Why have AMD APUs failed on the market?

[ElFenix]

Your two statements contradict each other.

no, they don't.

 

[coercitiv]

no, they don't.

Yes they do, Core M and Iris sell because they offer better performance per watt in their respective segments partly due to their big GPUs (especially GT3), so someone, in a significant number cares about GPUs in APUs.

 

[BSim500]

So according to you, those Intel Broadwells will fail too because they dont give 1080p High framerate gameplay ???

No because as explained many, many times before, people aren't buying Intel chips on a priority of "iGPU performance must be priority for everyone, everywhere because AtenRa says so". Just like people don't buy AMD chips on the back of single-threaded performance or FX chips on low power consumption, you seem remarkably incapable of grasping that different CPU's of different brands have different metrics for which different people have different purchasing priorities to yours... This the "mental hurdle" you are repeatedly struggling to get over - you're "demanding" - almost stamping your feet - that all of Intel's chips "must" be sold like an A8-7600. They aren't, and people aren't buying them as such. And almost everyone else understands that except you.

If your vision is to bring in more money to AMD, it's completely back to front by endlessly trying to squeeze everyone into the "bottom rung" price bracket and least profitable lowest-margin chips of the same range that's experienced the most drastic price-cuts because they weren't selling very well!

So what makes those better than AMD Carrizo for Desktop/Mobile.

Aside from the fact most sane people would wait until both chips have been released to make a more informed comparison (instead of spam-posting the same two images over & over, day after day), probably the usual significantly faster per-core performance / IPC / battery life, benchamrks, etc. Which like it or not is what a lot of people still buy CPU's on... Last time I checked Broadwell-K quad-core is down to 65w (down from 84w), so a 20% power consumption reduction is going to positively impact battery life. Any idiot can repost die shots, but personally I'm not going to judge either Carrizo, Broadwell or Skylake's performance until I actually see them tested and in action.

 

[AtenRa]

that all of Intel's chips "must" be sold like an A8-7600. They aren't, and people aren't buying them as such. And almost everyone else understands that except you.

So why people buy overgrown iGPU Intel CPUs ??

If your vision is to bring in more money to AMD, it's completely back to front by endlessly trying to squeeze everyone into the "bottom rung" price bracket and least profitable lowest-margin chips of the same range that's experienced the most drastic price-cuts because they weren't selling very well!

10-15W TDP Intel CPUs are very profitable and yet they squeeze everyone into the bottom rung but nobody complains for those CPUs.

probably the usual significantly faster per-core performance / IPC / battery life, benchamrks, etc. Which like it or not is what a lot of people still buy CPU's on... Last time I checked Broadwell-K quad-core is down to 65w (down from 84w), so a 20% power consumption reduction is going to positively impact battery life. Any idiot can repost die shots, but personally I'm not going to judge either Carrizo, Broadwell or Skylake's performance until I actually see them tested and in action.

Are you talking about that battery life ???

Battery runtime

Dell Latitude E5550 Core i5 5300U Broadwell
Idle (without WLAN, min brightness) = 12h 01min
WiFi Surfing = 6h 21min
Big Buck Bunny H.264 1080p = 6h 27min
Load (maximum brightness) = 1h 06min


Dell Latitude E5550 Core i5 4310U Haswell
Idle (without WLAN, min brightness) = 8h 43min
WiFi Surfing = 6h 05min
Big Buck Bunny H.264 1080p = 6h 22min
Load (maximum brightness) = 1h 18min

 

[ElFenix]

Yes they do, Core M and Iris sell because they offer better performance per watt in their respective segments partly due to their big GPUs (especially GT3), so someone, in a significant number cares about GPUs in APUs.

right, but not to the level of atenra's GPU first mantra. the cpu must be good be good before we consider the graphics part, and right now, amd's cpus (mostly) aren't.

though i do get the 'good enough' aspect of cpu performance. heck, atom based processors are now in desktop type form factors because the performance is 'good enough.' amd's problem is that at nearly every power-level, its products are second in a two-horse race.

 

[AtenRa]

amd's problem is that at nearly every power-level, its products are second in a two-horse race.

You mean they are behind in CPU perf/watt, not in iGPU perf/watt.

edit: Not to mention that CPU performance is almost equal on average or 5-10% lower than Intel(A10 Kaveri vs Core i3), when iGPU performance is most of the time 50% or higher than Intel.

 

[mrmt]

though i do get the 'good enough' aspect of cpu performance. heck, atom based processors are now in desktop type form factors because the performance is 'good enough.' amd's problem is that at nearly every power-level, its products are second in a two-horse race.

CPU performance is what defines the value bracket of a given processor, the GPU is just a bit of added value inside the bracket.

 

[AtenRa]

CPU performance is what defines the value bracket of a given processor, the GPU is just a bit of added value inside the bracket.

Lets say that is the case,

What Intel CPU has the CPU performance of the A8-7600 at $90 ??? none

Now add the iGPU added value on top of that perf/price and the A8-7600 should had been able to sell millions and millions of units.

Heh it didnt, the big question is why ?? I can tell you its not the lack of CPU perf or the big iGPU though.

 

[Phynaz]

You mean they are behind in CPU perf/watt, not in iGPU perf/watt.

Yes. The CPU is what runs x86 software, not the GPU.

You and ABWX need to understand this. This is why AMD APU's have failed. Because they are CPU's first, and not very good ones.

 

[monstercameron]

Lets say that is the case,

What Intel CPU has the CPU performance of the A8-7600 at $90 ??? none

Now add the iGPU added value on top of that perf/price and the A8-7600 should had been able to sell millions and millions of units.

Heh it didnt, the big question is why ?? I can tell you its not the lack of CPU perf or the big iGPU though.

It's allegedly the "cost structure" because it is a relatively big die. Apparently Intel has to price match or under cut amd to get product wins.

 

[AtenRa]

Because they are CPU's first, and not very good ones.

CPU performance between the A10-7700K and Core i3 Haswell(same price) is almost the same. I will just give the win to Core i3 for its higher single thread performance in order to please the crowd but people buying those CPUs will not understand the difference.

So what next ??

 

[AtenRa]

It's allegedly the "cost structure" because it is a relatively big die. Apparently Intel has to price match or under cut amd to get product wins.

Im not convinced of this, AMD and Intel dont use the same fabs, dont use the same process, they dont have the same internal structure and operation costs etc etc.
AMD APUs may be large dies but that doesnt mean that they cannot be price competitive. For example Intel would never sell a Core i3 at Pentium price. And yet AMD sells a Single Module Dual Core APU (A6-7400K) that actually is the same die as the A10-7850K at ridiculously low prices.

 

[cbn]

Also, if Pentium CPU is adequate for internet and office so does the APUs. The CPU performance of the A8-7600 is more than enough for those jobs and you also get an added faster iGPU with it.

For example,

A8-7600 = $90

Intel Pentium G3420 (Dual Core) = $63

What dGPU will you get to have the same or higher performance than the A8-7600 at $90 ??? Ill save you from searching, NONE.

I would probably pair a celeron and dGPU to that A8-7600 (for a gaming comparison). Then I would compare costs of single 4GB, 2 x4GB, and fast 2 x 4GB kits.

P.S. On the AMD video cards, there is a ton of price compression on the R7 250X, R7 250 and R7 240 to the point where anything less than R7 250X is probably not worth the the lower price (unless someone needs a low profile card*.)

*If a person needs to go low profile Nvidia appeared to be doing much better than AMD based on the results I found in the now dormant entry level video card hot deals thread --> http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2403091&highlight=

 

[BSim500]

So why people buy overgrown iGPU Intel CPUs

As many others have said - people buy Intel chips FOR strong CPU core performance (still a function of combined single & multi thread performance, not purely the latter) with iGPU as a bonus - they aren't buying them FOR iGPU to try and make up value for weak IPC, or because they crave "compute" on slow iGPU's (or for the ultra-niche of wanting to play heavy games but having an irrational fear of dGPU's that give the best perf/$ they simultaneously claim to seek but artificially exclude...)

10-15W TDP Intel CPUs are very profitable and yet they squeeze everyone into the bottom rung but nobody complains for those CPUs.

There's quite a bit of profit difference in 102mm2 vs 245mm2 die sizes. And Bay Trail vs Kaveri is apples and oranges. Intel also sell lots of high-end chips, far more than FX-9590's at same prices, so their overall revenue isn't "weighted" towards the bottom end of the market. The way some people act however, is "AMD should bargain basement everything". If AMD had stronger cores and a quad AMD actually = a quad Intel core for core, clock for clock and not merely scraped parity with i3 on a good day, we wouldn't be having this conversation, the Kaveri's wouldn't have had their prices slashed and the A10-7850K would still be nearer $180. It really is the performance of the CPU cores that Kaveri prices were slashed for.

Are you talking about that battery life ???

Not sure what you think you're seeing, but considering notebooks spend most time in idle state I think a 12hr battery life is quite an improvement on 8.75hrs given a +11% boost in PC Mark scores on same battery size. Standby (suspend) also reduced from 3.7w to 0.2w.

Conclusion : "Overall, the Latitude delivers good battery runtimes and performs slightly better than its Haswell sister model despite better performance and same battery capacity."

So it simultaneously runs faster and lasts longer and can go days in standby. Some "failure"...

 

[ElFenix]

oh i didn't see this:

A8-7600 = $90

Intel Pentium G3420 (Dual Core) = $63

What dGPU will you get to have the same or higher performance than the A8-7600 at $90 ??? Ill save you from searching, NONE.

for an OEM box selling somewhere south of $400, that $27 is your profit. it doesn't matter that there's no discrete gpu that you as an OEM could pair with the pentium to get the A8-7600 performance, because you're not putting one in there.

 

[cbn]

AMD APUs may be large dies but that doesnt mean that they cannot be price competitive.

The main question I have is "Can AMD do something better with their big core APU design compared to the current situation?"

If so, how much better?

Personally I think 1.) the large iGPUs on desktop need to go, 2.) future big core desktop APUs should have higher cpu performance than the current quad core versions (for more than one reason), 3.) future big core desktop APUs should work efficiently with one DDR4 3200 stick 4.) future big core desktop APUs should have a smaller die size

 

[Shivansps]

Wut? Major OEM machines are nearly all SFF now.



People buying by the 100s or 1000s aren't posting reviews on newegg.

They have been selling SFFs since the C2D days and before, its nothing new and nothing BIG.

The strange thing there is way more reviews on the regular desktop cases than in SFF and AIOs...
In any event, a SFF is still a pc that can be upgraded, builded, change parts, etc. So they really does not change anything.

 

[Phynaz]

CPU performance between the A10-7700K and Core i3 Haswell(same price) is almost the same. I will just give the win to Core i3 for its higher single thread performance in order to please the crowd but people buying those CPUs will not understand the difference.

So what next ??

There is no "what next". AMD CPUs aren't all that good. That's all there is to it.

 

[Abwx]

Yes. The CPU is what runs x86 software, not the GPU.

You and ABWX need to understand this. This is why AMD APU's have failed. Because they are CPU's first, and not very good ones.

Intel s mobile CPUs are not that good, they perform well thanks to draining only 100% more power than officaly specced, check the reviews above, particularlty the one of the "15W" Broadwell, a hint, it drain about 28W at the SoC level...

 

[cbn]

I wish we had a realistic plan from AMD that results in better big core APUs at lower prices.

Cost adding large iGPUs which are low clocked coupled to dual channel RAM is not a way to fix this problem at either the DIY or OEM desktop level. In fact, this large iGPU approach on desktop only makes AMD's value proposition even worse.

But like I mentioned before, the large iGPU is only part of the problem. They need to help out CPU part of APU as well, without worsening single thread.

P.S. Thinking ahead I am also very concerned about how various quad core Bristol Ridge SKUs would compare to either a Skylake Celeron or Pentium in gaming cpu performance. (AMD needs something relatively affordable that can beat Skylake Celeron/Pentium, at least in certain gaming niches)

 

[VirtualLarry]

Intel s mobile CPUs are not that good, they perform well thanks to draining only 100% more power than officaly specced, check the reviews above, particularlty the one of the "15W" Broadwell, a hint, it drain about 28W at the SoC level...

And yet, they have better performance, and better battery life than Haswell. Such a "failure"...

 

[cbn]

oh i didn't see this:

A8-7600 = $90

Intel Pentium G3420 (Dual Core) = $63

What dGPU will you get to have the same or higher performance than the A8-7600 at $90 ??? Ill save you from searching, NONE.

for an OEM box selling somewhere south of $400, that $27 is your profit. it doesn't matter that there's no discrete gpu that you as an OEM could pair with the pentium to get the A8-7600 performance, because you're not putting one in there.

For that same reason the OEM would not put in a dGPU, I think they would also prefer not to pay extra for the larger size iGPU (on the APU) as well as dual channel RAM needed to support it.

 

[Abwx]

And yet, they have better performance, and better battery life than Haswell. Such a "failure"...

You didnt read well the numbers, it has better battery life assuming you dont use it at all, not even for browsing purposes, otherwise it has lower battery life than previous gen the more you load it.

AMD should be more competitive on the desktop side once Intel release their next chips, see no other reason why the Kaveri refresh are lower clocked overall...

 

[beginner99]

snipped

OK. You coming from Greece I understand you have to save every penny you get. I tend to forget that for certain areas even in the western world electronics aren't really considered to be cheap. For me, spending $100 more over an APU for like double to triple the FPS is a no-brainer. I rather buy 1-3 games less but have better experience in the ones I prefer most.

An R9 270x is about $120 and if you compare that with the Radeon 6750 that already is way, way faster than all the APUs (see http://anandtech.com/show/7677/amd-kaveri-review-a8-7600-a10-7850k/12) it's just not comparable. The 6750 already has double the FPS compared to the APU and an R9270x is again way, way faster than that 6750. In fact the bottle-neck will often now be with the Athlon CPU.

 

[coercitiv]

OK. You coming from Greece I understand you have to save every penny you get. I tend to forget that for certain areas even in the western world electronics aren't really considered to be cheap.

Your socio-economic expertise astounds.