaring a war on Iran. It's not just an air isolated air strike, any more than Pearl Harbor was just an isolated air strike. If Israel wants to start a war, it should be preparing for a war, not an air strike.

And guess who will be dragged into it to help?

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: senseamp
There should be no illusion that Israel bombing Iran would be Israel declaring a war on Iran. It's not just an air isolated air strike, any more than Pearl Harbor was just an isolated air strike. If Israel wants to start a war, it should be preparing for a war, not an air strike.

And guess who will be dragged into it to help?

I am sure it's their plan. Provoke Iran, then come crying to uncle Sam for help. We should dissuade them from this notion ahead of time.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: senseamp


I am sure it's their plan. Provoke Iran, then come crying to uncle Sam for help. We should dissuade them from this notion ahead of time.

They wont cry to anything. Iran has already said they will try and close of the Straight of Hormuz. It is a major shipping lane, and we will consider it an attack against us.

We dont send them equipment and massive amounts of $$$ for no reason.


The Israeli lobby is extremely powerful in the USA. They have people on both sides of the aisle by the balls.

 

[Freshgeardude]

and THAT is the reason for my post. I do not want Israel to attack Iran. The world besides Israel know Iran is fucking nuts. Jordan and Egypt, and someone posted here, Saudi Arabia, are all for Israel taking out a nuclear Iran. Egypt and Jordan have even said that they are completely on israels side of the matter. Why? because they do not need a nuclear bomb to go off near them. They dont need their countries in danger.

Iran needs to be taken care of, not by Israel alone or at all imo, but by the world.

If the world attacks Iran's factories and then Iran tries to attack/blame Israel. Who will there be to blame?

it could be possible that if the US is the one to do the attack, that they might use israeli bombing technology, since the Iranian factory is underground, and Iran will blame Israel for that

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

it could be possible that if the US is the one to do the attack, that they might use israeli bombing technology, since the Iranian factory is underground, and Iran will blame Israel for that

Huh? All the tech that Israel will use is American. From the specially equipped fighters with extra fuel tanks on their wings, to the bunker busters.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: senseamp


I am sure it's their plan. Provoke Iran, then come crying to uncle Sam for help. We should dissuade them from this notion ahead of time.

They wont cry to anything. Iran has already said they will try and close of the Straight of Hormuz. It is a major shipping lane, and we will consider it an attack against us.

We dont send them equipment and massive amounts of $$$ for no reason.


The Israeli lobby is extremely powerful in the USA. They have people on both sides of the aisle by the balls.

Israel should be careful not to overplay it's hand here.
Americans are not going to sign up for a war with Iran. Not Obama, not after the Iraq mess, not with Iran's ability to create havoc in Iraq.
Netanyahu needs to get with the program, his Cheneyesque attitude is not playing well in today's US.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: senseamp


Israel should be careful not to overplay it's hand here.
Americans are not going to sign up for a war with Iran. Not Obama, not after the Iraq mess, not with Iran's ability to create havoc in Iraq.
Netanyahu needs to get with the program, his Cheneyesque attitude is not playing well in today's US.

The only country Israel needs to worry about is themselves. If they decide that an Iranian nuke is a threat, they will handle it. Just like Iraq. Just like Syria.


I am for stopping any new countries from acquiring such horrible weapons. The US, UK, USSR, and China should have made a treaty in the 60s stating they would stop any new states from acquiring them with all necessary means.


Religious fundamentalist countries are even more of a threat.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

it could be possible that if the US is the one to do the attack, that they might use israeli bombing technology, since the Iranian factory is underground, and Iran will blame Israel for that

Huh? All the tech that Israel will use is American. From the specially equipped fighters with extra fuel tanks on their wings, to the bunker busters.

i worded that a little bad.

while Israel uses American technology, it does not mean that the US wouldnt use Israeli technology.

Israel has developed different types of bombs for different reasons. It could be that if the US is the one to bomb Iran's factories, that they could be using bombs made by israel.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

i worded that a little bad.

while Israel uses American technology, it does not mean that the US wouldnt use Israeli technology.

Israel has developed different types of bombs for different reasons. It could be that if the US is the one to bomb Iran's factories, that they could be using bombs made by israel.

If Bush didnt do it, Obama the dove isnt going to do it.

The only way we are going to be involved is if we are dragged in, and we can make it appear we had no choice.

 

[Freshgeardude]

well, I am using the US as an example. look at my title. I dont want israel to do the attacking

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: senseamp


Israel should be careful not to overplay it's hand here.
Americans are not going to sign up for a war with Iran. Not Obama, not after the Iraq mess, not with Iran's ability to create havoc in Iraq.
Netanyahu needs to get with the program, his Cheneyesque attitude is not playing well in today's US.

The only country Israel needs to worry about is themselves. If they decide that an Iranian nuke is a threat, they will handle it. Just like Iraq. Just like Syria.


I am for stopping any new countries from acquiring such horrible weapons. The US, UK, USSR, and China should have made a treaty in the 60s stating they would stop any new states from acquiring them with all necessary means.


Religious fundamentalist countries are even more of a threat.

Well, if Israel thinks it can handle Iran, they should not expect us to save their butts if things don't fan out.

 

[Lemon law]

Its may be all well and fine for freshgeardude to say, "Iran needs to be taken care of, not by Israel alone or at all imo, but by the world.", but the problem is that Israel is the only country really driving holding that position. Maybe Israel can drag the USA into their camp by using their inside the USA Israeli lobby, but still, Iran is still in IAEA compliance and other than the USA and Israel, the entire rest of the world is not buying the Iranian sanctions arguments being pushed by either Israel or the USA.

And if the rest of the world is not buying that other more effective use international sanctions to force Iranian compliance, there goes any argument that Israel will have any international support in any bombing of Iran. 5% just is not an international consensus.

As it is, the UN has remaining little faith in the US after it has botched both Iraq and Afghanistan. And any semi-UN renewal of GWB's occupation of Iraq would have expired on 12/31/2008 had not GWB agreed to firm and phased withdrawal terms.

A lot of Israeli fan boys are only lying to themselves if they claim much of any world support for their position. As for Israel, it would have been long ago facing crushing UN condemnation if Uncle Sucker quit a blanket veto policy in the security council. As for Israel, its facing a pending UN investigation into Israeli atrocities committed during its recent Gaza incursion. And if the recently released Amnesty international report is any guide, its going to very damning to Israel. For what its worth, it condemned Hamas as well, but any Hamas condemnation still does not elevate Israel behavior in any way.

 

[OCGuy]

^ "The UN has little faith left in the US" :laugh:


Anyone who has faith in the UN has problems.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: senseamp


Israel should be careful not to overplay it's hand here.
Americans are not going to sign up for a war with Iran. Not Obama, not after the Iraq mess, not with Iran's ability to create havoc in Iraq.
Netanyahu needs to get with the program, his Cheneyesque attitude is not playing well in today's US.

The only country Israel needs to worry about is themselves. If they decide that an Iranian nuke is a threat, they will handle it. Just like Iraq. Just like Syria.


I am for stopping any new countries from acquiring such horrible weapons. The US, UK, USSR, and China should have made a treaty in the 60s stating they would stop any new states from acquiring them with all necessary means.


Religious fundamentalist countries are even more of a threat.

Well, if Israel thinks it can handle Iran, they should not expect us to save their butts if things don't fan out.

1) Iran can not attack Israel with ground troops
2) Given the state of IRan's airforce, Israel has little to fear from that regard.
3) The Iranian "Navy" can not get to Israel

That leave ballistic missles.

I would not expect that any Arab nation is actually going to want to tangle with Israel given the track records.
Egypt may have the armies - but they would have a long way to go - they remember previous engagements - quality of their AF is suspect - they have the technology that may be close to Israel, but not the training and/or support needed.
Jordan has nothing that is a threat
Lebanon is trying to rebuild itself - it has avoid conflicts as a government for that past couple of incidents
Syria has shown itself to be a toothless tiger

That leaves the existing headaches - Hamas and Hezbollah.
Both have gotten bloodied badly the last time they tangled with Israel and ran for cover behind the UN skirts. In both skirmishes, Israel has held back; she may not hold back the next time.

The last time, Hamas played word games in passing the blame; the blame game will not work the next time around.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: senseamp


Israel should be careful not to overplay it's hand here.
Americans are not going to sign up for a war with Iran. Not Obama, not after the Iraq mess, not with Iran's ability to create havoc in Iraq.
Netanyahu needs to get with the program, his Cheneyesque attitude is not playing well in today's US.

The only country Israel needs to worry about is themselves. If they decide that an Iranian nuke is a threat, they will handle it. Just like Iraq. Just like Syria.


I am for stopping any new countries from acquiring such horrible weapons. The US, UK, USSR, and China should have made a treaty in the 60s stating they would stop any new states from acquiring them with all necessary means.


Religious fundamentalist countries are even more of a threat.

Well, if Israel thinks it can handle Iran, they should not expect us to save their butts if things don't fan out.

1) Iran can not attack Israel with ground troops
2) Given the state of IRan's airforce, Israel has little to fear from that regard.
3) The Iranian "Navy" can not get to Israel

That leave ballistic missles.

I would not expect that any Arab nation is actually going to want to tangle with Israel given the track records.
Egypt may have the armies - but they would have a long way to go - they remember previous engagements - quality of their AF is suspect - they have the technology that may be close to Israel, but not the training and/or support needed.
Jordan has nothing that is a threat
Lebanon is trying to rebuild itself - it has avoid conflicts as a government for that past couple of incidents
Syria has shown itself to be a toothless tiger

That leaves the existing headaches - Hamas and Hezbollah.
Both have gotten bloodied badly the last time they tangled with Israel and ran for cover behind the UN skirts. In both skirmishes, Israel has held back; she may not hold back the next time.

The last time, Hamas played word games in passing the blame; the blame game will not work the next time around.

Yes, that does leave ballistic missiles.

 

[Lemon law]

Any Iranian bombing by Israel would absolutely justify Iran using ballistic missiles. However it would be a feeble Iranian response unless Iran is willing to use war head consisting of illegal chemical, biological or radiological components because these Iranian ballistic missiles are too expensive to waste carrying just conventional explosives.

But ballistic missiles are hardly the extent of Iranian retaliation, they have the collective punishment option of shutting down the Persian gulf, or the option that Iran has not thus ever used in any big way; namely to flood the zone with the first class weapons that large number of terrorist groups will be happy to use against Israel and any US targets of opportunity in the mid-east. Worse yet, it can force Egyptian and Turkish leaders to reverse previous policies of neutrality regarding Israel because damn near every man on the street Arab and Turk in the mid-east will be 100% in sympathy with Iran, and if their leaders do not follow suit, they will be simply replaced. As for the Saudi monarchy, if they get caught supporting such an Israeli strike on Iran, they are likley to be the first to be overthrown. Hezzbollah has already demonstrated how effective just a few of these Iranian weapons can be against Israeli armor, imagine them in the hands of every rag tag terrorist attacking from every direction on the compass on a scale Israel has never seen. As for terrorists, if they can get their hands on chemical, biological, or radiological weapons, they will have zero reason not to use them on Israel. And we can bet Iran has large numbers of fairly cheap rockets that vastly exceed the present 60-100 mile ranges Israel is used to.

Israeli air power may be almost unbreakable, but air power can only do so much.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: senseamp
There should be no illusion that Israel bombing Iran would be Israel declaring a war on Iran. It's not just an air isolated air strike, any more than Pearl Harbor was just an isolated air strike. If Israel wants to start a war, it should be preparing for a war, not an air strike.

And guess who will be dragged into it to help?

I am sure it's their plan. Provoke Iran, then come crying to uncle Sam for help. We should dissuade them from this notion ahead of time.

You are very nieve if you think Israel needs our help...