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Why exactly are Muslim extremists killing Muslims in Iraq?

I

isasir

Diamond Member
Simple question which I'm sure has been posted numerous times here in P&N, but I don't know how to search for it.

I assume the point is to make it look like a failure for the U.S., but is that really the only point? Not that extremists are bright people to begin with, but it just seems too odd to kill your own people for the sake of the same religion that they all share. (I'm referring to the innocents in suicide bombings, whom extremists can't flat out say 'well, he's supporting the US because he's a police officer'.
 
Because the Sunnis hate Shiites, and Shiites hate Sunnis... and because when you have no job, no woman, and no future, you go f-ing bonkers... and all you need is someone to strap some dynamite to your chest and promise you heaven and 72 hard-boiled raisins.
 
Just like those who killed their countrymen during WWII - because they can, and they presume it will be appreciated.

Sick flaw of society, any society.
 
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Just like those who killed their countrymen during WWII - because they can, and they presume it will be appreciated.

Sick flaw of society, any society.
Click to expand...

lack of education.

Not you, them.
 
Are some of the bombers likely doing it for the promise of heaven and the virgins? I mean, WTF kind of brainwashing is given for that? "Kill your fellow Muslims and the God we all worship will reward you."
 
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Just like those who killed their countrymen during WWII - because they can, and they presume it will be appreciated.

Sick flaw of society, any society.
Click to expand...

lack of education.

Not you, them.
Click to expand...
Not true at all. Studies of suicide bombers have found that overwhelmingly, they are not poor -- they are typically middle class -- nor are they uneducated. Most suicide bombers are middle-class college students.
 
Originally posted by: Aimster
lack of education.
Click to expand...
I am revolted to be agreeing with you, but I've been screaming that off the top of my lungs for ages now.

The blame for Islamic Terrorism can be put squarely on the shoulders of the leaders of Arab countries... because when they're faced with real social problems, it's just too easy to pass up the opportunity to blame anyone but themselves, and get away with it.

If someone forced two generations of these kids to get a real education, their greed would become the vehicle of their hostility, just like for the people in the western world.
 
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Just like those who killed their countrymen during WWII - because they can, and they presume it will be appreciated.

Sick flaw of society, any society.
Click to expand...

lack of education.

Not you, them.
Click to expand...
Not true at all. Studies of suicide bombers have found that overwhelmingly, they are not poor -- they are typically middle class -- nor are they uneducated. Most suicide bombers are middle-class college students.
Click to expand...

It's the environment. It encourages that kind of behaviour.
 
Originally posted by: Meuge
It's the environment. It encourages that kind of behaviour.
Click to expand...
They do seem to garner the same type of veneration analogous to what Americans typically would have for a soldier that throws himself on a grenade to save others.

 
Arabs are generally wealthy, especially the ones in Saudi Arabia.
Ex:
Mike Tyson. Give him millions of dollars and he will still act like the Mike Tyson that he was raised to be. Money will not change his behavior. His mother must have dropped him on the head several thousand times.

In Saudi Arabia the Arabs are too lazy to work so they import most of their workers to work for them while the average citizen sits at home and scratches their ass. (I am not making this up. Look at the labor force statistics and you will see plenty of foreigners from Asia).

As for the education system in Saudi Arabia, I don't think their education system is going to do much good when the Wahhabism sect of Islam is growing fast in Saudi Arabia.

If you look at all countries that have strong followers of Wahhabism you will see "honor killings".

They might be educated, but they use their education to change a religion that best suites their extremist views.

I wonder what they teach at Saudi Arabian universities. Political Science is probably Islamic science (taught by a professor who follows Wahhabism).

Apparently the U.S feels Saudi Arabia is our friend so what the hell do I know..
 
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Originally posted by: Meuge
It's the environment. It encourages that kind of behaviour.
Click to expand...
They do seem to garner the same type of veneration analogous to what Americans typically would have for a soldier that throws himself on a grenade to save others.
Click to expand...
It gives us an interesting insight into the mockery that the great cultures of the middle east have now incorporated into themselves. They celebrate a man who kills others, as opposed to saves others.
 
Originally posted by: Meuge
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Originally posted by: Meuge
It's the environment. It encourages that kind of behaviour.
Click to expand...
They do seem to garner the same type of veneration analogous to what Americans typically would have for a soldier that throws himself on a grenade to save others.
Click to expand...
It gives us an interesting insight into the mockery that the great cultures of the middle east have now incorporated into themselves. They celebrate a man who kills others, as opposed to saves others.
Click to expand...
I respect other cultures, and have a live and let live philosophy. However, the indoctrination methods some of these "leaders" use on their people is reprehensible, even vile, IMHO. If I understand it correctly? They do not even have the excuse of killing infidels since other muslims are involved. Or is there some religous text they can site and interpret that can be interpreted/misinterpreted to justify it? Although their practice and philosophy about Islam seems to differ radically, they are no more "rightous" than Catholics and Protestants who murder each other, again IMO.

 
Originally posted by: isasir
Are some of the bombers likely doing it for the promise of heaven and the virgins? I mean, WTF kind of brainwashing is given for that? "Kill your fellow Muslims and the God we all worship will reward you."
Click to expand...

Actually according to the Koran it is a sin to kill out of spite, the Koran also forbids suicide and the Koran says nothing about the 72 virgins, it comes from a Muslim saying that has dubiously attributed to Muhammad and this saying says nothing about suicide attacks.
 
Originally posted by: fierydemise
Originally posted by: isasir
Are some of the bombers likely doing it for the promise of heaven and the virgins? I mean, WTF kind of brainwashing is given for that? "Kill your fellow Muslims and the God we all worship will reward you."
Click to expand...

Actually according to the Koran it is a sin to kill out of spite, the Koran also forbids suicide and the Koran says nothing about the 72 virgins, it comes from a Muslim saying that has dubiously attributed to Muhammad and this saying says nothing about suicide attacks.
Click to expand...


Jesus has that problem, too.
 
Originally posted by: Aimster
Arabs are generally wealthy, especially the ones in Saudi Arabia.
Ex:
Mike Tyson. Give him millions of dollars and he will still act like the Mike Tyson that he was raised to be. Money will not change his behavior. His mother must have dropped him on the head several thousand times.

In Saudi Arabia the Arabs are too lazy to work so they import most of their workers to work for them while the average citizen sits at home and scratches their ass. (I am not making this up. Look at the labor force statistics and you will see plenty of foreigners from Asia).

As for the education system in Saudi Arabia, I don't think their education system is going to do much good when the Wahhabism sect of Islam is growing fast in Saudi Arabia.

If you look at all countries that have strong followers of Wahhabism you will see "honor killings".

They might be educated, but they use their education to change a religion that best suites their extremist views.

I wonder what they teach at Saudi Arabian universities. Political Science is probably Islamic science (taught by a professor who follows Wahhabism).

Apparently the U.S feels Saudi Arabia is our friend so what the hell do I know..
Click to expand...

I've been wondering about Wahhabisms and its effect on a society. I don't really hear of honor killings in Iran and it's mostly Shiite. I hear of honor killings in Pakistan and it has tons of religious schools set up by Saudi Arabia. And it almost seems all of the suicide bombings and beheadings are committed by the Sunni side.

The Shiite side has been remarkably restrained considering what has been happening to them (being blown up worshipping, while attending funerals etc)
 
Originally posted by: Meuge
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Originally posted by: Meuge
It's the environment. It encourages that kind of behaviour.
Click to expand...
They do seem to garner the same type of veneration analogous to what Americans typically would have for a soldier that throws himself on a grenade to save others.
Click to expand...
It gives us an interesting insight into the mockery that the great cultures of the middle east have now incorporated into themselves. They celebrate a man who kills others, as opposed to saves others.
Click to expand...


That's something I've noticed and think is a big key to what is going on. It is not normal for a mother to say, "I hope my son grows up to be a matyr". I just cannot relate to that.
 
Originally posted by: Aimster
Suicide Bombings in Iraq are primarily the cause of outsiders (Saudis, etc.).
Click to expand...

Bingo.

Its partly our fault.

In the gulf war (89') near the end of it, we promised to back the shiites when saddam came to power....we didn't. Shiites got raped, now the shiites and the sunni's hate each other.

Islam is the most radical religion in the world. The majority of muslims, are extreme. If you look at Sryia and Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan and Iraq and Iran and virtually every single muslim country on earth, there laws and rules are pretty harsh. There treatment of women is sick and its not just the extremists who are causing the problem, its the religion itself.

Of course our buddy buddy relations with Saudi Arabia dont help, its a known fact that have thousands of jihadists for kids camps in there country, but we dont do anything about it. Instead we go after a country that has nothing to do with terrorism or any gain for us....

Countries like NK an Iran are the ones that need to be taken care of, not Iraq.
There's a holocaust going on in NK as we speak, a freaking holocaust.

There are more insurgents in Iraq because of the "new" government. They dont like it. Nor do I. (its most definitely not democratic)



 
Arabs are generally wealthy, especially the ones in Saudi Arabia.
Ex:
Mike Tyson. Give him millions of dollars and he will still act like the Mike Tyson that he was raised to be. Money will not change his behavior. His mother must have dropped him on the head several thousand times.
Click to expand...
Bad analogy . . . money, power, influence often changes people. It isn't necessarily deterministic but it's certainly probablistic.

As for Mike Tyson, I know of no proof that his mother abused him. He spend his formative years in a rough neighborhood and got into a lot of trouble. He wound up in reform school which pretty much guarantees a short path to crime, incarceration, and death.

Fortunately, Cus D'Amato interceded. He broke the thug down and built up the kid (and talented boxer). D'Amato was the caring, nurturing parent that every child needs . . . from birth to young adulthood. In the time Tyson spent in D'Amato's home up until D'Amato's death, Tyson committed no crime within or out of the ring.

Tyson turned pro in 1985 and was world champ in 1986 at age 20. D'Amato died in 1985. Appropriate guidance could have produced a very different outcome . . .

Don King vs Cus D'Amato
 
In Islam you are not allowed to murder anyone for any reason. It is a sin and you will be punished

There is however, a way for Muslims to murder others. Jihad.

A Jihad can only be declared by religious leaders if a non-Muslim force is threatening Muslims simply because they are Muslim. The highest ranking religious leaders can only declare Jihads. No Jihad has ever been declared so any murdering is a sin

Shia Muslims have Ayatollahs as their religious leaders. The head Ayatollah in Iraq and the head Ayatollah in Iran have not called for a Jihad against American forces. The Ayatollah in Iraq has called for peace. I believe there are only 4 Ayatollahs (someone correct me if I am wrong).

Now the problem might be that Sunni Muslims do not have religious leaders like Ayatollahs and someone who is simply a leader of a mosque can call for a Jihad.
-Who are the religious leaders of the Sunni world? I have no idea, so maybe someone can fill me in. As far as I know right now there are no religious leaders in the Sunni world making Jihad a thing that "communities" can declare which is totally against the rules of Islam. A Jihad must be declared by all Muslims and not by groups.

Religious leaders and political leaders are not the same. Political leaders cannot declare Jihads unless they are the highest ranking religious leaders in that sect of Islam.

Saddam called for a Jihad but Saddam had no power to call for a Jihad since the Aytollah in Iraq called for peace. Even if the Aytollah didn't say anything, Saddam was not a religious figure so his call for Jihad was nothing but false desperation. Therefore, even the Sunni Muslims cannot listen to Saddam's call for a Jihad.
 
People often go back and forth on this one, though. I am FAR FAR from an Islamic scholar, though I know the Bible (particularly New Testament) quite well.

My understanding is that jihad is comparable to ALL of Jesus' references to "war" or "conflict." It's a personal battle. Man fighting against his worst impulses to become (and act) as a child of God.

In both Islam and Christianity, it's only the people that came afterwards (ayatollahs, priests, popes, etc) that make up BS like "just war" or "holy war."
 
I think the term Muslim extremists is misleading to some people. You hear the term, and you get an image of people who are fanatically devoted to their religion. Perhaps a strange, twisted version of Islam, but Islam all the same. We look at their religion for signs of why they are so screwed up, some of us suggest that it means there is something wrong with Islam, and some of us wonder why they aren't fanatical about the parts of the Islamic faith that prohibit the kinds of things they do.

We're missing the point. They aren't Muslim extremists so much as they are extremists who happen to be Muslim. Faith is not the reason, it is the excuse. Killing someone in the name of your God feels a lot better than just killing them because you are pissed off. The parts of their faith that would suggest more moderate behavior, even something as obvious as not killing their fellow Muslims, is simply ignored. Because following their faith is clearly NOT the goal, any more than it has been the goal of most religious extremists in history. It's about choosing what path to follow, and then trying to use faith to justify it. History is filled with examples of this. Anyone who is even remotely faithful to the Christian God and who follows the teachings of Jesus would not think torturing the unfaithful to death is an ok thing to do. It wasn't that Christianity had a problem during the Inquisition, it was that a group of evil men where simply looking for a reason to do what they wanted to do anyways.
 
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I think the term Muslim extremists is misleading to some people. You hear the term, and you get an image of people who are fanatically devoted to their religion. Perhaps a strange, twisted version of Islam, but Islam all the same. We look at their religion for signs of why they are so screwed up, some of us suggest that it means there is something wrong with Islam, and some of us wonder why they aren't fanatical about the parts of the Islamic faith that prohibit the kinds of things they do.

We're missing the point. They aren't Muslim extremists so much as they are extremists who happen to be Muslim. Faith is not the reason, it is the excuse. Killing someone in the name of your God feels a lot better than just killing them because you are pissed off. The parts of their faith that would suggest more moderate behavior, even something as obvious as not killing their fellow Muslims, is simply ignored. Because following their faith is clearly NOT the goal, any more than it has been the goal of most religious extremists in history. It's about choosing what path to follow, and then trying to use faith to justify it. History is filled with examples of this. Anyone who is even remotely faithful to the Christian God and who follows the teachings of Jesus would not think torturing the unfaithful to death is an ok thing to do. It wasn't that Christianity had a problem during the Inquisition, it was that a group of evil men where simply looking for a reason to do what they wanted to do anyways.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup:
very well said.
 
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