Why don't you carry a gun?

[rudeguy]

What does that mean exactly? If I look down on you you're going to get back at me somehow? Or are you saying you'll conjure up a scenario to prove your gun was necessary?

Personally, I don't look down on people just for carrying a gun. It's on them to use it responsibly, and I'm not going to assume that someone won't without knowing anything else about them. I just don't personally don't see their reasoning applying to how I feel about anything, and the scenarios I've seen in this thread were not enough to convince me to get a gun. But hey, if it gives you peace of mind who really cares why?

Yes. I will plot against you. WTF is wrong with your brain?

 

[Exophase]

Yes. I will plot against you. WTF is wrong with your brain?

No. Seriously. You said you'd show someone the error of their ways for looking down on you. I genuinely want to know what you meant by that. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't mean something stupid and weren't just spouting something totally meaningless but you have to help me out here.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Don't know what black 'stereotypes' have to do with it. Seems like they just may have been going your way or perhaps you dropped something.

Who does a 'show' by putting BOTH hands in jacket pockets?

However; regardless of gun I also carry OC spray (Fox 5.3)

Is that Bullet Tooth Tony?

Bonjour?

 

[IEC]

Always assume the worst and react accordingly. Right. That's not what I consider "logically thinking through" anything. In fact, always assuming the worst sounds pretty stupid to me, because the worst is always going to be pretty bad - instead you should make some kind of reasonable assessment about the likelihood of risks and what impact your responses would have had. The guy was TWENTY FEET away when he pulled out his gun. He would have had plenty of time to get in his truck and, like I said, leave.

He's the real meat of your response "why should a person hide or run away when threatened." It's really about ego, not safety.

Average person can cover 20 feet in less than 1 second. Can you open your car door and get in in < 1 second?

 

[IEC]

If you're in your car and the window's up and he's banging on it he's going to be to the side of the car. You start to move (either pulling out or moving forward), how exactly is that going to run him over? If he's coherent enough to back off when he sees a gun I'm pretty sure he's going to be coherent enough to back out of the way of a moving vehicle...

You really sound like you're manufacturing something bizarre to justify your stance, but I guess that's the whole point of assuming the worst right?

How convenient. So I guess he had to wait for the guy to be within 20 feet before he pulled the gun. Good thing there's no law saying when he could have started getting in his
car.

He was minding his own business and loading things into his truck. He had no duty to retreat from his property. The other guy initiated the conflict by running up to him and escalating.

21 feet is considered red-line, lethal force justified distance. Because at 21 feet or less an assailant can kill you with a knife in <1 second. If the guy involved had assailed a police officer he'd be a puddle on the floor.

So no, I don't think he assumed the worst at all, and did his best to deescalate given that he did not have the option of getting in his vehicle by the time he realized what the guy was up to.

 

[Exophase]

Average person can cover 20 feet in less than 1 second. Can you open your car door and get in in < 1 second?

He was minding his own business and loading things into his truck. He had no duty to retreat from his property. The other guy initiated the conflict by running up to him and escalating.

21 feet is considered red-line, lethal force justified distance. Because at 21 feet or less an assailant can kill you with a knife in <1 second. If the guy involved had assailed a police officer he'd be a puddle on the floor.

So no, I don't think he assumed the worst at all, and did his best to deescalate given that he did not have the option of getting in his vehicle by the time he realized what the guy was up to.

You realize he never said the guy was running at him? He was shouting him down while what appeared to be walking towards him. Whatever the case, it was slow enough that he was able to carefully wait for him to be 20m away (or do you think he only started this mad dash once he reached the "red line"?) then pull out his gun, then make note that he traversed another 10m before stopping. Kind of hard to go from shouting to a burst sprint at someone, and somehow I don't think the average person will cover > 20m starting from a slow pace in < 1 second. The world records for 50m dash are about 5.5 seconds, that's under 30 feet per second. There's no way the average person is going to cover much less distance (you need time to accelerate, look how much worse 50m times are vs 100m times) at 2/3rds the rate!

I don't know where retreating from his property is entering the equation here. He said he was putting an iPod and sunglasses in his car, I can only assume he was carrying it and now it was in his car and he was near it. I also have no reason to believe that he's an excellent quick draw who can pull out a gun from under his shirt in such a quick time as you're saying is necessary... Now if he was not near his car here we can drop the whole scenario, but this whole back and forth has been about him being near the car.

 

[irishScott]

You realize he never said the guy was running at him? He was shouting him down while what appeared to be walking towards him. Whatever the case, it was slow enough that he was able to carefully wait for him to be 20m away (or do you think he only started this mad dash once he reached the "red line"?) then pull out his gun, then make note that he traversed another 10m before stopping. Kind of hard to go from shouting to a burst sprint at someone, and somehow I don't think the average person will cover > 20m starting from a slow pace in < 1 second. The world records for 50m dash are about 5.5 seconds, that's under 30 feet per second. There's no way the average person is going to cover much less distance (you need time to accelerate, look how much worse 50m times are vs 100m times) at 2/3rds the rate!

I don't know where retreating from his property is entering the equation here. He said he was putting an iPod and sunglasses in his car, I can only assume he was carrying it and now it was in his car and he was near it. I also have no reason to believe that he's an excellent quick draw who can pull out a gun from under his shirt in such a quick time as you're saying is necessary... Now if he was not near his car here we can drop the whole scenario, but this whole back and forth has been about him being near the car.

You aren't paying attention. This is 20 FEET, not METERS.

Specifically, 20 feet is 6.096 meters.

 

[irishScott]

If you're in your car and the window's up and he's banging on it he's going to be to the side of the car. You start to move (either pulling out or moving forward), how exactly is that going to run him over? If he's coherent enough to back off when he sees a gun I'm pretty sure he's going to be coherent enough to back out of the way of a moving vehicle...

You really sound like you're manufacturing something bizarre to justify your stance, but I guess that's the whole point of assuming the worst right?

Odd, that's exactly what I think you sound like. Your way introduces far more uncertainty into the situation and puts the would-be victim at a disadvantage and unnecessary risk. There are many more things that can accidentally go wrong when we're talking moving cars and unstable people in close proximity. Velillen said he went 10 more feet towards him after the gun had been drawn, clearly he wasn't that coherent. Never mind that such a method allows the would-be assailant (remember he was making physical threats and closing) to close to face-to-face. Granted there would be a door and a window in between, but that's still highly inadvisable. You have no idea what that man's capabilities were.

And yeah, if some random stranger approaches me in a public garage and starts talking about how he's going to beat me up, you're damn right I'm going to assume the worst. What, is it more reasonable in your mind to assume that he merely wanted a friendly tumble on his way home? What land of sunshine and bunnies do you come from?

Avoiding confrontation is great; but once in a confrontation, the goal is to deescalate the conflict. That can take many forms, but as counter-intuitive as it may seem, getting in the car would actually escalate the situation. It would likely embolden a would-be assailant, who was clearly not thinking straight.

How convenient. So I guess he had to wait for the guy to be within 20 feet before he pulled the gun. Good thing there's no law saying when he could have started getting in his car.

I honestly don't understand your perspective. I can walk, not even brisk walk but regular-pace walk 20 feet in about 4 seconds. Apparently drawing a gun on an unstable individual who's a 4-second WALK away from me, and making physical threats, needs justification to you. This is a rather irrational perspective, or at least a naive one from how you've posted.

 

[Peter Nixeus]

I know kung fu and I rather use nunchucks! :biggrin:

 

[zinfamous]

I already registered my arms as deadly weapons.

 

[gorcorps]

I have a carry permit, and multiple weapons I could or have carried before. In the ~2.5 years I've had a gun and a license I could count the number of times I've carried in public on my hands. I go to the range often, but other than that my guns usually stay home. I'm rarely in an area that I feel unsafe, and I usually just avoid that area. I'll probably carry a gun several more times throughout my life, but I imagine it'll be pretty rare.

 

[mikeford]

Would if I could, but I can't, so I don't.

 

[Zargon]

I didn't realize I lived in the "middle of nowhere":
(House circled in red)

.

looks pretty rural to me

is the area incorporated or are you relying on the sherrifs dept for service?

 

[rudeguy]

looks pretty rural to me

is the area incorporated or are you relying on the sherrifs dept for service?

yea..I didn't understand that.

I hinted that he lived in the middle of nowhere, so he didn't have to worry about city crime.

He then posts a pic showing his house in the middle of nowhere.

He then posts that there is a police station nearby.

I don't understand the argument, so there was no point in replying.

 

[Exophase]

You aren't paying attention. This is 20 FEET, not METERS.

Specifically, 20 feet is 6.096 meters.

No, I am paying attention. Why don't you check the math instead of just assuming it's wrong and making yourself look like an idiot who thinks I must have made a mistake just because I referred to something that used meters.

World record for 50m dash: 5.56 seconds
50 meters = 164.042 feet
World record = 0.03389 seconds per feet
20 feet = 0.68 seconds

So what I said is absolutely correct, that the claim is that the average person will run 20 feet at 2/3rds the rate of a world record sprinter (actually, a little higher). The sprinter is starting from a dashing position, wearing sprinting shows, is on a track that's conducive for sprinting, and is well beyond the median in capability for sprinting. And even they would probably struggle to hit 20 feet in under 1 second given that it's such a shorter distance than 50 meters - you just have to look at how much worse the speeds are for 50m world records vs 100m world records, because you do spend some of the sprint accelerating. So it's very unlikely that the average person will cover 20 feet in < 1 second under any kind of normal circumstances.

As for the other stuff you said, you have to understand, I'm not saying the guy was wrong to draw his gun - he knew what he was doing and I give him the benefit of the doubt that he won't needlessly shoot someone who is a threat. There IS a non-zero risk of a gun actually escalating a situation (if the other person is armed, or if it increases the chances of him coming after you if he sees you later), so it's not just a given that it will de-escalate the situation. But the real point in what I said is that I wasn't convinced enough by the situation that I would have felt I needed a gun, and so am not convinced by it that I want to carry a gun over things like that. Yes, I would have risked getting in my car, and yes I think there'd be enough time if the door was already open (why wouldn't it be if I was putting stuff in it?) and I was right next to it (why wouldn't I be if I were putting stuff into it? Unless the scenario is that he was really leaving his car after putting stuff in it). And once in the car I don't see the argument that leaving would mean running the guy over.

 

[Zargon]

No, I am paying attention. Why don't you check the math instead of just assuming it's wrong and making yourself look like an idiot who thinks I must have made a mistake just because I referred to something that used meters.

World record for 50m dash: 5.56 seconds
50 meters = 164.042 feet
World record = 0.03389 seconds per feet
20 feet = 0.68 seconds

So what I said is absolutely correct, that the claim is that the average person will run 20 feet at 2/3rds the rate of a world record sprinter (actually, a little higher). The sprinter is starting from a dashing position, wearing sprinting shows, is on a track that's conducive for sprinting, and is well beyond the median in capability for sprinting. And even they would probably struggle to hit 20 feet in under 1 second given that it's such a shorter distance than 50 meters - you just have to look at how much worse the speeds are for 50m world records vs 100m world records, because you do spend some of the sprint accelerating. So it's very unlikely that the average person will cover 20 feet in < 1 second under any kind of normal circumstances.

As for the other stuff you said, you have to understand, I'm not saying the guy was wrong to draw his gun - he knew what he was doing and I give him the benefit of the doubt that he won't needlessly shoot someone who is a threat. There IS a non-zero risk of a gun actually escalating a situation (if the other person is armed, or if it increases the chances of him coming after you if he sees you later), so it's not just a given that it will de-escalate the situation. But the real point in what I said is that I wasn't convinced enough by the situation that I would have felt I needed a gun, and so am not convinced by it that I want to carry a gun over things like that. Yes, I would have risked getting in my car, and yes I think there'd be enough time if the door was already open (why wouldn't it be if I was putting stuff in it?) and I was right next to it (why wouldn't I be if I were putting stuff into it? Unless the scenario is that he was really leaving his car after putting stuff in it). And once in the car I don't see the argument that leaving would mean running the guy over.

What irishscott is talking about is the Tueller Drill which is pretty widely accepted concept in personal defense

also remember the attacker doesnt need to be standing on top of you to touch or hurt you.

most people cannot draw aim and fire a weapon in the time it takes a person to cover 21 feet is what the concept is.

 

[Zargon]

So, how big is your dick exactly? :sneaky:

take that shit to craigslist Jules!