Why does Apple make it so hard to give them my money?

[busydude]

so honda makes acura's in the exact same factories as the honda peon brand and yet these are completely different cars?

LOL. Foxconn makes laptops for Apple/HP/Dell... in the same factory and yet these are completely different laptops?

 

[natto fire]

so honda makes acura's in the exact same factories as the honda peon brand and yet these are completely different cars?

Sorry I wasn't trying to imply they were completely different, and Honda in particular shares a lot of parts between their two tiers, but this mainly happens at the bottom of the "luxury" line and the top of the "regular". While I agree that there is probably a bit of the price that goes into the badge, I doubt it is really a large amount, and luxury dealer networks definitely cost more to operate than "peon" brands. You are suggesting that Nissan, Honda, and Toyota are all colluding to artificially to take huge profit margins just by slapping a badge on a car? While that is happening these 3 luxo marques are facing stiffer competition across the board from the Korean brands, GM, Ford, European, heck even cannibalizing their own sales with their "peon" brand (why buy an ES300 when an Avalon is almost as good).

The intricacies of car manufacturing and sales is much more complex than computers, which is why I believe it to be a bad analogy.

Even in your post above you try to strengthen it by saying they use the best Intel chipsets. So what, as far as I know, Intel still sells those chipsets to other OEMs. By the way Apple hardware usually has inferior price/GPU performance, so I am not sure where you were going with the premium part tangent.

You can't buy a Camry with a 3UZ-FE engine, or a Civic with a C30A. Apple is taking more or less off the shelf hardware and packaging it in a sleek solid feeling case. PC OEMs have seen their success and copied ideas here and there, and almost always do it for a lower price.

 

[corwin]

i've read apple uses the higher end intel chipsets unlike most OEM's. better screen coating, the aluminum case is close to $100 in some models. a lot of the DIY crowd loves the crazy desktop cases but apple gives you a nice aluminum case and people hate it. the nice 80 PLUS or better power supplies are standard. no crapware

"You've read" huh...and would that be on some Apple forum maybe? And just because Apple wants to charge mindless drones $100 for their aluminum case that it costs them anywhere near that, or for that matter much more than any others? Seriously some bland white case is supposed to be a plus? Power supplies maybe but still insignificant cost differences...and crapware is almost non-existent now, I've helped setup a ton of new laptops for co-workers recently and have been surprised how little trial BS comes on them nowadays, you might have had an argument for that 5 years or so ago but not now.

 

[Joseph F]

Good thing we have an Apple forum, so that this bleached bone dead horse argument can spiral for eternity with all the circle jerk threads. Wait this is off topic? I guess my sadomasochism is kicking in again, even skimming this thread hurt. So yeah, it really is great that this thread is not on the topic of Apple, and gets to stay here in OT. Alfa, you are a cry baby to ZV's well thought out responses and zero personal attacks. I loved the "I'm outta here" attitude and then continuing to post in the thread, textbook example of a e-temper tantrum.

Yeah, I love it when people get in a tantrum when their views are challenged.
(I've done this myself, before anyone links to it)

 

[alent1234]

"You've read" huh...and would that be on some Apple forum maybe? And just because Apple wants to charge mindless drones $100 for their aluminum case that it costs them anywhere near that, or for that matter much more than any others? Seriously some bland white case is supposed to be a plus? Power supplies maybe but still insignificant cost differences...and crapware is almost non-existent now, I've helped setup a ton of new laptops for co-workers recently and have been surprised how little trial BS comes on them nowadays, you might have had an argument for that 5 years or so ago but not now.

so what about antec and some of the other "performance" parts. UL numbers have proven they just rebrand some chinese factory's power supplies or some other cheap part

i also like the part that if i need to i can go to one of the 5 apple stores within 20 minutes of where i live or work and talk to a real human being that speaks clear english. not call and have to wait in a phone queue only to have to play the script game again. I get it enough calling HP server support

 

[corwin]

so what about antec and some of the other "performance" parts. UL numbers have proven they just rebrand some chinese factory's power supplies or some other cheap part

SO you're admitting that Apple is just re-branding the same thing other manufacturers use but trying to rationalize it by saying there's some who do it for PC parts as well? You really giving up that easy?

 

[kevinsbane]

so what about antec and some of the other "performance" parts. UL numbers have proven they just rebrand some chinese factory's power supplies or some other cheap part

I suppose Apple does not?

 

[alent1234]

Sorry I wasn't trying to imply they were completely different, and Honda in particular shares a lot of parts between their two tiers, but this mainly happens at the bottom of the "luxury" line and the top of the "regular". While I agree that there is probably a bit of the price that goes into the badge, I doubt it is really a large amount, and luxury dealer networks definitely cost more to operate than "peon" brands. You are suggesting that Nissan, Honda, and Toyota are all colluding to artificially to take huge profit margins just by slapping a badge on a car? While that is happening these 3 luxo marques are facing stiffer competition across the board from the Korean brands, GM, Ford, European, heck even cannibalizing their own sales with their "peon" brand (why buy an ES300 when an Avalon is almost as good).

The intricacies of car manufacturing and sales is much more complex than computers, which is why I believe it to be a bad analogy.

Even in your post above you try to strengthen it by saying they use the best Intel chipsets. So what, as far as I know, Intel still sells those chipsets to other OEMs. By the way Apple hardware usually has inferior price/GPU performance, so I am not sure where you were going with the premium part tangent.

You can't buy a Camry with a 3UZ-FE engine, or a Civic with a C30A. Apple is taking more or less off the shelf hardware and packaging it in a sleek solid feeling case. PC OEMs have seen their success and copied ideas here and there, and almost always do it for a lower price.

can't compare to alienware but comparing a XPS the macbook price/gpu is just fine. i checked the benchmarks and the 1GB ATI outperformed the 2GB nvidia chip in the XPS sometime last year when the MBP refresh first happened

by the time you configure the XPS with Windows Ultimate, photo/movie software, extra battery and other things the price is close enough to a MBP that a lot of people will just buy the MBP

 

[kevinsbane]

by the time you configure the XPS with Windows Ultimate, photo/movie software, extra battery and other things the price is close enough to a MBP that a lot of people will just buy the MBP

What does Windows Ultimate have that makes it necessary? What photo/movie software? Why an extra battery? I'm confused why those are needed.

 

[alent1234]

AD support like OS X has along with encryption

iphoto and imovie. dell and HP will charge you $80 to $120 for the adobe versions

there is also garage band but i never use it

MBP's have around 7 hours of battery. to get a dell or HP to that you have to buy the extra batteries

the GPU might be a bit weaker but there are other features that if you were to buy another brand you would have to pay extra for

 

[kevinsbane]

AD support like OS X has along with encryption

iphoto and imovie.

Active directory support is present in Windows 7 Professional, you don't need Win 7 Ultimate. Variants of iphoto and imovie are already present in Windows; Windows live movie maker ~= imovie, and iphoto ~= windows live photo gallery. Both of which are free. And sort of come with Windows 7. Adobe versions have much greater capabilities than imovie or iphoto (and windows live movie maker and windows live photo gallery).

MBP's have around 7 hours of battery. to get a dell or HP to that you have to buy the extra batteries

Reviews I see show that Dell's 14z gets around 5.5H of battery. So the MBP does get more battery life (~1 H based on reviews); not exactly an extra battery's worth, but yes, MBP does have superior (+20%) battery life.

EDIT: Made a mistake, missed encryption. Directory level encryption is available natively in Win7 Pro via Encrypting File System, but if you need Bitlocker (full disk encryption) you do need Win7 Ultimate.

 

[lokiju]

I'll one up you OP, Logitech will just ship you a new replacement and not worry about sending the old one back.

Logitech > *

**Unless it's a Harmony remote**

Logitech has been great to me and has even replaced keyboards and mice way well out of warranty.

I called them once years ago to see if they had any updated drivers for a old mouse I had. The mouse was well out of warranty and I wasn't even looking for anything other than if they had a new driver.

They offered to send me a new model mouse and told me I didn't have to ship back the old one.

That was awesome.

On the flip side, I have one Harmony remote that I've been using for ages and got around to getting another one for my bedroom which just does not seem to communicate well with my TV for some damn reason. I have to hit the power button over and over and over to get it to turn on or off. Its just the Harmony, the factory remote, the Dish Network universal remote both work as expected.

Called Logitech to see if they had any suggestions or tweaks on it and not only did they not they wouldn't exchange it either as it worked with everything BUT the TV without issue.

WTF Logitech?

So I've had both extremes with them.

I'll still buy their mice and keyboards but will not so eagerly buy another Harmony remote before looking for an alternative brand.

 

[corwin]

Active directory support is present in Windows 7 Professional, you don't need Win 7 Ultimate. Variants of iphoto and imovie are already present in Windows; Windows live movie maker ~= imovie, and iphoto ~= windows live photo gallery. Both of which are free. And sort of come with Windows 7. Adobe versions have much greater capabilities than imovie or iphoto (and windows live movie maker and windows live photo gallery).



Reviews I see show that Dell's 14z gets around 5.5H of battery. So the MBP does get more battery life (~1 H based on reviews); not exactly an extra battery's worth, but yes, MBP does have superior (+20%) battery life.

I'm sure he would appreciate it if you stopped poking holes in all his arguments, it's making him look bad...and you know what image means to Apple fans

 

[mafia]

I am comparing to my Lenovo Thinkpad X220.

And don't forget, the ThinkPads are such good quality laptops that they are the only production laptops certified by NASA for use in space. So if you get stuck in space, your MBP will be useless. Think about that the next time you go to a Apple store.

<--- T420 owner

 

[rh71]

I'd have to agree Logitech has great customer service.

++

my gaming headset wouldn't work on one side since I kept accidentally pulling on the wire (gotta hate that) and they sent me a better one after I produced the receipt. I still have the old one, which my dad fixed, so now I have 2 great products. I'd also say Lenovo is up there as well. Their CS reps were in Atlanta and spoke clear English! Logitech's too for that matter.

And don't forget, the ThinkPads are such good quality laptops that they are the only production laptops certified by NASA for use in space. So if you get stuck in space, your MBP will be useless. Think about that the next time you go to a Apple store.

<--- T420 owner

Had the old IBM Thinkpads (A21m, etc.) for work and then a T40(?) and now a Lenovo W500. You can tell it's not as solidly built anymore... the plastic actually has some give to it now. Keys are also cheaper. Unfortunate, but still above the rest.

**Unless it's a Harmony remote**

Always see refurbished Harmony remotes out there... kinda scary that they still go for $100+ after that.

 

[alent1234]

I'm sure he would appreciate it if you stopped poking holes in all his arguments, it's making him look bad...and you know what image means to Apple fans

Ok I concede

It's mass hysteria that apple's computer sales are growing at double digit rates while those of wintel are shrinking. People must be getting high before buying a computer these days

 

[SSSnail]

Ok I concede

It's mass hysteria that apple's computer sales are growing at double digit rates while those of wintel are shrinking. People must be getting high before buying a computer these days

Don't forget my criteria, that just means there are lots of people with no clues, have no money but want to look cool at starbucks, and just generally stupid out there (baristas, social study students, etc...). The small amount of people with more money than brain notwithstanding, my laws govern.

Now you, we've already worked out that you have no clues, just deciding on if you have more money than brain, or a poseur, I'm gonna go with the latter.

 

[Ns1]

Ok I concede

PC vs Apple debates are always a losing battle.

 

[Puddle Jumper]

Ok I concede

It's mass hysteria that apple's computer sales are growing at double digit rates while those of wintel are shrinking. People must be getting high before buying a computer these days

Wintel really isn't accurate anymore since Apple sells Intel PCs just like everyone else now.

 

[alent1234]

Ok, windows based pc sales are shrinking and os x based ones are growing

Same basic functionality for the same basic tasks. And os x computers are sold at higher price points.

People are even buying $2200 MacBooks to use at worK

 

[alent1234]

Dupe

 

[Puddle Jumper]

Ok, windows based pc sales are shrinking and os x based ones are growing

Same basic functionality for the same basic tasks. And os x computers are sold at higher price points.

People are even buying $2200 MacBooks to use at worK

If those people are spending $2200 of their own money on a laptop to bring to work they are likely morons. I can kind of see taking a system to work if the company one you have sucks enough that it makes your job difficult but buying a loaded MBP is a stupid way to fill that need. A powerful SFF desktop or even a PC laptop half that price would accomplish the same end result.

 

[Crono]

We need a thread titled "**OFFICIAL** Apple vs Microsoft Et Al.: The Ongoing Battle" and just leave that open forever. Then a mod can warn users and lock threads that get derailed.

 

[natto fire]

Ok, windows based pc sales are shrinking and os x based ones are growing

Same basic functionality for the same basic tasks. And os x computers are sold at higher price points.

People are even buying $2200 MacBooks to use at worK

OSX based machines have really only been viable as PC replacements for 6 years, where Windows based machines have been sold for much longer.(Installed base is much higher) Apple selling PCs could only go up from when they pulled their heads out of their asses and dropped PowerPC. The desktop PC market is really saturated now which is why there is such a rush to portable computing, so either way PC sales are not as relevant any more. Of course Apple got that right with the iPad as far as sales are concerned, why they didn't expect other companies to follow is beyond me. I have never owned a tablet or really even used them that much, nor have much desire to at this point, so I cannot comment much there.

No one is arguing that Macbooks can't be used for work, people have probably driven Vipers to pick up a quart of milk from the corner store(car analogy!) All computers have gotten so fast now that you have to work in a specialized field to really need anything beyond a basic 500-750 laptop for most work. Heck from reading ATOT, it seems like most white collar work is just trolling these forums and streaming videos, don't need a $2200 MBP to do that.

We need a thread titled "**OFFICIAL** Apple vs Microsoft Et Al.: The Ongoing Battle" and just leave that open forever. Then a mod can warn users and lock threads that get derailed.

Agreed, this one is relatively civil IMO. I have nothing personal against people that prefer Apple stuff, I have used it a lot and actually like a lot about the whole experience. I can get by with my cheapo PC for now though.

 

[kevinsbane]

Ok, windows based pc sales are shrinking and os x based ones are growing

Very good for Apple. And they can charge a premium too. Very smart business; alas, not so good for the consumer. Wish they would charge less of a premium for their stuff, then I'd get over my distaste over Apple's (IMO) overly expensive stuff and maybe buy some.

Same basic functionality for the same basic tasks. And os x computers are sold at higher price points.

People are even buying $2200 MacBooks to use at worK

People aren't buying $2200 Macbooks because Macbooks have superior technology or superior value at the moment. MBP and MBA do have many things going for them; no one disputes that. I don't dispute that. It's just not specs and value.

It's not my intention to poke holes in your argument, but make sure that people are under no illusion as to what the primary shortcoming of Apple stuff is: it's expensive. Whether or not the price is worth it is up to you, but don't say "specs!" as a reason why it's worth it. When looking at specs alone, it isn't.