Why has healthcare suddenly become a problem?

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Health care didn't just suddenly arrive on the scene; it was an issue that was built into the Constitution because of the fundamental Christian principles that went into the genetic makeup of our nation. Because the founding fathers were deeply influenced my Christian morality they built into the Constitution the notion of Jesus Given Rights, Christian charity and concern for the poor, and equality. Naturally the devil is at work to prevent us from living up to those ideals, but they are always in our conscientiousness waiting to surface when the opportunity presents, as it just did, when we elected an ersatz Messiah named after the blessings that fall from heaven, the holy Baraka. Of course the Jesus hating republicans will try to crucify health care as they do all real good.

1) please tell me where healthcare is built into the constitution

2) christian principles built into the genetic makeup of our country? ideals, perhaps, that inspired the founding fathers... but infusing religion into human genes is a new thing AFAIK. better patent that ASAP, moonbeam.

3) the Declaration speak of certain, inalienable rights bestowed upon the people by their Creator, but the does not say "Jesus Christ, the Son of God." think more general than specific. they speak of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. not guaranteed happiness. not guaranteed wealth. the pursuit.

i hope you are just trolling, moonbeam...

 

[Moonbeam]

F: 1) please tell me where healthcare is built into the constitution

M: I won't fall for that trap. If I told you, you would just claim that other systems share those same beliefs.

F: 2) Christian principles built into the genetic makeup of our country? ideals, perhaps, that inspired the founding fathers... but infusing religion into human genes is a new thing AFAIK. better patent that ASAP, moonbeam.

M: I would but Fear No Evil got the patent first.

F: 3) the Declaration speak of certain, inalienable rights bestowed upon the people by their Creator, but the does not say "Jesus Christ, the Son of God." think more general than specific. they speak of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. not guaranteed happiness. not guaranteed wealth. the pursuit.

i hope you are just trolling, moonbeam...

M: Yeah, but for a Christian nation it's all the same. It's guaranteed that if you seek you will find.

And I prefer not to call this trolling but illustrating by example.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: OrByte
silly thread.

OK since there is no "crisis" lets just not reform one of the worst health systems in the world.

shrug

gotcha...

Really.. we have one of the WORST healthcare systems in the world? Why do so many come here for world class treatment then? Our Doctors are the least informed, do nothing but hack jobs on patients, all while stealing every last penny from the patient right?

As I stated, if we have one of the WORST systems in the WORLD.. WHY would democrats not make an issue of it for the past 8 years? Is it because GWB would have gotten credit? I mean, if its truly the WORST, they should have at least brought it up as an issue a few times? Or was it more important to investigate the firing of U.S. attorneys than to protect the American people from ONE OF WORST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN WORLD?

I think you guys a proving to me this is nothing but politics as usual from the democrats.

I'm still not understanding how you are able to ignore Democratic attempts to reform the health care system or implement universal health care going back five decades.

Our health care system isn't the worst in the world, in fact it's ranked #37 if I'm not mistaken. Sure that's behind some third world countries, but it's hardly the worst. You could make the argument that it is the least efficient system in the world however.

If we were truly 37th.. would we have ANYBODY coming to the U.S. for treatment? Wouldn't masses of Americans be leaving the country for treatments? I'd like to know how they calculated 37th.. I'm sure its including things that could easily be fixed without socializing our system.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

If we were truly 37th.. would we have ANYBODY coming to the U.S. for treatment? Wouldn't masses of Americans be leaving the country for treatments? I'd like to know how they calculated 37th.. I'm sure its including things that could easily be fixed without socializing our system.

Because it measures the effectiveness of the system as a whole, not high end treatments. The US does very well with high end medical care, which is a large reason why people come here. We do quite poorly on much of the rest of it, hence why we're #37.

I'm not sure why it is so hard for you to admit or understand that our system simply isn't very good.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Jakeisbest

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Engineer
Health care reform has been attempted for over 100 years and has been beaten by FEAR each and every time. There was no reason to try to reform it as long as Bush (or any GOP power for that matter) was in office to face a certain VETO. History shows that when in doubt, whip the fear out (and so far, it has worked). This is the best chance in nearly 100 years to get it passed, so sure, they are going to try to nail it to the board and make it stick...any way they can.

So now we've gone from DECADES, to over a CENTURY of attempted reform... (All Democratic I am sure.. ) Yet this needed to be passed in a couple weeks of it being introduced?

The funny thing about legislation like this is that if it's not passed quickly (and decisively for that matter, it "usually" won't make it at all. History has taught us that on both sides (See SS reform a few years ago).

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Should we be ramming bills through that impact 1/6th of the economy (Whatever that # is) and could make life of death healthcare decisions for people in a matter of weeks?

All the serious responses in this thread (There have only been a few) seem to so far point to their not really being a crisis, but the crisis being more about getting this passed before support drops for it. Just as fear shouldn't be used to prevent a bill from passing, it shouldn't be used to PASS a bill either. If we can't even get a majority of democrats to agree that this bill is good.. Maybe it needs some rethinking?

One of Obama's big campaign pledges was to pass health care reform during this first term in office.

Also, I think you are confusing the proverbial "now" with, the sit down and vote today "now".

Most of the conservatives won't even talk about health care reform. Instead of talking through the details of the bill they are talking about death panels, care for illegal immigrants, and a slue of other topics which have little or nothing to do with the legislation which is being proposed.

Obama is trying to say that he won't let this drop, this bill is not going to go away. He wants the to stop with misinformation and start talking details.

Then how do you explain the 30+ GOP sponsored health care bills in the House? Namely H.R. 77; H.R. 109; H.R. 198; H.R. 270; H.R. 321; H.R. 464; H.R. 502; H.R. 544; H.R. 917; H.R. 1086; H.R. 1118; H.R. 1441; H.R. 1458; H.R. 1468; H.R. 1658; H.R. 1891; H.R. 2520; H.R. 2607; H.R. 2692; H.R. 2784; H.R. 2785; H.R. 2786; H.R. 2787; H.R. 3141; H.R. 3217; H.R. 3218; H.R. 3356; H.R. 3372; H.R. 3400; H.R. 3438; H.R. 3454; and H.R. 3478.

That they are promoting bills that have no chance of passage while not working to constructively alter the bills that DO have a chance of passage.

It's a PR ploy.

Oh OK. Thanks.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Then how do you explain the 30+ GOP sponsored health care bills in the House? Namely H.R. 77; H.R. 109; H.R. 198; H.R. 270; H.R. 321; H.R. 464; H.R. 502; H.R. 544; H.R. 917; H.R. 1086; H.R. 1118; H.R. 1441; H.R. 1458; H.R. 1468; H.R. 1658; H.R. 1891; H.R. 2520; H.R. 2607; H.R. 2692; H.R. 2784; H.R. 2785; H.R. 2786; H.R. 2787; H.R. 3141; H.R. 3217; H.R. 3218; H.R. 3356; H.R. 3372; H.R. 3400; H.R. 3438; H.R. 3454; and H.R. 3478.

What exactly are the details of those bills? I'd like to know, but the fact is it's probably more of the same. I highly doubt there's a single bill in that list that actually addresses a fundamental problem of our health care system.

How about looking them up and find out for yourself?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Jakeisbest

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Jakeisbest

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Engineer
Health care reform has been attempted for over 100 years and has been beaten by FEAR each and every time. There was no reason to try to reform it as long as Bush (or any GOP power for that matter) was in office to face a certain VETO. History shows that when in doubt, whip the fear out (and so far, it has worked). This is the best chance in nearly 100 years to get it passed, so sure, they are going to try to nail it to the board and make it stick...any way they can.

So now we've gone from DECADES, to over a CENTURY of attempted reform... (All Democratic I am sure.. ) Yet this needed to be passed in a couple weeks of it being introduced?

The funny thing about legislation like this is that if it's not passed quickly (and decisively for that matter, it "usually" won't make it at all. History has taught us that on both sides (See SS reform a few years ago).

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Should we be ramming bills through that impact 1/6th of the economy (Whatever that # is) and could make life of death healthcare decisions for people in a matter of weeks?

All the serious responses in this thread (There have only been a few) seem to so far point to their not really being a crisis, but the crisis being more about getting this passed before support drops for it. Just as fear shouldn't be used to prevent a bill from passing, it shouldn't be used to PASS a bill either. If we can't even get a majority of democrats to agree that this bill is good.. Maybe it needs some rethinking?

One of Obama's big campaign pledges was to pass health care reform during this first term in office.

Also, I think you are confusing the proverbial "now" with, the sit down and vote today "now".

Most of the conservatives won't even talk about health care reform. Instead of talking through the details of the bill they are talking about death panels, care for illegal immigrants, and a slue of other topics which have little or nothing to do with the legislation which is being proposed.

Obama is trying to say that he won't let this drop, this bill is not going to go away. He wants the to stop with misinformation and start talking details.

Then how do you explain the 30+ GOP sponsored health care bills in the House? Namely H.R. 77; H.R. 109; H.R. 198; H.R. 270; H.R. 321; H.R. 464; H.R. 502; H.R. 544; H.R. 917; H.R. 1086; H.R. 1118; H.R. 1441; H.R. 1458; H.R. 1468; H.R. 1658; H.R. 1891; H.R. 2520; H.R. 2607; H.R. 2692; H.R. 2784; H.R. 2785; H.R. 2786; H.R. 2787; H.R. 3141; H.R. 3217; H.R. 3218; H.R. 3356; H.R. 3372; H.R. 3400; H.R. 3438; H.R. 3454; and H.R. 3478.

Many of these contain great ideas: Allow insurance to be sold across state lines, setup a commission who will create common definitions for procedures to reduce medical billing procedures.

I don't hear any of these being pushed by the GOP.

Because the Democrats have the stage. GOP doesnt really have a voice. But theyre trying at least, and offering suggestions and alternatives.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

That they are promoting bills that have no chance of passage while not working to constructively alter the bills that DO have a chance of passage.

It's a PR ploy.

Oh OK. Thanks.

You didn't really think they were something else, did you? Every minority party does this same trick.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

That they are promoting bills that have no chance of passage while not working to constructively alter the bills that DO have a chance of passage.

It's a PR ploy.

Oh OK. Thanks.

You didn't really think they were something else, did you? Every minority party does this same trick.

Whatever you say. We'll agree to disagree.

I guess the Democrats havent really been trying over...what was it...5 decades? It was all a PR ploy.

Got it.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

That they are promoting bills that have no chance of passage while not working to constructively alter the bills that DO have a chance of passage.

It's a PR ploy.

Oh OK. Thanks.

You didn't really think they were something else, did you? Every minority party does this same trick.

Whatever you say. We'll agree to disagree.

I guess the Democrats havent really been trying over...what was it...5 decades? It was all a PR ploy.

Got it.

Your arguments don't make any sense. The Republicans are stonewalling on the legislation actually under consideration in the House/Senate, and then providing their own bills that they know won't pass. That's called giving yourself political cover, and it's what minority parties always do. If you think the Republicans are acting in good faith on this, you're awfully naive.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: OrByte
silly thread.

OK since there is no "crisis" lets just not reform one of the worst health systems in the world.

shrug

gotcha...

Really.. we have one of the WORST healthcare systems in the world? Why do so many come here for world class treatment then? Our Doctors are the least informed, do nothing but hack jobs on patients, all while stealing every last penny from the patient right?

As I stated, if we have one of the WORST systems in the WORLD.. WHY would democrats not make an issue of it for the past 8 years? Is it because GWB would have gotten credit? I mean, if its truly the WORST, they should have at least brought it up as an issue a few times? Or was it more important to investigate the firing of U.S. attorneys than to protect the American people from ONE OF WORST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN WORLD?

I think you guys a proving to me this is nothing but politics as usual from the democrats.

I said health system...notice I didnt say healthcare.

dummy

 

[0marTheZealot]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: OrByte
silly thread.

OK since there is no "crisis" lets just not reform one of the worst health systems in the world.

shrug

gotcha...

Really.. we have one of the WORST healthcare systems in the world? Why do so many come here for world class treatment then? Our Doctors are the least informed, do nothing but hack jobs on patients, all while stealing every last penny from the patient right?

As I stated, if we have one of the WORST systems in the WORLD.. WHY would democrats not make an issue of it for the past 8 years? Is it because GWB would have gotten credit? I mean, if its truly the WORST, they should have at least brought it up as an issue a few times? Or was it more important to investigate the firing of U.S. attorneys than to protect the American people from ONE OF WORST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN WORLD?

I think you guys a proving to me this is nothing but politics as usual from the democrats.

I'm still not understanding how you are able to ignore Democratic attempts to reform the health care system or implement universal health care going back five decades.

Our health care system isn't the worst in the world, in fact it's ranked #37 if I'm not mistaken. Sure that's behind some third world countries, but it's hardly the worst. You could make the argument that it is the least efficient system in the world however.

If we were truly 37th.. would we have ANYBODY coming to the U.S. for treatment? Wouldn't masses of Americans be leaving the country for treatments? I'd like to know how they calculated 37th.. I'm sure its including things that could easily be fixed without socializing our system.

Complete, logic fail.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: OrByte
silly thread.

OK since there is no "crisis" lets just not reform one of the worst health systems in the world.

shrug

gotcha...

Really.. we have one of the WORST healthcare systems in the world? Why do so many come here for world class treatment then? Our Doctors are the least informed, do nothing but hack jobs on patients, all while stealing every last penny from the patient right?

As I stated, if we have one of the WORST systems in the WORLD.. WHY would democrats not make an issue of it for the past 8 years? Is it because GWB would have gotten credit? I mean, if its truly the WORST, they should have at least brought it up as an issue a few times? Or was it more important to investigate the firing of U.S. attorneys than to protect the American people from ONE OF WORST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN WORLD?

I think you guys a proving to me this is nothing but politics as usual from the democrats.

I said health system...notice I didnt say healthcare.

dummy

So, we have great HEALTHCARE, but the system is bad? By 'system' do you mean insurance? Could you define the difference for me so I understand what you are referring to? Because I am being told we are 37th in the world in Healthcare.

Thanks for the insult as well. I have been very polite to everyone in this thread and have been called many names.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: OrByte
silly thread.

OK since there is no "crisis" lets just not reform one of the worst health systems in the world.

shrug

gotcha...

Really.. we have one of the WORST healthcare systems in the world? Why do so many come here for world class treatment then? Our Doctors are the least informed, do nothing but hack jobs on patients, all while stealing every last penny from the patient right?

As I stated, if we have one of the WORST systems in the WORLD.. WHY would democrats not make an issue of it for the past 8 years? Is it because GWB would have gotten credit? I mean, if its truly the WORST, they should have at least brought it up as an issue a few times? Or was it more important to investigate the firing of U.S. attorneys than to protect the American people from ONE OF WORST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN WORLD?

I think you guys a proving to me this is nothing but politics as usual from the democrats.

I'm still not understanding how you are able to ignore Democratic attempts to reform the health care system or implement universal health care going back five decades.

Our health care system isn't the worst in the world, in fact it's ranked #37 if I'm not mistaken. Sure that's behind some third world countries, but it's hardly the worst. You could make the argument that it is the least efficient system in the world however.

If we were truly 37th.. would we have ANYBODY coming to the U.S. for treatment? Wouldn't masses of Americans be leaving the country for treatments? I'd like to know how they calculated 37th.. I'm sure its including things that could easily be fixed without socializing our system.

Complete, logic fail.

That comma is completely confusing me. Are you saying I am having a COMPLETE LOGIC FAIL (Which still doesn't make much sense) - Or my thought is COMPLETE, but with a LOGIC FAIL?

Could you throw a personal insult in there its really not the same without it.

 

[First]

Welcome to 1993.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: OrByte
silly thread.

OK since there is no "crisis" lets just not reform one of the worst health systems in the world.

shrug

gotcha...

Really.. we have one of the WORST healthcare systems in the world? Why do so many come here for world class treatment then? Our Doctors are the least informed, do nothing but hack jobs on patients, all while stealing every last penny from the patient right?

As I stated, if we have one of the WORST systems in the WORLD.. WHY would democrats not make an issue of it for the past 8 years? Is it because GWB would have gotten credit? I mean, if its truly the WORST, they should have at least brought it up as an issue a few times? Or was it more important to investigate the firing of U.S. attorneys than to protect the American people from ONE OF WORST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN WORLD?

I think you guys a proving to me this is nothing but politics as usual from the democrats.

I said health system...notice I didnt say healthcare.

dummy

So, we have great HEALTHCARE, but the system is bad? By 'system' do you mean insurance? Could you define the difference for me so I understand what you are referring to? Because I am being told we are 37th in the world in Healthcare.

Thanks for the insult as well. I have been very polite to everyone in this thread and have been called many names.

you are welcome for the insult.

And no....I don't care to define what it is I am referring to.

I don't see the point....as I said earlier this is a silly thread..you are welcome to believe that there is no need for reform...and that the rising costs of our nations health system presents no urgent issues for lower/middle income families across the country.

you are welcome to your opinion. You are welcome to believe that the ENTIRE country is not in need of reform and that the Democrats are simply wasting everyone's time for political gain....

whatEVERRRR

 

[Pliablemoose]

FNE, the health care system has been circling the drain for decades...

If you really want to understand what's going on with health care, tell me where you live, I'll find you the county hospital in the area, and you have to go spend a Friday night in the ER waiting room, or if you're brave, tell them you have stomach pain and check in as a patient.

Report back afterwords. Then we'll talk.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: OrByte
silly thread.

OK since there is no "crisis" lets just not reform one of the worst health systems in the world.

shrug

gotcha...

Really.. we have one of the WORST healthcare systems in the world? Why do so many come here for world class treatment then? Our Doctors are the least informed, do nothing but hack jobs on patients, all while stealing every last penny from the patient right?

As I stated, if we have one of the WORST systems in the WORLD.. WHY would democrats not make an issue of it for the past 8 years? Is it because GWB would have gotten credit? I mean, if its truly the WORST, they should have at least brought it up as an issue a few times? Or was it more important to investigate the firing of U.S. attorneys than to protect the American people from ONE OF WORST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN WORLD?

I think you guys a proving to me this is nothing but politics as usual from the democrats.

I said health system...notice I didnt say healthcare.

dummy

So, we have great HEALTHCARE, but the system is bad? By 'system' do you mean insurance? Could you define the difference for me so I understand what you are referring to? Because I am being told we are 37th in the world in Healthcare.

Thanks for the insult as well. I have been very polite to everyone in this thread and have been called many names.

you are welcome for the insult.

And no....I don't care to define what it is I am referring to.

I don't see the point....as I said earlier this is a silly thread..you are welcome to believe that there is no need for reform...and that the rising costs of our nations health system presents no urgent issues for lower/middle income families across the country.

you are welcome to your opinion. You are welcome to believe that the ENTIRE country is not in need of reform and that the Democrats are simply wasting everyone's time for political gain....

whatEVERRRR

Well thanks for coming in, insulting, making a confusing comment with no explanation.. then bailing!

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: First
Welcome to 1993.

This is exactly why so many are afraid right now who support reform. Unless something is passed before the House of Representatives begin campaigning in earnest, it may be another decade or more before the Dems can muster the political will to tackle this issue again. We can't just keep postponing what needs to be done.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: First
Welcome to 1993.

This is exactly why so many are afraid right now who support reform. Unless something is passed before the House of Representatives begin campaigning in earnest, it may be another decade or more before the Dems can muster the political will to tackle this issue again. We can't just keep postponing what needs to be done.

What does political will have to do with anything? They have 60 votes, and a large majority in congress. They can pass it TOMORROW. But they can't even get their own party to agree to it. Surely if this is THAT important of an issue, THAT big of a crisis.. they could manage to get 60 votes?

And why can't Obama. The greatest speaker to ever live on this planet EVER - convince the American people to support this?

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
What does political will have to do with anything? They have 60 votes, and a large majority in congress. They can pass it TOMORROW. But they can't even get their own party to agree to it. Surely if this is THAT important of an issue, THAT big of a crisis.. they could manage to get 60 votes?

And why can't Obama. The greatest speaker to ever live on this planet EVER - convince the American people to support this?

Takes tremendous energy and effort to line up the entire party behind a radical far left agenda that goes beyond reform. The bill isn't 1,000+ pages for nothing. They could pass easier to digest pieces of it, but that would mean the radical segments would never see the light of day.

They need the entire package held hostage. To pass it all, or pass none of it.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Well thanks for coming in, insulting, making a confusing comment with no explanation.. then bailing!

no prob!

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Fucking idiot.

Clear enough for you?

 

[Fear No Evil]

Hey! Thats appropriate! Thanks!

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

That they are promoting bills that have no chance of passage while not working to constructively alter the bills that DO have a chance of passage.

It's a PR ploy.

Oh OK. Thanks.

You didn't really think they were something else, did you? Every minority party does this same trick.

Whatever you say. We'll agree to disagree.

I guess the Democrats havent really been trying over...what was it...5 decades? It was all a PR ploy.

Got it.

Your arguments don't make any sense. The Republicans are stonewalling on the legislation actually under consideration in the House/Senate, and then providing their own bills that they know won't pass. That's called giving yourself political cover, and it's what minority parties always do. If you think the Republicans are acting in good faith on this, you're awfully naive.

OK. Then, I guess the Democrats havent really been trying over...what was it...5 decades? It was all a PR ploy.

Fair enough.

I know you disagree with the GOP, and I somewhat disagree with the Democrats; however, to insinuate a party and those in it truly dont want whats best for the people is pretty callous. That would simply have to be a generalization made across both aisles. Period. As much as I disagree with Obama on some issues, I think deep down he really does want the United States to be a better place. Im not a conspiracy theorist, I dont think there are meetings behind closed doors on how to fuck the other guy and make a huge power grab, and although I understand many (if not most) members of congress are bought in some way or another, at the end of the day I believe they really do want to change things.

Im sorry you dont feel that way. The GOP is trying, and offering different alternatives to solve the same problem. Te fact that you dont see that, and dismiss it just because the GOP wrote the bills, truly shows your partisan stance.

Fair enough.