Why Don't Some People Get It?

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: rocadelpunk
What exactly would you have against drilling our own oil (putting jobs here) and not having to rely on foreign sources? Sounds like a great idea to me, especially since as far as I know there is just a shitttttton of oil in the U.S. (I'd have to ask my friend where/how much for specifics). Also, I don't know if the country could stand another *oil line debacle*. I wasn't alive during that time, but from what I've heard...morale was quite low, people felt like a second rate country and things were just...bad. If we got to that point, I'm sure nobody would care what environmentalists thought.

The problem we face is the tree huggers want us to be a 2nd rate country so we stop buying so much stuff. They want there to be enough resources to go around for everyone so we can all live in harmony. What they fail to understand is that if that's what they want, they need to trade in their berkenstocks and hemp sweaters for boots and shovel and join the communist party.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: G Wizard

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: G Wizard
Its not like they can just start drilling and all of a sudden the price of gas drops.

i hope the price of oil stays insanely high so we look for alternatives.

fuck the turkeynecks.

So, you like paying more for everything that has to be transported anywhere? You think that's somehow good for the country?

well, it can certainly be argued that .90 gallon gas is not good for the country either.

And I can argue that your nose is 2mm too long if the mood strikes me

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

What if you didn't own the land but just lived there? Not everyone owns land and even if you do the government can come in and take away your property rights. Have you ever seen an oil well? They are ugly, dirty, and noisy devices. I wouldn't want one in my backyard.

Another thing is refineries. We have a refinery in Torrance, it's huge, and everytime I drive past it I put my windows up and close the vents in my car because it smells so bad around there. There is also a fine mist of oil that hangs in the air and accumulates on everything, on your car (kind of ironic huh?), on the trees, in the ground (which contaminates the soil and ground water). Not to mention the disasters that are possible if something goes wrong at one of these plants.

No thanks, I wouldn't want to live next to one. No way.

This is the problem though, not that oil is hard to find, but that no one wants it next to them, nor nuclear, nor wind farms.

There needs to come a time when we as a society step up and say 'sorry, we will do the best we can, but you are on resources we need'.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: eits
i was at a bar yesterday and a couple of guys were talking amongst themselves next to me and i couldn't help but overhear their conversation.

they were talking about the price of gas and how what "they need to do is drill in alaska and california and antarctica or something... fuck those tree huggers and start drilling."

i thought, why? what good is that going to do? it'll slow down the drive for alternative fueling and the huge push we're seeing for clean energy and less dependence on the middle east. the less dependent we are on the middle east, the less terrorism we'll have to worry about and the less likely we are to involve ourselves in another war out there.

running out of oil is easily one of the best things going for the world.

Wow.....Just....Wow.

So you have no problems with some 5 BILLION people dying?
Wait, your a Democrat. Of course you dont!

Running out of oil is going to be the worst thing to happen to mankind in the history of the planet. We'll be set back to the stone ago. Hope your ready for it, your social programs and gun bans aint gonna save ya from this one.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
Eeezee and hanoverphist, thanks for that information about solar technology. I didn't know that such methods existed for storing solar-derived energy.

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
For all those claiming we should drill for more oil - couple of things, if refineries are currently working at full capacity, we would need more built to increase the supply of gasoline. And beyond that, we would probably have to wait 10 years before a sizable amount of oil is flowing from those wells, so there would be no immediate relief at all.

Even if the oil supply was immediate, it would only delay the inevitable switch to other energy sources to the absolute last minute

And as was hinted at earlier in the thread, it would just make it that much more difficult to transition to alternatives, as research on them would slow down with lower fuel prices.

Just wait until gas prices get to $10/gallon. People will all be screaming at the government and scientists for not doing anything about finding alternatives.
These people will be the same ones who once whined about "treehuggers and hippies" talking about the problems of oil dependence. These will also be the same people who will also say, "I was always in favor of alternative fuels. I knew that oil would run out one day, but no one listened to me!"

At $10/gallon Bush will be given temporary absolute power which he will promise to relinquish and he will execute the environmentalists, hippies, and democratic senators, take out Iran and Syria's leaders, nuke North Korea, and there will be world peace.

A man can dream.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Jeff7
Eeezee and hanoverphist, thanks for that information about solar technology. I didn't know that such methods existed for storing solar-derived energy.

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
For all those claiming we should drill for more oil - couple of things, if refineries are currently working at full capacity, we would need more built to increase the supply of gasoline. And beyond that, we would probably have to wait 10 years before a sizable amount of oil is flowing from those wells, so there would be no immediate relief at all.

Even if the oil supply was immediate, it would only delay the inevitable switch to other energy sources to the absolute last minute

And as was hinted at earlier in the thread, it would just make it that much more difficult to transition to alternatives, as research on them would slow down with lower fuel prices.

Just wait until gas prices get to $10/gallon. People will all be screaming at the government and scientists for not doing anything about finding alternatives.
These people will be the same ones who once whined about "treehuggers and hippies" talking about the problems of oil dependence. These will also be the same people who will also say, "I was always in favor of alternative fuels. I knew that oil would run out one day, but no one listened to me!"

At $10/gallon Bush will be given temporary absolute power which he will promise to relinquish and he will execute the environmentalists, hippies, and democratic senators, take out Iran and Syria's leaders, nuke North Korea, and there will be world peace.

A man can dream.

You have problems.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

What if you didn't own the land but just lived there? Not everyone owns land and even if you do the government can come in and take away your property rights. Have you ever seen an oil well? They are ugly, dirty, and noisy devices. I wouldn't want one in my backyard.

Another thing is refineries. We have a refinery in Torrance, it's huge, and everytime I drive past it I put my windows up and close the vents in my car because it smells so bad around there. There is also a fine mist of oil that hangs in the air and accumulates on everything, on your car (kind of ironic huh?), on the trees, in the ground (which contaminates the soil and ground water). Not to mention the disasters that are possible if something goes wrong at one of these plants.

No thanks, I wouldn't want to live next to one. No way.

This is the problem though, not that oil is hard to find, but that no one wants it next to them, nor nuclear, nor wind farms.

There needs to come a time when we as a society step up and say 'sorry, we will do the best we can, but you are on resources we need'.

I actually think wind turbines look really cool, but I definitely wouldn't want to live close enough to them to have to put up with noise pollution (which I've read can be pretty unbearable). Nuclear is a bit of a toss-up. I wouldn't be worried so much about meltdown (modern designs are supposed to be incredibly safe, redundant passive and active safety systems, probably close to 0% chance of a runaway reaction occurring), but rather groundwater contamination and stuff like that. But again, visually I don't really have an issue with them.

Something that I think is a great idea and would probably please many people is biofuels from algae. Not only are they high yield (they produce orders of magnitude more oil per acre than traditional crops), but they don't require arable land either. We could be building large algae farms in "useless" desert land where nobody lives, and could potentially grow at least a good portion of our domestic oil, maybe all of it, with minimal environmental and social consequences.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: JS80
At $10/gallon Bush will be given temporary absolute power which he will promise to relinquish and he will execute the environmentalists, hippies, and democratic senators, take out Iran and Syria's leaders, nuke North Korea, and there will be world peace.

A man can dream.

See, they've already tried that "kill everyone you disagree with" approach many times throughout history. It just doesn't work, and generally those who continue to seriously propose it as a viable solution are considered insane, sometimes criminally so.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: JS80
At $10/gallon Bush will be given temporary absolute power which he will promise to relinquish and he will execute the environmentalists, hippies, and democratic senators, take out Iran and Syria's leaders, nuke North Korea, and there will be world peace.

A man can dream of Hitler.

Well...ya I guess you could technically. :roll:

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: JS80
At $10/gallon Bush will be given temporary absolute power which he will promise to relinquish and he will execute the environmentalists, hippies, and democratic senators, take out Iran and Syria's leaders, nuke North Korea, and there will be world peace.

A man can dream.

See, they've already tried that "kill everyone you disagree with" approach many times throughout history. It just doesn't work, and generally those who continue to seriously propose it as a viable solution are considered insane, sometimes criminally so.

Yup, killing nazis didn't work.

But I was making a reference to Palpatine's rise.

 

[rh71]

I know how much I get done in the course of a workday, but what about the people who are supposed to be working on alternative fuels? How much is actually done over the course of a day, week, year? No, let's go back to a typical day. What's really accomplished? R & D is rich... with lunches and parties though.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
When I state that the current push for alternatives is a good thing, and that cheap gas would kill public interest in the technology, I get chewed out and laughed at.

We fear change. Sorry.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: eits
i was at a bar yesterday and a couple of guys were talking amongst themselves next to me and i couldn't help but overhear their conversation.

they were talking about the price of gas and how what "they need to do is drill in alaska and california and antarctica or something... fuck those tree huggers and start drilling."

i thought, why? what good is that going to do? it'll slow down the drive for alternative fueling and the huge push we're seeing for clean energy and less dependence on the middle east. the less dependent we are on the middle east, the less terrorism we'll have to worry about and the less likely we are to involve ourselves in another war out there.

running out of oil is easily one of the best things going for the world.

Wow.....Just....Wow.

So you have no problems with some 5 BILLION people dying?
Wait, your a Democrat. Of course you dont!

Running out of oil is going to be the worst thing to happen to mankind in the history of the planet. We'll be set back to the stone ago. Hope your ready for it, your social programs and gun bans aint gonna save ya from this one.

bi-partisan politics is about as retarded as your reply. You could have done better and somehow incorporate something about illegal aliens in it too.

 

[bignateyk]

The reason we aren't drilling our oil is we are waiting for the rest of the world to run out so that we can either sell it to them at a crazy price, or just hoarde it all for ourselves and end up with half the world attacking us for our oil.

Well, probably not, but it is certainly a possibility

 

[zoiks]

Originally posted by: bignateyk
The reason we aren't drilling our oil is we are waiting for the rest of the world to run out so that we can either sell it to them at a crazy price, or just hoarde it all for ourselves and end up with half the world attacking us for our oil.

Well, probably not, but it is certainly a possibility

So maybe we should quit bitching about the 'dependence on mideast oil'.

 

[wwswimming]

in order to make it through Energy Transition, what some people call
Peak Oil, we'll need all the tools in the tool box. including new technologies
and old technologies ... and drilling in ANWR.

 

[mcmilljb]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Unless we dont come up with good alternative fuel systems by the time it runs out

the technology is all already there... i believe that this administration has been dragging it's feet on alternative fueling ever since 2001 when high horsepower hydrogen-powered cars by bmw were showcased in the u.s. because it was put in power by the big oil companies.

I don't blame the government for shitty products. No one wants to pay a shit ton of money for a battery powered car that cannot be used for a whole day without multiple charges. Make an affordable car that can make it a whole day on 1 battery charge, then you might have something.

I blame the problem on businesses and consumers. No one wants to pay the extra money until they have to. The whole Congress hasn't done a damn thing to help us except raise the price of every commodity thanks to ethanol. Thank the Fed for reducing the value of our currency.

Yes we can drill in Alaska! Big Oil has enough cash to pre pay for any environmental disaster they might create. They could buy Alaska if we let them. They could already have the oil online if those tree hippies didn't block any thing useful from being passed. Most of our pollution comes from burning coal, not gasoline! They should be more interested in encouraging energy conservation and efficiency.

You're just a dumb liberal who doesn't understand the problem. You only understand blame Bush. Also what technology do think is there to just replace gasoline? There is nothing, and there is no infrastructure for it.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: mcmilljb

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Unless we dont come up with good alternative fuel systems by the time it runs out

the technology is all already there... i believe that this administration has been dragging it's feet on alternative fueling ever since 2001 when high horsepower hydrogen-powered cars by bmw were showcased in the u.s. because it was put in power by the big oil companies.

I don't blame the government for shitty products. No one wants to pay a shit ton of money for a battery powered car that cannot be used for a whole day without multiple charges. Make an affordable car that can make it a whole day on 1 battery charge, then you might have something.

I blame the problem on businesses and consumers. No one wants to pay the extra money until they have to. The whole Congress hasn't done a damn thing to help us except raise the price of every commodity thanks to ethanol. Thank the Fed for reducing the value of our currency.

Yes we can drill in Alaska! Big Oil has enough cash to pre pay for any environmental disaster they might create. They could buy Alaska if we let them. They could already have the oil online if those tree hippies didn't block any thing useful from being passed. Most of our pollution comes from burning coal, not gasoline! They should be more interested in encouraging energy conservation and efficiency.

You're just a dumb liberal who doesn't understand the problem. You only understand blame Bush.

Wow...the kool-aid must be strong today...

 

[mcmilljb]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: mcmilljb

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Unless we dont come up with good alternative fuel systems by the time it runs out

the technology is all already there... i believe that this administration has been dragging it's feet on alternative fueling ever since 2001 when high horsepower hydrogen-powered cars by bmw were showcased in the u.s. because it was put in power by the big oil companies.

I don't blame the government for shitty products. No one wants to pay a shit ton of money for a battery powered car that cannot be used for a whole day without multiple charges. Make an affordable car that can make it a whole day on 1 battery charge, then you might have something.

I blame the problem on businesses and consumers. No one wants to pay the extra money until they have to. The whole Congress hasn't done a damn thing to help us except raise the price of every commodity thanks to ethanol. Thank the Fed for reducing the value of our currency.

Yes we can drill in Alaska! Big Oil has enough cash to pre pay for any environmental disaster they might create. They could buy Alaska if we let them. They could already have the oil online if those tree hippies didn't block any thing useful from being passed. Most of our pollution comes from burning coal, not gasoline! They should be more interested in encouraging energy conservation and efficiency.

You're just a dumb liberal who doesn't understand the problem. You only understand blame Bush.

Wow...the kool-aid must be strong today...

Well he's saying some people don't get it. I think he doesn't get it. He probably wants to tax the Big Oil companies. Go tax the commodity traders pushing the price up every day.

 

[BoomerD]

The blame for high oil prices goes to a lot of different places

Commodity traders

OPEC/oil producing countries including the USA

American drivers of all kinds of vehicles

US Automakers for building vehicles that are gas-guzzlers

Chinese and Indian consumers

Big Oil who drills their own oil, yet charges themselves the market price.
(which is a BIG part of why I'm opposed to drilling more in environmentally sensitive areas)

There is plenty of oil supply, the refineries are running at reduced capacity because the demand is down. They could make more gasoline than they are, but we're not using as much, so the only way to keep prices up is to make less...thus artifically skewing the supply/demand equation.

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
For all those claiming we should drill for more oil - couple of things, if refineries are currently working at full capacity, we would need more built to increase the supply of gasoline. And beyond that, we would probably have to wait 10 years before a sizable amount of oil is flowing from those wells, so there would be no immediate relief at all.

That was the excuse . . . umm . . . 10 years ago. Ooops.

And it would have an immediate impact. Oil is traded as a commodity; much of its price is based on speculation. The possibility of a stable supply coming from America in the next decade would more than likely bring prices down relatively quickly.

 

[mcmilljb]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
The blame for high oil prices goes to a lot of different places

Commodity traders

OPEC/oil producing countries including the USA

American drivers of all kinds of vehicles

US Automakers for building vehicles that are gas-guzzlers

Chinese and Indian consumers

Big Oil who drills their own oil, yet charges themselves the market price.
(which is a BIG part of why I'm opposed to drilling more in environmentally sensitive areas)

There is plenty of oil supply, the refineries are running at reduced capacity because the demand is down. They could make more gasoline than they are, but we're not using as much, so the only way to keep prices up is to make less...thus artifically skewing the supply/demand equation.

What's wrong with Chinese and Indian consumers? Are they just dumping it out and burning it? They have the right to use it just like us and the rest of the world. It's mainly the perception that oil is in short supply driving up the costs. We're still getting plenty of gas on a daily basis. I haven't seen any rationing yet, so we must have some gas. We saw a big drop in oil today, but it's a few days from memorial day weekend. Do you think the refiners aren't going to push really hard to make sure extra gas is available for that weekend? They sure as hell know they can charge a premium for this 3 day weekend.

 

[BoomerD]

There's nothing wrong with Chinese and Indian consumers...they just add to the demand, PLUS, if you look at the pollution problems in both countries, it appears that they may not be using oil as efficiently as it could be.

You made part of my earlier point for me. There is NO shortage of gasoline, in fact, the refineries have slowed down production because of reduced demand. That also helps keep prices high, as there's not a large surplus of refined gasoline sitting in the tanks somewhere.

 

[mcmilljb]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
...there's not a large surplus of refined gasoline sitting in the tanks somewhere.

You're right! There are ~500k less gallons.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
There's nothing wrong with Chinese and Indian consumers...they just add to the demand, PLUS, if you look at the pollution problems in both countries, it appears that they may not be using oil as efficiently as it could be.

You made part of my earlier point for me. There is NO shortage of gasoline, in fact, the refineries have slowed down production because of reduced demand. That also helps keep prices high, as there's not a large surplus of refined gasoline sitting in the tanks somewhere.

It's not really "Efficiency" that determines Pollution. In fact, they may very well be using it much more Efficiently. They just haven't adopted tough Emission standards/controls.