WHy don't the mustang or Corvette have any real competition?

[imported_DocHolliday]

[rant]
The mustang outsold the camaro for the simple reason that the camaro was a butass ugly car... Once car manufacturers realize that 90% of the models they produce look like absolute crap they will sell many more cars.

My theory is that they are sitting on so much cash that they are trying to make the consumer fit the cars they make and not making the cars to fit the consumer.

I drive a 93 RX-7 and honestly I can think of very few cars that even come close to rivaling it in terms of looks. The Viper GTS comes to mind, but then again they look very similar. Corvettes are nice too, and they look similar to the RX-7. Anyway, I really don't think that Americans want stupid econobox looking automobiles (new GTO). Ugh, car manufacturers are retarded... Don't get me started on Buick.
[/rant]

 

[GasX]

Originally posted by: K1052If GM, god forbid, actually pulled their heads out of their asses they would realize that the same retro styling that Ford is sucessfully exploiting for the Mustang could work for a new Camaro. But, hell they have already managed to wash Chevrolet's cars right down the crapper quality/design wise.

I blame the poor styling choices and too high base price in the 4th gen f-bodys for the failure of the cars to sell.

I would love to see a new Camaro that took its design cues from this puppy.

And don't get me started on what a crime it was to put GTO on a car that has absolutely nothing with either this or this

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: Doggiedog
Insurance on any of those V8 cars is going to be a b!tch for those who can afford them. I would think the insurance problem would knock more than half of the potential customers (young, single males) off the list.

It's actually surprisingly affordable.

My coworker is 22 & single, he ended up paying $140 a month for his 05 GT. A C5 'Vette (another vehicle he considered) was quoted at $120 a month. GTO was somewhere in between the two IIRC.

Viper GTS

 

[Chadder007]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: TheAudit
The Mustang had direct competition: the F-Cars, rear wheel drive American Muscle. The Mustang did not beat them in performance but trounced them in sales.

If GM, god forbid, actually pulled their heads out of their asses they would realize that the same retro styling that Ford is sucessfully exploiting for the Mustang could work for a new Camaro. But, hell they have already managed to wash Chevrolet's cars right down the crapper quality/design wise.

I blame the poor styling choices and too high base price in the 4th gen f-bodys for the failure of the cars to sell.

That plus it was uncomfortable as f#$*. GM is a bunch of absolute idiots. Also they have absolutely BLOWN any decent concept cars that could have been great and just sucked up on the regular parts bin.

 

[imported_DocHolliday]

oooo a retro styled camaro would be nifty

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: Gothgar

Originally posted by: thedarkwolf

Originally posted by: Gothgar
RSX-S > Mustang

And quite a bit cheaper, and way, way nicer interior, and better gas milage, damn I could go on for days...

FWD < RWD therefor a mustang has to be > RSX-S. The RSX competes against other fwd compacts not the mustang.

okay, okay I will give you the RWD thing...

how 'bout a s2000? rear wheel drive, goes for about 30k, is that comparible?

S2000 is hardly a real sports car; lacks displacement and torque - 160 lbs of torque just doesn't quite put it in the same category.
I think most people also consider that a 'real' sports car needs a V8, V6 at a minimum.

 

[Doggiedog]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: Doggiedog
Insurance on any of those V8 cars is going to be a b!tch for those who can afford them. I would think the insurance problem would knock more than half of the potential customers (young, single males) off the list.

It's actually surprisingly affordable.

My coworker is 22 &amp; single, he ended up paying $140 a month for his 05 GT. A C5 'Vette (another vehicle he considered) was quoted at $120 a month. GTO was somewhere in between the two IIRC.

Viper GTS

:Q

But then again, I live in the insurance rip off capital of the world, NJ.

 

[GasX]

Originally posted by: Mwilding

Originally posted by: K1052If GM, god forbid, actually pulled their heads out of their asses they would realize that the same retro styling that Ford is sucessfully exploiting for the Mustang could work for a new Camaro. But, hell they have already managed to wash Chevrolet's cars right down the crapper quality/design wise.

I blame the poor styling choices and too high base price in the 4th gen f-bodys for the failure of the cars to sell.

I would love to see a new Camaro that took its design cues from this puppy.

And don't get me started on what a crime it was to put GTO on a car that has absolutely nothing with either this or this

And how cool would it be to see modern versions of:

Dodge Challenger R/T
Plymouth Hemi Cuda
Chevy Nova!
or perhaps a...
SUPERBIRD! 😀

 

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: Gothgar

Originally posted by: thedarkwolf

Originally posted by: Gothgar
RSX-S > Mustang

And quite a bit cheaper, and way, way nicer interior, and better gas milage, damn I could go on for days...

FWD < RWD therefor a mustang has to be > RSX-S. The RSX competes against other fwd compacts not the mustang.

okay, okay I will give you the RWD thing...

how 'bout a s2000? rear wheel drive, goes for about 30k, is that comparible?

S2000 is hardly a real sports car; lacks displacement and torque - 160 lbs of torque just doesn't quite put it in the same category.
I think most people also consider that a 'real' sports car needs a V8, V6 at a minimum.

I think people have a different meaning of sportscars. Some people would define it the way you did especially in this country. Some people... would defy sportscars as pure driving experiences regardless of power or torque.

A lot of people would consider a Miata a sportscar... but it doesnt have your mind numbing torque from a V8... but it can kick big fat asses in auto-x.

 

[Doggiedog]

Originally posted by: bR

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: Gothgar

Originally posted by: thedarkwolf

Originally posted by: Gothgar
RSX-S > Mustang

And quite a bit cheaper, and way, way nicer interior, and better gas milage, damn I could go on for days...

FWD < RWD therefor a mustang has to be > RSX-S. The RSX competes against other fwd compacts not the mustang.

okay, okay I will give you the RWD thing...

how 'bout a s2000? rear wheel drive, goes for about 30k, is that comparible?

S2000 is hardly a real sports car; lacks displacement and torque - 160 lbs of torque just doesn't quite put it in the same category.
I think most people also consider that a 'real' sports car needs a V8, V6 at a minimum.

I think people have a different meaning of sportscars. Some people would define it the way you did especially in this country. Some people... would defy sportscars as pure driving experiences regardless of power or torque.

A lot of people would consider a Miata a sportscar... but it doesnt have your mind numbing torque from a V8... but it can kick big fat asses in auto-x.

I concur. How can you not consider classic cars like Triumphs and Alpha Romeo Spiders sportscars?

 

[TheAudit]

Originally posted by: CVSiN

the Sales are not dismal just the morons at Pontiac sent over 50% of the cars to the northern states like that press release said...
we have peeps on waiting lists down here for the damn car...
paying 10k over sticker to get one..
Ive seen 2 in Houston I met one girl at Metallica concert that was driving one and she said she waited 8 months to get hers and payed premium for it and the dealer wasnt expecting hardly anymore..
If Pontiac would learn where the Muscle car market is.. down here in the South Mustangs Corvettes firebirds galore driven year round and peeps trying to buy GTOs but they are all up north..
they would have a solid product.

GTO sales are limping, dude. No matter how you cut it, they are not selling as many as they had originally predicted. Shooting for 12,000 units a year is not a whole lot.
No waiting list here in NY, GTOs just sitting at dealer. Too bad, it's a nice car.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: bR
S2000 is hardly a real sports car; lacks displacement and torque - 160 lbs of torque just doesn't quite put it in the same category.
I think most people also consider that a 'real' sports car needs a V8, V6 at a minimum.

I think people have a different meaning of sportscars. Some people would define it the way you did especially in this country. Some people... would defy sportscars as pure driving experiences regardless of power or torque.

A lot of people would consider a Miata a sportscar... but it doesnt have your mind numbing torque from a V8... but it can kick big fat asses in auto-x.

[/quote]

A lot of people would place the original MG very high up the all-time sportscar list.

I can think of a lot of words to describe the MG, including 'fun' and 'british-racing-green' but 'fast' is definitely not on the list. The miata is really nothing more than a blatant MG rip-off, and it's still a brilliant sportscar in its own right.

I wouldn't necessarily even count ferraris, vettes, M3/M5, otr lots of other high-performance cars as true 'sportscars'. To various degrees, they're really 'supercars'. I would put mustangs on the borderline as sportscars; they're cheap, fun, and come in convertible versions.

 

[Fingers]

Originally posted by: rh71
if you want to know why the price difference, at least the 350z has the reliability (come on, it's going against Ford) and better interior.

You said it - cheap sports car... all go and no flow.

When I worked in a garage a did an oil change on a new 350Z and the uderside was already trashed at 5,000 miles due to speed bumps, it's an all aluminum hunk of crap. I pitty anybody in one of those involved in an accident. Especially involving a larger american made vehical.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: TheAudit

Originally posted by: CVSiN

the Sales are not dismal just the morons at Pontiac sent over 50% of the cars to the northern states like that press release said...
we have peeps on waiting lists down here for the damn car...
paying 10k over sticker to get one..
Ive seen 2 in Houston I met one girl at Metallica concert that was driving one and she said she waited 8 months to get hers and payed premium for it and the dealer wasnt expecting hardly anymore..
If Pontiac would learn where the Muscle car market is.. down here in the South Mustangs Corvettes firebirds galore driven year round and peeps trying to buy GTOs but they are all up north..
they would have a solid product.

GTO sales are limping, dude. No matter how you cut it, they are not selling as many as they had originally predicted. Shooting for 12,000 units a year is not a whole lot.
No waiting list here in NY, GTOs just sitting at dealer. Too bad, it's a nice car.

one of is us on the wrong planet. wasn't that the point of CVSiN's post? that GTO sales look worse than they should because pontiac shipped too many GTO's up north where people are less likely to buy a RWD Car?

 

[TheAudit]

The only definition of a sports car is being limited to two seats. An S2000 is a sports car, a Miata is a sports car, a Mustang is a 2+2, it is not a sports car.

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: Doggiedog

I concur. How can you not consider classic cars like Triumphs and Alpha Romeo Spiders sportscars?

I, at least, consider those exactly what you called them: classics.

One would hardly take one of those vehicles out to the track today or compare the skid pad, power, braking, etcetera with a new Corvette/Mustang/350z/BMW and so forth.

Again, they are classics and not a sports car that somebody is going to comparison shop with a 'vette.

Apples to oranges, bud.

 

[TheAudit]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: TheAudit

Originally posted by: CVSiN

the Sales are not dismal just the morons at Pontiac sent over 50% of the cars to the northern states like that press release said...
we have peeps on waiting lists down here for the damn car...
paying 10k over sticker to get one..
Ive seen 2 in Houston I met one girl at Metallica concert that was driving one and she said she waited 8 months to get hers and payed premium for it and the dealer wasnt expecting hardly anymore..
If Pontiac would learn where the Muscle car market is.. down here in the South Mustangs Corvettes firebirds galore driven year round and peeps trying to buy GTOs but they are all up north..
they would have a solid product.

GTO sales are limping, dude. No matter how you cut it, they are not selling as many as they had originally predicted. Shooting for 12,000 units a year is not a whole lot.
No waiting list here in NY, GTOs just sitting at dealer. Too bad, it's a nice car.

one of is us on the wrong planet. wasn't that the point of CVSiN's post? that GTO sales look worse than they should because pontiac shipped too many GTO's up north where people are less likely to buy a RWD Car?

He had stated the sales were not poor but even on the Pontiac GTO fansite, the #1 item is about the poor sales. It doesn't matter what the reasons are, the sales are not what the planners originally envisioned for this vehicle.

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: TheAudit
The only definition of a sports car is being limited to two seats. An S2000 is a sports car, a Miata is a sports car, a Mustang is a 2+2, it is not a sports car.

You may want to explain your definition of a sports car to GM, Ford, Nissan, and everybody else.

 

[TheAudit]

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: TheAudit
The only definition of a sports car is being limited to two seats. An S2000 is a sports car, a Miata is a sports car, a Mustang is a 2+2, it is not a sports car.

You may want to explain your definition of a sports car to GM, Ford, Nissan, and everybody else.

What for? They all have a sports car on their roster.

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: TheAudit

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: TheAudit
The only definition of a sports car is being limited to two seats. An S2000 is a sports car, a Miata is a sports car, a Mustang is a 2+2, it is not a sports car.

You may want to explain your definition of a sports car to GM, Ford, Nissan, and everybody else.

What for? They all have a sports car on their roster.

You insisted that the "only" definition of a sports car is one that is limited to two seats. However the people that manufacture cars do not seem to follow your definition.

 

[CVSiN]

Originally posted by: TheAudit

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: TheAudit

Originally posted by: CVSiN

the Sales are not dismal just the morons at Pontiac sent over 50% of the cars to the northern states like that press release said...
we have peeps on waiting lists down here for the damn car...
paying 10k over sticker to get one..
Ive seen 2 in Houston I met one girl at Metallica concert that was driving one and she said she waited 8 months to get hers and payed premium for it and the dealer wasnt expecting hardly anymore..
If Pontiac would learn where the Muscle car market is.. down here in the South Mustangs Corvettes firebirds galore driven year round and peeps trying to buy GTOs but they are all up north..
they would have a solid product.

GTO sales are limping, dude. No matter how you cut it, they are not selling as many as they had originally predicted. Shooting for 12,000 units a year is not a whole lot.
No waiting list here in NY, GTOs just sitting at dealer. Too bad, it's a nice car.

one of is us on the wrong planet. wasn't that the point of CVSiN's post? that GTO sales look worse than they should because pontiac shipped too many GTO's up north where people are less likely to buy a RWD Car?

He had stated the sales were not poor but even on the Pontiac GTO fansite, the #1 item is about the poor sales. It doesn't matter what the reasons are, the sales are not what the planners originally envisioned for this vehicle.

No I sated that sales are Poor becasue all the GOD BLEESSED CARS are in states that dont want or need them...
These cars are in High demand down here in the South.. yet we have none to sell

 

[styrafoam]

Until the Japanese abandon the minimalist ideas that drive the market in their own country when designing cars for this one, there won't be any. They have started to with trucks and luxury cars, but for sports cars most of them would have to design an entirely new platform for a RWD + V8 car. They probably couldn't justify the cost as it would only be sold in the US market, and would have to make a lot of headway here as the competition is already pretty well entrenched. It doesn't look good on paper to them.

 

[frankie38]

these muscle cars have great straight line speed. bigger market for power and handling ie bmw's

 

[Doggiedog]

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: Doggiedog

I concur. How can you not consider classic cars like Triumphs and Alpha Romeo Spiders sportscars?

I, at least, consider those exactly what you called them: classics.

One would hardly take one of those vehicles out to the track today or compare the skid pad, power, braking, etcetera with a new Corvette/Mustang/350z/BMW and so forth.

Again, they are classics and not a sports car that somebody is going to comparison shop with a 'vette.

Apples to oranges, bud.

Not necessarily kiddo.

We are talking about the definition of a sportscar not who is cross shopping a vette. Just because an old car like the MG or Triumph isn't cross shopped now against a modern car :roll: remove it from the sportscar list. Sportscar in my book means 2 door, 2 passenger and RWD.

Torque, HP, skidpad, all that stuff is performance metrics. Just because a car has under 200HP shouldn't exclude it from being a sportscar as much as having 400HP make a car a sportscar. Performance metrics are not a exclusive criteria as to what makes a car a sports car.

 

[SeaSerpent]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: rh71
if you want to know why the price difference, at least the 350z has the reliability (come on, it's going against Ford) and better interior.

You said it - cheap sports car... all go and no flow.

the 350z was widely criticized when it came out for its crappy interior

also the z has a bone jarring ride and looks really crappy as a convertible.

as for reliability, mustangs have traditionally been very reliable.

Bone jarring ride? It may be a bit stiff but I wouldnt go that far. And when people get in my car they think the interior is awsome.
I like a car that not only preforms, but turns heads....and that is exactly what my 350Z does.
I have never driven a car with such a broad power band as the Z.