Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
Typical white male response(for the record, I'm a white male too)
People who have never been subject to racism don't tend to be too sympathetic to people of other races who have been subject to racism.
Spare me your little lecture. I have plenty of friends of other races that have been exposed to racism and they have told me how it felt. They also know not to get easily offended at comments which were not meant to be offensive. Your political correctness is more annoying than anything else.
Toyota had a myriad of FI options back in the day including the Celica Alltrac, Supra MKIII, Supra MKIV TT, MR-2, there were even some pickups and 4runners with factory turbos as well as options for aftermarket superchargers on the Tundra. The new Tacoma is supposed to have a supercharger. I'm guessing they've cut down on the FI because they're trying to sell their brands on reliability, and reliability and FI typically don't go hand in hand, plus proper maintenance is seldom following for factory FI systems.
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
Typical white male response(for the record, I'm a white male too)
People who have never been subject to racism don't tend to be too sympathetic to people of other races who have been subject to racism.
We also don't perpetuate it as much.
What perpetuates racism is believing that ignoring it makes it disappear and that recognizing it perpetuates it.
I don't think the Jap should have bothered to say anything about "Jap" being a racist term, because it wasn't meant to be. But I find it mind boggling that someone would say that pointing out racism "perpetuates" it. How is someone saying that he experienced racism perpetuating the racism that he experienced? Are the blacks moving into older suburbs across America the ones forcing whites to move out because they don't want to live with blacks? Racism isn't burning crosses anymore, not in 2004. Racism is people like DrNoobie freaking out when the word racism is even mentioned, because he would rather believe that he doesn't recognize racial differences and has negative reactions.
Yes, but with a turbo, you can hit the same power with less displacement, meaning less fuel is used.Originally posted by: Actaeon
Originally posted by: geno
Because, the gentleman's agreement over there is 276HP, and with the course of development engines have taken since then, that kind of HP is easy to come by with a 3+ Litre 6 Cylindar. It used to be that Honda's NSX was the only N/A engine from there that tapped close to that number without forced induction. Wonder why the RX8 and the 350Z are so much cheaper than their earlier counterpart? Lack of complex turbo motors is a big part of it, I assure youThe Z32 300ZX made 300HP with turbos, the 350Z makes almost 290 with no turbos. The Mid 90's RX7 (can't remember the model designation) made something like 250HP with a twin turbo Rotary, and the RX8 makes that with no turbos. So cost is less and they figured that turbo setups weren't necessary.
He just about hit the nail on the head.
No need for turbos when a N/A version makes enough power to hit the limit anyway.
Originally posted by: Howard
Yes, but with a turbo, you can hit the same power with less displacement, meaning less fuel is used.Originally posted by: Actaeon
Originally posted by: geno
Because, the gentleman's agreement over there is 276HP, and with the course of development engines have taken since then, that kind of HP is easy to come by with a 3+ Litre 6 Cylindar. It used to be that Honda's NSX was the only N/A engine from there that tapped close to that number without forced induction. Wonder why the RX8 and the 350Z are so much cheaper than their earlier counterpart? Lack of complex turbo motors is a big part of it, I assure you
He just about hit the nail on the head.
No need for turbos when a N/A version makes enough power to hit the limit anyway.
Same fuel is used to make the same power.
Also in this group. I sure as hell don't get offended when I get called Viet. Unless its meant to be offensive, hey, its all good.
How about if someone called you VC or Charlie, granted you aren't a venture capitalist or a Charles?
Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
Originally posted by: MacBaine
We also don't perpetuate it as much.
"my group doesn't do that"
Go blow your G-d
1) The Z32 (1990-1996) 300ZX had 300 hp (the automatics had 280hp, as the turbos were slightly redesigned. Also the 1996s were rumored to be 280hp as well because of a design change)
2) You do not necessarily sacrifice torque with FI engines. I don't have stock dyno graphs handy, but the "lightly upgraded" (no engine mods, higher boost only) 300zxs put out somewhere around 400 hp and 420 ft-lbs of torque. The power definitely comes on later, but in a 5 speed you still can't floor it anywhere in 1st gear without turning the rear tires into dust.
3) The Japanese car makers stopped making their supercars because the market dried up in the mid 90s. From memory, the 300ZX sold 80k units in 1990, down to 8k units in 1995.
4) Naturally aspirated sportscars are making a comeback because technology improvements have allowed them to get more hp out of the engines (without sacrificing emissions). A NA car will always be "more reliable" than a forced induction car because the forced induction car must by definition have more parts. (IE at the very least it has a turbo or supercharger bolted to it) More importantly is the cost issue - after design, tooling, etc, again - the forced induction models will be more expesnive because of the added cost of the forced induction mechanism.
5) There is no replacement for displacement, but you sure can get damn close!
2) You do not necessarily sacrifice torque with FI engines. I don't have stock dyno graphs handy, but the "lightly upgraded" (no engine mods, higher boost only) 300zxs put out somewhere around 400 hp and 420 ft-lbs of torque. The power definitely comes on later, but in a 5 speed you still can't floor it anywhere in 1st gear without turning the rear tires into dust.
3) The Japanese car makers stopped making their supercars because the market dried up in the mid 90s. From memory, the 300ZX sold 80k units in 1990, down to 8k units in 1995.
4) Naturally aspirated sportscars are making a comeback because technology improvements have allowed them to get more hp out of the engines (without sacrificing emissions). A NA car will always be "more reliable" than a forced induction car because the forced induction car must by definition have more parts. (IE at the very least it has a turbo or supercharger bolted to it) More importantly is the cost issue - after design, tooling, etc, again - the forced induction models will be more expesnive because of the added cost of the forced induction mechanism.
5) There is no replacement for displacement, but you sure can get damn close!
Also, to all the middle class white males, of course you aren't offended by anything another person calls you, because it's irrelevant to you. You are the one with the advantages. If you were poor white males, you sure as hell would be offended if someone called you white trash.
Well doesn't that fall into the catagory of Nip for the japanese? And yes, I've gotten offended when people have called me by those names, but there have also been times when I wasn't offended. And I'm not just talking about a friend's friendly teasing, but someone who just knows a viet person as a vc or a charlie. I knew a guy who would always call me charlie (although he eventually changed, he does still call me charlie occasionally from habit).
Excellent post, flot. I'd also like to point out that the RX8 and the new Z are substantially cheaper than the old RX7 and 300ZX. If you recall, they were selling for mid to high 30s in the early 1990s... and are selling below $30K in 2004. Adjusting for inflation, I'm willing to bet the new cars are 25% cheaper. And its a LOT easier AND cheaper to bore/stroke the VQ (Nissan) to 3.5 liters and get the 290hp than it is to go through the elaborate turbocharger/intercooler setup that the Z from the early 90s used. Plus, forced induction cars tend to have poor emissions (definitely ask Mazda about the old RX7)... and most car manufacturers are trying to be fairly environmentally responsible, especially with relatively high-volume production cars.
Also, as flot pointed out... FI doesn't magically buy you anything, other than getting more power from a smaller displacement. They tend to use the same amount of gas (their "efficiency" isn't perceptibly better than a NA engine... so the horsepower and gearing directly determine the gas consumption) and they require meaty "bottom-ends" and transmissions (commensurate with the horsepower they create, just like a NA engine)... not to mention greatly increasing the complexity of the engine. If someone said, "you can only use a 2.0L engine", a turbo is definitely the answer (as the WRC drivers). But now, as cars are getting bigger, why not use a NA engine? I personally don't care where my horsepower is coming from.
Of course I would be offended but these guys are not your friends (well, at least not mine). How would you feel if a perfect stranger came up to you and said "what's up g00k?" Is that cool?
It isn't a matter of political correctness. It has always been a matter of right and wrong. Do you think all the civil rights movements in the 60s were done for political correctness, to make it improper to call some people the N word? No. It was done to right wrongs and it extends out to whatever groups are out there.
You said it yourself. I don't see how you can go and say its ok when you've been subject to it and been offended by it. How would you like it if there was a topic that went: Do you like VC food (hey, its easier than to spell Vietnamese or Viet) and inside people kept saying charlie this or VC that?
Ask yourself that question.
You're a moron. It's not racist, it's an abbreviation. It's people like you, and Nocturnal, and the slew of other morons commenting about "jap" being racist, that perpetuate "racism", aka a hypersensitivity about ones race that leads them to beleive they're being discriminated against due to their skin color. Yeah I'm white, YES I've been discriminated against. I played soccer for 7 years. Many of the players were hispanic and were all chummy with themselves and a lot less accepting of the "white folk". Big effing deal.
If you wouldn't take everything as racism people would be a lot more chill and easy to get along with. Instead we have efftards like yourself who take everything as racism and only serve to perpetuate these feelings. I'm not a racist, believe what you will, but I will admit to being uncomfortable around certain races. That's not because I'm racist, it's because these people have a tendancy to be hypersensitive about race to the point where I can't do or say anything without them taking it the wrong way, thus the uncomfortable situation. If you'd all just chill the eff out and stop looking for every little thing that could be taken the wrong way, then we could lay this dead beaten horse issue to rest.
I believe increasing power by using a turbo is more efficient than simply increasing the displacement.Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
Originally posted by: Howard
Yes, but with a turbo, you can hit the same power with less displacement, meaning less fuel is used.Originally posted by: Actaeon
Originally posted by: geno
Because, the gentleman's agreement over there is 276HP, and with the course of development engines have taken since then, that kind of HP is easy to come by with a 3+ Litre 6 Cylindar. It used to be that Honda's NSX was the only N/A engine from there that tapped close to that number without forced induction. Wonder why the RX8 and the 350Z are so much cheaper than their earlier counterpart? Lack of complex turbo motors is a big part of it, I assure you
He just about hit the nail on the head.
No need for turbos when a N/A version makes enough power to hit the limit anyway.
Same fuel is used to make the same power.
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