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Why don't new motherboards have 2nd IDE controller?

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Originally posted by: wolverineI
Sata drives are as cheap as pata,less cable mess, lower power consumption,wider bandwidth, Havent bought one since the NF7S.No, correction the Dfi NF2. just use the Ide adapter for older drives. Though I use TMODS bios CD method for flashing,I still use a floppy. The only reason I still use any Ide devices is I just dont throw away anything still useful. And as to jimmor, at 55yo I doubt I'm a New Tech Geek
Click to expand...

You obviously aren't reading my posts properly ?

Being a "New Tech Geek" is not an age thing, it is a fixated state of mind !

And since from your posting you appear to still find sensible reasons for using IDE devices, and i'm sure anything else you might find usefull in yesterday's/today's technologies, I would also doubt you are a New Tech Geek !

🙂
 
Originally posted by: jimmor
"conspiracy theories"??? ---> You obviously missed the "real" point being that the initial forced changeover to SATA, like many past "new" introductions, was actually a NEGATIVE experience (SATA was slower than EIDE) that the mass customer didn't need. And because of how HDD devices actually work, any progression of this new SATA technology was always going to be slow, if not pointless, untill someone developed a suitable "electronic" storage solution to partner it ---> and that position remains even today ?
Click to expand...

Of course consumers never NEEDED sata. We also never NEEDED PCI, or AGP, or DDR2, or DDR, or DVDs, or personal computers, or anything that isn't food & shelter. What a bunch of saps, all got scammed by the tech industry buying personal computers. These things are obsolete in a matter of days! No smart consumer would ever see the point in buying one of those!

You raise a good point that the extra bandwidth of the SATA bus is kind of useless using physical mechanical rotating magnetic disks, but you're not seeing the whole picture. The SATA bus is faster than it needs to be so it has room to grow, so that it doesn't have to be replaced in 2 years with another connector like SATA replaced IDE. Also, the technology for putting faster mechnical drives on the SATA bus is already out there, like 10,000 RPM or faster hard disks, but consumers vote with their dollars and they say that 7200RPM is fast enough.
 
Originally posted by: panfist
Originally posted by: jimmor
"conspiracy theories"??? ---> You obviously missed the "real" point being that the initial forced changeover to SATA, like many past "new" introductions, was actually a NEGATIVE experience (SATA was slower than EIDE) that the mass customer didn't need. And because of how HDD devices actually work, any progression of this new SATA technology was always going to be slow, if not pointless, untill someone developed a suitable "electronic" storage solution to partner it ---> and that position remains even today ?
Click to expand...

Of course consumers never NEEDED sata. We also never NEEDED PCI, or AGP, or DDR2, or DDR, or DVDs, or personal computers, or anything that isn't food & shelter. What a bunch of saps, all got scammed by the tech industry buying personal computers. These things are obsolete in a matter of days! No smart consumer would ever see the point in buying one of those!

You raise a good point that the extra bandwidth of the SATA bus is kind of useless using physical mechanical rotating magnetic disks, but you're not seeing the whole picture. The SATA bus is faster than it needs to be so it has room to grow, so that it doesn't have to be replaced in 2 years with another connector like SATA replaced IDE. Also, the technology for putting faster mechnical drives on the SATA bus is already out there, like 10,000 RPM or faster hard disks, but consumers vote with their dollars and they say that 7200RPM is fast enough.
Click to expand...

Don't act like a NERD, unless of course you can't help it ?

And since you obviously don't understand the technologies involved, the 10000 or even 20000 rpm disks would be just as useful and usable to a EIDE setup. Just as these days producing platters with much higher areal densities also is ?

So once again, it has nothing to do with how far it is possible to "tweak" an "old technology" electro mechanical device since that methodology applies to both EIDE and SATA solutions. The real way to majorly benefit from a higher bandwith SATA communications system is where much faster purely electronic storage hardware, at the right price of course, becomes avail to the masses ---> and that's one bandwaggon I will certainly jump on !

🙂

 
Originally posted by: jimmor
And since you obviously don't understand the technologies involved, the 10000 or even 20000 rpm disks would be just as useful and usable to a EIDE setup. Just as these days producing platters with much higher areal densities also is ?
Click to expand...

Except the whole channel contention issue. For that fix alone SATA was worth it in my opinion.

Ok, I shouldn't have lumped you in with some of the other less-informed mourners of PATA since you clearly know your stuff. You're right about solid-state storage needing to emerge on the SATA interface. How sweet would it be to install 4 DDR2 modules through the SATA interface as a permanent RAM disk? I know enough about hardware to know this is possible and even viable yet no one seems to be making anything like it within reach for the average consumer. There is stuff out there that uses DDR but the price and capacity of DDR makes it not as attractive. It's too late for DDR1, why not make the same tech available for DDR2? They could sell that much more RAM if only we could use it that way.

SATA has breathing room to expand into products like this and I'm not sad or frustrated that the industry has chosen to adopt SATA early. I'm almost fully switched over to SATA and never once did I think to myself "Gee I could be saving so much more money if only the thus-far pointless SATA had never been invented!" It just means there is already a large install base of users with open SATA ports waiting to be connected to new higher-speed storage.

I'm still waiting for a link to a $100 terabyte PATA drive, heheh.
 
And here I was wondering why my new MSI P7N Diamond (780I chipset) came 2 IDE ports. I was thinking why in the heck are they including 2 IDE ports on a motherboard with the latest chipset? After reading through this thread I know why.

I haven't used IDE drives since 2002 I believe but I know people still do. Which is fine and dandy. Whatever works for you.

I was in a local store the other day and a gentleman asked the same question, why does all you motherboards have only one IDE port? Do you have one with two ports? The salesman suggested a PCI IDE add-on card as the most economical solution.
 
Originally posted by: panfist
Originally posted by: jimmor
And since you obviously don't understand the technologies involved, the 10000 or even 20000 rpm disks would be just as useful and usable to a EIDE setup. Just as these days producing platters with much higher areal densities also is ?
Click to expand...

Except the whole channel contention issue. For that fix alone SATA was worth it in my opinion.

Ok, I shouldn't have lumped you in with some of the other less-informed mourners of PATA since you clearly know your stuff. You're right about solid-state storage needing to emerge on the SATA interface. How sweet would it be to install 4 DDR2 modules through the SATA interface as a permanent RAM disk? I know enough about hardware to know this is possible and even viable yet no one seems to be making anything like it within reach for the average consumer. There is stuff out there that uses DDR but the price and capacity of DDR makes it not as attractive. It's too late for DDR1, why not make the same tech available for DDR2? They could sell that much more RAM if only we could use it that way.

SATA has breathing room to expand into products like this and I'm not sad or frustrated that the industry has chosen to adopt SATA early. I'm almost fully switched over to SATA and never once did I think to myself "Gee I could be saving so much more money if only the thus-far pointless SATA had never been invented!" It just means there is already a large install base of users with open SATA ports waiting to be connected to new higher-speed storage.

I'm still waiting for a link to a $100 terabyte PATA drive, heheh.
Click to expand...

Something like DDR2 is excellent as a high speed "electronic" storage medium. However thats only true when considered as "powered storage", ie, no data held when no operating volts on chips. And therefore unfortunately of no use to replace the job done by HDD's?

From something I recently read, Seagate, and likely others, intend to market a small number of solid-state (flash technology) HDD's, covering something like 20-60Gb, some time in 2008.

Even so, because of certain limitations of current Flash technology, I wouldn't really expect read/write performance of their initial devices to be all that much faster than available from current generation very high density HDD's. Just have to wait and see ?

And as for the already large base with open SATA ports waiting to get their hands on a viable solid-state solution ---> count me in !

Also, if there ever is a $100 (which would be around £50 to me) 1 terrabyte HDD link, then you better find it fast in order to beat the stampede that such an offer would likely cause ---> and PATA or SATA device, it wouldn't matter ?

🙂
 
Originally posted by: jimmor
Originally posted by: panfist
Originally posted by: jimmor
And since you obviously don't understand the technologies involved, the 10000 or even 20000 rpm disks would be just as useful and usable to a EIDE setup. Just as these days producing platters with much higher areal densities also is ?
Click to expand...

Except the whole channel contention issue. For that fix alone SATA was worth it in my opinion.

Ok, I shouldn't have lumped you in with some of the other less-informed mourners of PATA since you clearly know your stuff. You're right about solid-state storage needing to emerge on the SATA interface. How sweet would it be to install 4 DDR2 modules through the SATA interface as a permanent RAM disk? I know enough about hardware to know this is possible and even viable yet no one seems to be making anything like it within reach for the average consumer. There is stuff out there that uses DDR but the price and capacity of DDR makes it not as attractive. It's too late for DDR1, why not make the same tech available for DDR2? They could sell that much more RAM if only we could use it that way.

SATA has breathing room to expand into products like this and I'm not sad or frustrated that the industry has chosen to adopt SATA early. I'm almost fully switched over to SATA and never once did I think to myself "Gee I could be saving so much more money if only the thus-far pointless SATA had never been invented!" It just means there is already a large install base of users with open SATA ports waiting to be connected to new higher-speed storage.

I'm still waiting for a link to a $100 terabyte PATA drive, heheh.
Click to expand...

Something like DDR2 is excellent as a high speed "electronic" storage medium. However thats only true when considered as "powered storage", ie, no data held when no operating volts on chips. And therefore unfortunately of no use to replace the job done by HDD's?

From something I recently read, Seagate, and likely others, intend to market a small number of solid-state (flash technology) HDD's, covering something like 20-60Gb, some time in 2008.

Even so, because of certain limitations of current Flash technology, I wouldn't really expect read/write performance of their initial devices to be all that much faster than available from current generation very high density HDD's. Just have to wait and see ?

And as for the already large base with open SATA ports waiting to get their hands on a viable solid-state solution ---> count me in !

Also, if there ever is a $100 (which would be around £50 to me) 1 terrabyte HDD link, then you better find it fast in order to beat the stampede that such an offer would likely cause ---> and PATA or SATA device, it wouldn't matter ?

🙂
Click to expand...

And for anyone interested, further to the topic of SATA Solid-State Drives, see links below on Samsung products and rumour of possible 2008 Samsung 128Gb device,

http://www.samsung.com/eu/Prod...uctor/products/ssd.asp

http://www.engadget.com/2007/1...etter-faster-stronger/

http://www.engadget.com/2008/0...sata-ssd-now-official/

🙂


 
Originally posted by: jimmor
Something like DDR2 is excellent as a high speed "electronic" storage medium. However thats only true when considered as "powered storage", ie, no data held when no operating volts on chips. And therefore unfortunately of no use to replace the job done by HDD's?
Click to expand...

There are many devices that convert DDR I memory into a virtual hard disk, and they stay powered by a battery that is charged while the computer is on.

These devices are very useful as page files or as a fast hard disk that requires a lot of random access. And at 4 slots of DDR2, you can expect a maximum size of 8-16GB which would not be difficult to backup if you planned on leaving your computer off for longer than the battery could power the memory.

A quote about the Samsung SSD: The performance of Samsung's SSD exceeds that of a similarly sized hard drive by more than 150%. For example, it can read data at a rate of 60MB per second and achieves write speeds of 40MB per second, which is more than twice as fast as comparable hard disk drives.

Going by your argument...this drive would still function perfectly well as a PATA device. A DDR drive would be more like 20 times faster than a hard disk, not just 2 times, and it could really leverage the bandwidth offered by SATA.
 
Originally posted by: panfist
Originally posted by: jimmor
Something like DDR2 is excellent as a high speed "electronic" storage medium. However thats only true when considered as "powered storage", ie, no data held when no operating volts on chips. And therefore unfortunately of no use to replace the job done by HDD's?
Click to expand...

There are many devices that convert DDR I memory into a virtual hard disk, and they stay powered by a battery that is charged while the computer is on.

These devices are very useful as page files or as a fast hard disk that requires a lot of random access. And at 4 slots of DDR2, you can expect a maximum size of 8-16GB which would not be difficult to backup if you planned on leaving your computer off for longer than the battery could power the memory.

A quote about the Samsung SSD: The performance of Samsung's SSD exceeds that of a similarly sized hard drive by more than 150%. For example, it can read data at a rate of 60MB per second and achieves write speeds of 40MB per second, which is more than twice as fast as comparable hard disk drives.

Going by your argument...this drive would still function perfectly well as a PATA device. A DDR drive would be more like 20 times faster than a hard disk, not just 2 times, and it could really leverage the bandwidth offered by SATA.
Click to expand...

Yes using DDR memory as largish powered RAM storage, or Cache, could certainly help improve a users computing experience. Gamers could certainly have smoother overall game-flow if whole game data was operating from fast cache rather that involving HDD? And as you indicated, the same large cache could benefit just about everything your computer could be used for.

With the cost of DDR so low, surprised that no manufacturer yet has mobo with either, a few Gb of user avail on-board ram/cache, or, extra mobo sockets for users to add memory sticks as required. These days, space shouldn't be a problem ---> example being that my ATX type Asus P5N-E sli, like others, is actually smaller than ATX size. So likely space saved, could have held 2 extra DDR sockets, if not more after some component re-arrangement?

And you are right that current Samsung SSD's, and probably everyone else's for that matter, are not likely to provide huge performance gains over current high density HDD's. Unfortunately we are stuck with the fact that the technology is still at Evolution, not Revolution. However, assuming the competative market price is right, even a 1.5-2x HDD performance gain could help improve a lot of peoples 2008 computer experiences. And maybe by 2009, a new breakthrough in Flash technology, or even a diff technology, will provide even more. And if we keep saying our prayers just right, maybe technology gains will be on an exponential scale ?haha. Who knows?

🙂
 
I have a feeling that faster speeds are already within our reach, but the tech companies just aren't looking in the right place.

Imagine a storage device for huge RAIDs of flash, like 16 or 25 flash memory cards. At $5.50 for a 2GB 150x SD card, it only costs you $140 for 25 of these, each with a read/write rate of 22/15 MB/s. That's a theoretical max of 550/375 in perfect RAID. Yes, there would be some overhead to stripe out that data but it's nothing out of reach of a $100 controller. Those flash cards are so cheap you could even get them out in 32 or 64 disk arrays and each drive could store a unique bit-place (think decimal place) in a 32 or 64-bit value. For $240, I'd invest today. Even if you only get 50% of this theoretical max it's still at least double what the current crap that the industry is passing off as SSD.

If I were still in the computer engineering program at my school I bet I could even make a prototype of this in 10 weeks.

Unfortunately all we have for SSDs are gimped two-fold, once for being low power for laptop use and again just so the industry can easily 1-up itself in 6 months.
 
Ok, I think I've made peace with the fact that I'll only have 2 IDE devices on my new machine. Probably 1 'non-riplocked' BENQ DVD-ROM drive that rips movies in about 5 minutes, and a 300 GB hard drive I bought not too long ago. (I'm still miffed about the floppy controller being there, and would much prefer a 2nd IDE, but oh well)

Anyway, I'm consoled to a degree by the fact that my new motherboard will handle 8 drives, rather than the 4 I can currently support

Check it out:


http://www.asus.com.tw/product...model=2129&modelmenu=1

http://www.mpx.no/aspx/produkt...fovnet.aspx?plid=91790

Problem is, it won't be for sale here in the U.S.A. for another 20 days!


It has:

1) Solid Polymer Aluminum (SPA) capacitors (no early capacitor failure issues)

2) Onboard 780G (ATI Radeon HD3200) graphics with DirectX 10

3) 6 expansion slots (3 PCI, 2 PCI-E X1, 1 PCI-E X16

4) dual monitor support onboard (HDMI, DVI, VGA out)

5) DDR2 1066 support

6) Onboard support for 8 drives (6 SATA, 2 IDE/PATA) with RAID

7) Supports AM2+ processors up to 5200 MT/s

8) total of 12 USB ports supported (4 permanent, 8 additional)

9) AI Gear 2 - choose from profiles to adjust CPU frequency and vCore voltage
from within your operating system. Conveniently store and load
multiple BIOS settings

10) Express Gate Light - boot to a Linux ROM built into the motherboard in just
5 seconds, and use Skype, instant message, Youtube, file downloads and
more without ever booting to Windows! In other words, you can do many of the
most common Internet activities without even installing a hard drive on this thing

11) Noise Filter - this subroutine detects repetitive and background noises such as
fans, air conditioners, etc., and eliminates it in the incoming audio stream when
recording

12) Animated Al Gore Overheat Alarm - Borrowing from the success of Microsoft's "Clippy"
character, this doubly useful utility warns you whenever a politician comes within 50
miles so you can get your family to safety AND tells you whenever you have "system
warming" I.E. - your case temp increases by 1 degree. (ok, obviously I made that one
up)


This is exactly what I was looking and waiting for. Now I only hope it isn't $150 or more!
 
i got a quick question. i also have one PATA drive which i want to use on my new pc as a second hard drive. Also i have an IDE dvd R/W drive. my question can i connect both of them using ide cable which splits into 2.
 
Originally posted by: simpsons
i got a quick question. i also have one PATA drive which i want to use on my new pc as a second hard drive. Also i have an IDE dvd R/W drive. my question can i connect both of them using ide cable which splits into 2.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't be a problem using a hard drive and optical drive on the same IDE cable using the normal primary/secondary jumper settings.

 
Originally posted by: jimmor
Originally posted by: jimmor
Originally posted by: panfist
Originally posted by: jimmor
And since you obviously don't understand the technologies involved, the 10000 or even 20000 rpm disks would be just as useful and usable to a EIDE setup. Just as these days producing platters with much higher areal densities also is ?
Click to expand...

Except the whole channel contention issue. For that fix alone SATA was worth it in my opinion.

Ok, I shouldn't have lumped you in with some of the other less-informed mourners of PATA since you clearly know your stuff. You're right about solid-state storage needing to emerge on the SATA interface. How sweet would it be to install 4 DDR2 modules through the SATA interface as a permanent RAM disk? I know enough about hardware to know this is possible and even viable yet no one seems to be making anything like it within reach for the average consumer. There is stuff out there that uses DDR but the price and capacity of DDR makes it not as attractive. It's too late for DDR1, why not make the same tech available for DDR2? They could sell that much more RAM if only we could use it that way.

SATA has breathing room to expand into products like this and I'm not sad or frustrated that the industry has chosen to adopt SATA early. I'm almost fully switched over to SATA and never once did I think to myself "Gee I could be saving so much more money if only the thus-far pointless SATA had never been invented!" It just means there is already a large install base of users with open SATA ports waiting to be connected to new higher-speed storage.

I'm still waiting for a link to a $100 terabyte PATA drive, heheh.
Click to expand...

Something like DDR2 is excellent as a high speed "electronic" storage medium. However thats only true when considered as "powered storage", ie, no data held when no operating volts on chips. And therefore unfortunately of no use to replace the job done by HDD's?

From something I recently read, Seagate, and likely others, intend to market a small number of solid-state (flash technology) HDD's, covering something like 20-60Gb, some time in 2008.

Even so, because of certain limitations of current Flash technology, I wouldn't really expect read/write performance of their initial devices to be all that much faster than available from current generation very high density HDD's. Just have to wait and see ?

And as for the already large base with open SATA ports waiting to get their hands on a viable solid-state solution ---> count me in !

Also, if there ever is a $100 (which would be around £50 to me) 1 terrabyte HDD link, then you better find it fast in order to beat the stampede that such an offer would likely cause ---> and PATA or SATA device, it wouldn't matter ?

🙂
Click to expand...

And for anyone interested, further to the topic of SATA Solid-State Drives, see links below on Samsung products and rumour of possible 2008 Samsung 128Gb device,

http://www.samsung.com/eu/Prod...uctor/products/ssd.asp

http://www.engadget.com/2007/1...etter-faster-stronger/

http://www.engadget.com/2008/0...sata-ssd-now-official/

🙂
Click to expand...

Thought you were refering to Hybrid drives, Toshiba IIRC. Sata drives with Flash buffers of 8 gigabytes. As I heard they wont be released to desktop use,due to Vista being a piece of trash. Server market only at first. Dvorak rants about it all the time at PC mag.

Just checked as of now only 256 megs of flash buffer on samsung and seagate hybrid drives.
 
Originally posted by: jaredpace
to sell SATA devices. Same reason sp2 didnt get dx10 - to sell vista. same reason new mobos aren't getting ddr2, and ddr3 is $2k.
Click to expand...
Keep going. Same reason horses are prohibited in city limits, to sell more cars or public transportation passes. Same reason doctors insist on doing an X-Ray before and after setting broken bones, to sell more X-Rays.

Goodness forbid anyone might actually want newer technology. Or is it merely that you decide what newer technology is justified for the rest of the world through your own personal subjective view of it?

BTW, I still install a floppy in every build unless requested not to and I've unloaded all my IDE drives in favor of SATA, except for ATAPI optical drives, which I still prefer to use (all mobos come with enough IDE/ATA connectors for two ATAPI drives). So there.
 
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