Ha, ha (was wondering if someone would pick it up).
I refer to all Apple products as MACs (Macintoshes), which shows my age. :/
Don't worry I do have a MAC address.
Ha, ha (was wondering if someone would pick it up).
I refer to all Apple products as MACs (Macintoshes), which shows my age. :/
Don't worry I do have a MAC address.
Originally posted by: Terumo
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Apache holds most of the webserver market, but IIS has the bad rap. Explain, please.
Microsoft product. Prodigy of a king, and thus attacked. And Apache isn't without problems itself.
Mostly the GENIUNE complaints were resolved now in Windows Server 2003. Matter of fact, even *nix admins are grudgingly admitting it can do some things better -- and faster.
Personally if I could get some netware to work with WS2003, I'd switch my server to it, considering the reports I get of how well it can speed a forum.
Apache has plenty of problems, but most of the exploits are still for IIS despite Apache's market dominance. It's a perfect example of why the "there's more of it out there so of course it's less secure" argument sucks.
GUIs aren't important for servers, and would just get in the way. And you'd have to use another program to connect to a Windows server anyhow. Good luck doing that well over a 28.8kb connection.
I haven't heard a *nix admin say anything good about IIS. I haven't seen any benchmarks comparing IIS and Apache either, but I'd be interested. Link?
Originally posted by: Terumo
Ha, ha (was wondering if someone would pick it up).
I refer to all Apple products as MACs (Macintoshes), which shows my age. :/
Don't worry I do have a MAC address.
Mac = Macintosh.
They're wonderful. :heart:
$dipshit++
Eintstein, just because a page is 100% compliant and looks different in IE, doesn't mean that firefox is broken. That centering box issue has been beat to death. Welcome to 3 years ago.
Eintstein, just because a page is 100% compliant and looks different in IE, doesn't mean that firefox is broken. That centering box issue has been beat to death. Welcome to 3 years ago.
It's because it's a MS product it's attacked. Just like IBM and it's software was attacked despite the clones which soon outpaced it's dominance.
Actually they're so important now that most web host software has a GUI (accept maybe Netadmin). CPanel/Hsphere/Hemi, etc.. Most common tasks are done through it now (except for recompiling a kernel and direct system file changes). It's because it's a lot easier to get a lot of work done visually. One typo on a command line and it could wipe out the OS -- and even SysAdmins make that booboo.
Eventually the GUI will come to the last domain of the old *nixers.
I know the kicking and screaming will be ugly, but hey, done that when switching from DOS to Windows too. And you'd have to use another program to connect to a Windows server anyhow. Good luck doing that well over a 28.8kb connection.
Hemi takes away all that in an interface that's quite nice.
If a server operator is still connecting to the internet on a 28.8 dialup, he really shouldn't be maintaining a dual Xeon server....lololol God, downloading backups would be a royal PAIN!
Maybe you need to broaden your horizons some and not just seek negative opinions.
When I see a 80% bad review on anything by MS, I naturally expect it's a internet gripe campaign. And likewise said about *nix. Then I go digging for the truth, because it's in the middle of the warring factions.The benchmarks are on page generation times (which is what matters to the end user with a browser). The developers at vBulletin made a note that in WS2003, vBulletin can be faster, and can handle some calls better. And these are from those who optimize their forums at root level, and with php accelerators (like Zend and MMTurckcache) on *nix to get the best page load performance. I haven't tried WS2003 yet, but the next server I get I'll get 2003 installed with Hemi and give it a try (But if ASP forums get better I just might ditch vBulletin -- never seen a forum load as fast as theirs, even with a cleaned cache).
Besides I'm a stickler of good hardware, and MS requires servers to use good parts (no beat up PIII will do).
Originally posted by: Terumo
Actually they're so important now that most web host software has a GUI (accept maybe Netadmin). CPanel/Hsphere/Hemi, etc.. Most common tasks are done through it now (except for recompiling a kernel and direct system file changes). It's because it's a lot easier to get a lot of work done visually. One typo on a command line and it could wipe out the OS -- and even SysAdmins make that booboo.
Eventually the GUI will come to the last domain of the old *nixers.
Won't happen anytime soon. There are enough purists out there to keep the CLI where it is. The CLI is just so much more powerful.
Hemi? Like a dodge? Or part of a sphere?
I'm thinking you're having dinner with the significant other, you get that dreaded call, so you login with your PDA over cellular.
Maybe you need to broaden your horizons some and not just seek negative opinions.
The benchmarks are on page generation times (which is what matters to the end user with a browser). The developers at vBulletin made a note that in WS2003, vBulletin can be faster, and can handle some calls better. And these are from those who optimize their forums at root level, and with php accelerators (like Zend and MMTurckcache) on *nix to get the best page load performance. I haven't tried WS2003 yet, but the next server I get I'll get 2003 installed with Hemi and give it a try (But if ASP forums get better I just might ditch vBulletin -- never seen a forum load as fast as theirs, even with a cleaned cache).
No link?
Besides I'm a stickler of good hardware, and MS requires servers to use good parts (no beat up PIII will do).
With *nix I can use everything from the biggest (Linux S/390) to the smallest (OpenBSD/Mac68k). And pretty much everything in between.
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: Terumo
Actually they're so important now that most web host software has a GUI (accept maybe Netadmin). CPanel/Hsphere/Hemi, etc.. Most common tasks are done through it now (except for recompiling a kernel and direct system file changes). It's because it's a lot easier to get a lot of work done visually. One typo on a command line and it could wipe out the OS -- and even SysAdmins make that booboo.
Eventually the GUI will come to the last domain of the old *nixers.
Won't happen anytime soon. There are enough purists out there to keep the CLI where it is. The CLI is just so much more powerful.
So true, I love the CLI.
I find Mozilla's GUI, bookmarks(!), history, and tabbed browsing to be easier/quicker for me than IE's.
You mean GEnie?
How about QLink, The Source, Peoplelink?
It's going to happen, as more desktop users start using servers. Give it 10 years, Grandma will be running a server.
If I had Hsphere listed that took care of the sphere part.
And if you want that Hemi, I hope you're a purist enough to have the exact rally strips and rollbar (I like the GTO, as it was at least available to the general public).
You probably knew what I was refering too, anyway.
HELM (and put down the matchbox, and go look at the software). I'm thinking if your significant other doesn't have at least a 56k modem, and you're a sysadmin, s/he is a fling!!
And I don't have flings, women aren't usually like that.
If you can search the web for a hemi car, you can search it for vBulletin.
And I don't recall their link posting policy. But gave you enough clues to dig for it yourself.
Try their optimization forum, it would be obvious!
Usually the standard is to throw the cheapest hardware in and load up the software. Unless you goto a dealer that is using proprietary systems ($$$ to $$$$). It's one of the main hue and cries of the web host market, because cheap hardware doesn't work well with MS products (nevermind they won't pay for the disk).
BTW, the major business sites also use MS OS in their web servers.
*nix doesn't suit their needs. I would know I have 2 relatives who are IT chiefs (one on IBM mainframes; the other for workstation networks -- 20 year veterans too). No hype, just the facts. *nix is to windows is to the desktop market. Anything else is MS, or specially designed OS for specific sites with specific needs that neither platform can do alone.
I don't have any negative feelings towards IE, but Firefox just has more nifty features. I liked FF better even when it was buggy and wiped out your bookmarks and was difficult to re-install if something got screwed up. Some pages don't work right in FF, so I just switch over to IE to deal with that page. I've experienced 2 of those problems just this week with links in the Hot Deals forum. That doesn't bother me at all. These little wrinkles will get ironed out. I'm just grateful for all the great FF features. And it's good to know it will always be free and people will continue to improve it. No such luck with Microsoft software.
Long live Open Source.
Down with greedy corporations that drive creative, productive people out of business.
Sometimes they just buy out their competitors and trash their software. Can you say Symantec? What a disgusting predator company.
Sorry I'm late to the party, and a little OT, even here.
Long live Open Source.
Down with greedy corporations that drive creative, productive people out of business.
Sometimes they just buy out their competitors and trash their software. Can you say Symantec? What a disgusting predator company.
Sorry I'm late to the party, and a little OT, even here.
I took one look of it and went....blah. Foxfire looks at least more like IE.
You mean GEnie?
How about QLink, The Source, Peoplelink?[/quote]
Genie as it was Amiga friendly.
Damn shame Amiga bit the dust, as that platform could've whipped the MAC market.
1. If you're using a *nix desktop to just be kewl, you need a life!
2. IE is free, MS doesn't charge you like Opera for it. It's part of what you get with Windows.
Open source isn't the only solution. It's an addition. And personally, I prefer software that ORIGINAL developers worked on the code, than having a zillion fingers in the pie to screw things up ("Oh, but open source spots it and gets out a patch quicker!!....need I say more??).
I like supporting good software. Not soley because FREE = BETTER.
What happened to NS? If IE was so bad NS would be the king of browsers still. It isn't, it isn't because it was for purists and the general market doesn't give a damn about the div fights and text align flame fests, they just want to click and go.
NS lost because the time and effort to d/l a browser on a 56k modem to try it, was too much a trouble for grandma. Bill Gates was smart enough to know to help grandma with a build in browser. Now grandma is having a good time visiting the web.
Purists will cut themselves off at the knees in the end. Ask the Apple market about what they lost too (and only beginning to understand now).
I don't care whether the layout and alignment is done with tables or CSS, it is not hard to make it 1) comply with standards, 2) be accessible, and 3) look reasonably good in all important browsers (including Netscape/Mozilla, Safari, and Opera). It does not take long to check the page in most of those (understandably, Safari could be an issue if one doesn't have a Mac - I don't), and any excuse for a poorly coded page that only works in IE is nothing but laziness.
Sheesh, it's not a freakin religion, and I hope you're not implying that the open source crowd is a bunch of communists with the Soviet Union comment. :roll:
Some people don't want to use a MS browser for numerous reasons. Some can not use a (reasonably up to date, anyway, in the case of MacOS) MS browser. If you don't care enough to make your site work to an acceptable level (most of us "weirdos" won't care if we loose the rich text editor, just give us a plain textbox and we'll be happy), then that's your choice. It's not going to stop us from complaining, but you wouldn't want our business anyway.
Originally posted by: Terumo
It's going to happen, as more desktop users start using servers. Give it 10 years, Grandma will be running a server.
Trust me, there is tradition and some *nixers like it.
That doesn't help when you're out someplace. And my chick doesn't even have a computer.
Bull.
Cheap hardware works just fine with Microsoft products. I've been in plenty of environments where it's the standard.
BTW, the major business sites also use MS OS in their web servers.
It's also incorrect in many instances. Take IBM for one. Apache on AIX. SUN.com runs SUN's webserver on Solaris. Earthlink: Netscape on Solaris, AOL: AOL server on Solaris, cnn.com: Apache on Linux, apple.com: apache on Mac OS X, att.com: netscape on Solaris...
Every government installation I've been on has a mix of *nix and Windows (in all capacities).
They both have their strengths. I prefer *nix. It makes sense. Windows doesn't. I find Windows to be a pain in the rear to use. Plus, security wise, it doesn't hold up (find a good suite of free (open source + no $) security tools).
Precisely why I prefer *NIX as well.
When I'm forced to use Windows, I always end up frustrated, despite originally coming from a Windows background(well Mac if you go back some 15 years, but I didn't do any serious work back then).
Also, there are just so many useful tools available, troubleshooting in Windows is a PITA.
Anyone who complains about how hard it is making a site look good in FF just doesn't know how to code properly, because if you are coding properly it will look good.
From what I've experienced, if you follow the standards the chances of making your browser look right in ALL browsers is quite high. If it doesn't look right in IE or FF, it shouldn't be that hard to make a quick fix.
People should follow the standards because it makes life easier for everyone.
From what I've experienced, if you follow the standards the chances of making your browser look right in ALL browsers is quite high. If it doesn't look right in IE or FF, it shouldn't be that hard to make a quick fix.
People should follow the standards because it makes life easier for everyone.
Grandma will be operating a server, and she'd need it. They're living longer and cooking and babysitting grandkids don't cut it anymore.
Usually if you're out some place and need to do evals that bad, home/office/broadband kiosk shouldn't be that far away.
You got a job then to do, because your "chick" needs one. Besides, it's a good excuse to come over more.
Bull.
Ladies today may not, but those I know were raised properly.
Not the server environment -- at least none that hopes to survive long even in environmental cooled units . There is a difference between using an Intel and Supermicro board too, that doesn't count.
You're mentioning only computer sites that's in direct competition with MS. And you quote IBM as it's safe, because of a 10 year lawsuit against MS (which it lost) and it's offering Linux in some setups. If IBM embraced and Windows OS, you'd condemn it.
Still reaching. It's the same hype that was done when MS won the contract to power the computers for the US sub fleet. Every gliche made the *nix folks slobber (meanwhile they wish to forget their buglist and security patches -- I find auto updates a lot better, than WGET and d/ling a tar ball and installing it. Too much work to just make sysadmins look important).
Windows holds up well, if folks keep it up to date, just like any system. Like I said, I never had a security problem with Windows -- it's the other software that can be truly crappy, like crashing because of the program drivers are out of date, and the manufacturer refuses to release updates in months, and sometimes refuses (like ATI and it's TV Wonder capture card during the XP transition).
Besides, if a person has to do more than the basics they have to use Windows. It was like that long before *nix was anything but a new toy. Heck, even my 286 had MS-DOS and everything back them was IBM compatible (it's still operational. Have pics if you want to see a 1988 computer with 2k of memory and MS-DOS that still works - no Y2K scare there - even managed to cram Wordperfect 6.0 on it).
Anyone who thinks one standard of code will align everything right in every browser, just doesn't know anything about web design him/herself. Coders are still factoring NS4 in the mix. Remember that browser?
Chances are it doesn't look right without a lot of effort. I don't know how exacting you are and what you'd let slide, but if a client wants a site to look the same in every main browser, you got a chore ahead of you -- especially if it's not a dull bland cookie cutter style straight from Meyer's books.
The drive is to take presentational code out of HTML (which is XHTML), but no matter how designers try they still have to go back and use a table. Very few tableless designs work in all browsers properly, and most look as ugly as a mangey dog.
It'll be years before any semblence of compliance emerges.
If you're troubleshooting in Windows that much, chances are you have other issues than Windows itself.
Take for example the Norton Anti-virus program problem with XP2. Not an issue with Windows, it's a program issue with Norton. Easy solution: pull Norton and it's bloatware and put in a AV that is updated.
I certainly can't be the only person on Earth not to have Windows problems, especially since I'm not a programmer let alone a MS engineer (nor my relatives tweak this rig).
Please elaborate?
Oh and Google runs Linux, Yahoo runs FreeBSD, GM runs Linux, Amazon runs Linux, and ISC runs FreeBSD.
Either platform is perfectly capable of running major sites, and which one people pick will depend on their situation.
Originally posted by: Terumo
If you're troubleshooting in Windows that much, chances are you have other issues than Windows itself.
Take for example the Norton Anti-virus program problem with XP2. Not an issue with Windows, it's a program issue with Norton. Easy solution: pull Norton and it's bloatware and put in a AV that is updated.
I certainly can't be the only person on Earth not to have Windows problems, especially since I'm not a programmer let alone a MS engineer (nor my relatives tweak this rig).
Tcpdump is an invaluable tool under *NIX, what do I use under Windows?
Just as a quick example.
Somehow I can't help but get the feeling that you don't admin a whole lot of systems, Windows and UNIX have their strengths and weaknesses, but I've never heard an admin in either camp downplay the importance of good troubleshooting tools.
Oh and if the command line is a thing of the old, why has MS spent time developing MSH?
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